Questions for Sabbath practitioners

[BobRyan]

I still cannot work out why we pray to Mary though. The woman passed on a lvery ong time ago and she is in the queue waiting just like all the others who have passed on.....

Amen

All have sinned - Romans 3:23.
So then ALL (even Mary ) need the Gospel and all have Christ as Savior if they choose to accept the Gospel. Mary calls God her Savior.

Everyone is going to stand before the Great Judge some day. Each & every man shall stand & present that which they have.

Exactly what 2 Corinthians 5:10 says - that each one will be judged based on the deeds done in the body "whether Good or evil". Not just "the good deeds".

And of course the reward for evil is stated in Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death". If our sins are not covered by the blood of the lamb when we stand before God's judgment (the judgment seat of Christ) then the reward is not eternal life.

Matt 7 Jesus says "by their fruits you shall know them" - when we stand before God's judgment seat - the fact that we are a transformed, born-again "good tree" -- is proven in the fruit of that tree. Romans 2:4-16 goes into a lot of detail about just how certain that statement of Christ is - in the judgement. Particularly Romans 2:13

Now, if we fed ourselves with the wrong word, tough! It will then mean, Christ shall not be able to stand on our behalf. We shall have to explain how & why we believed in twisted doctrines.

I wonder what strategy we will use to escape God's wrath on that day.....

The Bible says "God is not mocked" whatever a man sows that shall he also reap. Romans 2:4-16 says this rule is followed in the future day of judgment "according to my gospel when God will judge all mankind through Christ Jesus" Romans 2:16

 

[expos4ever]

Laws related to penal codes under a legitimate Theocracy such as was in place under Moses - are not always applicable outside of a theocracy. Laws against Sabbath breaking are a good example of laws not applicable outside of a legitimate theocracy.

The same is true for several of the TEN commandments such as "do not take God's name in vain". Not being subject to the death penalty outside of a legitimate theocracy

Have you made an actual case that such laws are not applicable outside of a legitimate theocracy? In this particular post, you appear to merely assert this. Could I not use your very line of argument to suggest that since, as per your position, we are not under legitimate theocracy, the law of Moses, including the 10, do not apply?

I believe you face a further challenge. As I read my new testament, it seems to me that Jesus has already been installed as the true lord of the world. So in the biblical sense, we are now in a theocracy.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Laws related to penal codes under a legitimate Theocracy such as was in place under Moses - are not always applicable outside of a theocracy. Laws against Sabbath breaking are a good example of laws not applicable outside of a legitimate theocracy.

The same is true for several of the TEN commandments such as "do not take God's name in vain". Not being subject to the death penalty outside of a legitimate theocracy

Have you made an actual case that such laws are not applicable outside of a legitimate theocracy?

Its called "religious liberty" -- render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and render to God the things that are God's.
Rome could not banish Christian worship and be called "innocent".
Christians in the NT do not call for the death penalty against any of their members for teaching false doctrine.

In this particular post, you appear to merely assert this. Could I not use your very line of argument to suggest that since, as per your position, we are not under legitimate theocracy, the law of Moses, including the 10, do not apply?

My statement was laws " in place under Moses - are not always applicable " when it comes to civil laws outside of a theocracy.
And EVEN under the Law of Moses "Coveting" had no civil penalty attached to it - even though it is a sin.
In Lev 18 God lists sins for which any nation will be held accountable by God -- but notice what is missing from Lev 18
1. the worship of false gods
2. taking God's name in vain
3. Making images / idols of the true God or a false God.
4. Sabbath breaking

The commands regarding worship of the true God are not applicable to civil-law outside of a theocracy. Religious liberty is the rule of man in those cases including the liberty to be an atheist or a Hindu etc.

So then Leviticus is written at a time when a real - legitimate theocracy was on Earth (Israel) - yet these exemptions for nations that were not Israel held up - such that God was not commanding nations outside of Israel to have that as civil law.

I believe you face a further challenge. As I read my new testament, it seems to me that Jesus has already been installed as the true lord of the world.

Until you read 2 Cor 4:4 "The god of this world" still blinds the eyes of unbelievers.

At His Trial Jesus tells the civil ruler of his area in Jerusalem "my kingdom is NOT of this world - else my followers would fight so I would not be taken prisoner".

So in the biblical sense, we are now in a theocracy.

No - that does not happen until nation declares God to be their civil ruler/king and God alone is the author of their legal code. We have not seen that happen since the time of Moses when God gave the books of Exodus and Leviticus via divine revelation.

 

[splish- splash]

Amen

All have sinned - Romans 3:23.
So then ALL (even Mary ) need the Gospel and all have Christ as Savior if they choose to accept the Gospel. Mary calls God her Savior.

Exactly what 2 Corinthians 5:10 says - that each one will be judged based on the deeds done in the body "whether Good or evil". Not just "the good deeds".

And of course the reward for evil is stated in Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death". If our sins are not covered by the blood of the lamb when we stand before God's judgment (the judgment seat of Christ) then the reward is not eternal life.

Matt 7 Jesus says "by their fruits you shall know them" - when we stand before God's judgment seat - the fact that we are a transformed, born-again "good tree" -- is proven in the fruit of that tree. Romans 2:4-16 goes into a lot of detail about just how certain that statement of Christ is - in the judgement. Particularly Romans 2:13

The Bible says "God is not mocked" whatever a man sows that shall he also reap. Romans 2:4-16 says this rule is followed in the future day of judgment "according to my gospel when God will judge all mankind through Christ Jesus" Romans 2:16

Brother Bob, was it you & your Colleague, that I had a bit of a debate with a while back on another thread, when you were defending Adventism and Mrs Ellen G. White? If so, we seem to be in agreement though there, regarding the issue on Gentiles & Israelites.

This then brings me to this question, have you & your colleague left Adventism or have you decided to stay, if you don't mind me asking ?

 

[Aaron112]

As I read my new testament, it seems to me that Jesus has already been installed as the true lord of the world. So in the biblical sense, we are now in a theocracy.

Not in the Bible regarding today in the world, no. No theocracy presently on earth, no, not one.

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Bob, was it you & your Colleague, that I had a bit of a debate with a while back on another thread, when you were defending Adventism and Mrs Ellen G. White?

I know I have had those discussions before but I am not sure I recall the one you are referencing.
As for Ellen White - I do agree that the Bible has a teaching in 1 Cor 12 and Numbers 12 on the gift of prophecy.

If so, we seem to be in agreement though there, regarding the issue on Gentiles & Israelites.

Indeed - God's New Covenant is made with Israel and the house of Judah - but not because the gospel is not for gentiles - but rather it is the Romans 2 "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly" principle. So then all mankind qualify such that those who accept the gospel are under the New Covenant no matter if they are Jew or gentile.

This then brings me to this question, have you & your colleague left Adventism or have you decided to stay, if you don't mind me asking ?

Well I have never argued against the actual published doctrine of the Adventist denomination, but sometimes my understanding of a detail may differ with a fellow Adventist now and then.

 

[splish- splash]

Maybe it wasn't you. My bad sorry!

 

[expos4ever]

Not in the Bible regarding today in the world, no. No theocracy presently on earth, no, not one.

Did Jesus not say that the Kingdom was at hand? Did he also not say "If I cast out demons by the spirit of God (and He did) then the Kingdom of heaven has come to you"?.

The kingdom is of course not yet fully realized, but I suggest the broad biblical picture is clear: it has indeed been inaugurated.

 

[Aaron112]

Did Jesus not say that the Kingdom was at hand? Did he also not say "If I cast out demons by the spirit of God (and He did) then the Kingdom of heaven has come to you"?.

The kingdom is of course not yet fully realized, but I suggest the broad biblical picture is clear: it has indeed been inaugurated.

So? Nothing to do with a theocracy on earth.

I think Bob posted what a theocracy on earth would be/ or be like.

Nothing in existence politically, culturally, socially, religiously, or in any way a theocracy on earth today.

 

[Aaron112]

Excerpts re theocracy>

Laws related to penal codes under a legitimate Theocracy such as was in place under Moses - are not always applicable outside of a theocracy. Laws against Sabbath breaking are a good example of laws not applicable outside of a legitimate theocracy.

Under a Theocracy (such as in the OT and such as we do not find at all in the NT age) -- God was king of the nation, wrote the civil laws and had the "death penalty" for things like gluttony, Sabbath breaking, worship of false gods etc.

If someone was a criminal and so killed someone - then that person was killed instead of "sent to jail"

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe it wasn't you. My bad sorry!

I do remember someone on a thread similar to what you mentioned who now says they realize their beliefs have been more in line with Seventh-day Baptists than with Adventists. (Something that I think a few Adventists had also mentioned to him in times past). I think he is investigating a path directed at joining with the SDB denomination.

 

[expos4ever]

So? Nothing to do with a theocracy on earth.

I think Bob posted what a theocracy on earth would be/ or be like.

Nothing in existence politically, culturally, socially, religiously, or in any way a theocracy on earth today.

If, as I claim, the scriptural case is clear that Jesus has been installed as the Lord over all creation, how is that not a theocracy?

You did not respond to the specific texts I provided, please do so.

 

[Aaron112]

If, as I claim, the scriptural case is clear that Jesus has been installed as the Lord over all creation, how is that not a theocracy?

You did not respond to the specific texts I provided, please do so.

You , to me, are not making correct sense even of what a theocracy is.

What 'group' if any do you associate your reasonings of this with ?

Knowing that, if you dare to give it, will in large part take away all of your arguments, I think.

 

[expos4ever]

You , to me, are not making correct sense even of what a theocracy is.

What 'group' if any do you associate your reasonings of this with ?

Knowing that, if you dare to give it, will in large part take away all of your arguments, I think.

A theocracy, to me, is simply a state of affairs where God is truly the ruler of the world, whether people accept it or not. It seems to me that you (and others) are forced into a position of having to come up with a highly restrictive and unnatural definition of what a theocracy is in order to avoid having to say we need to impose the harsh penalties for violating certain elements of the Law of Moses that you believe are still in force. In other words, it appears that you want to argue that we are still obligated to obey elements of the Law but that, because we are not a true theocracy - by your definition of course - there is no warrant to apply the penalties. This seems like a rather awkward rationalization to me: you seem to want the "you must do X" elements of a theocracy, yet without having the associated penalties in force. That seems like cherry-picking to me.

And what is the relevance of "my group" to any of this? In the past, when posters have disagreed with me about something, they have sometimes inquired after my denominational affiliation. That is clearly a strategy of evasion - if my position is Biblically correct, it does not matter one whit what church I am affiliated with. And, in fact, I have no denominational affiliation of any kind - I am simply a garden-vareity Christian believer who takes the Scripture seriously.

And with that in mind, I plan to write some more posts where I make a Biblical case that, in the Biblical sense, we are, in fact, living in a theocracy.

And, again: Did Jesus not say that the Kingdom was at hand? Did he also not say "If I cast out demons by the spirit of God (and He did) then the Kingdom of heaven has come to you"?

 

[Aaron112]

So you don't have any idea what a theocracy is then?
No worries.
This too shall pass.

Making up your own definition/ description of a theocracy that is not at all even similar to
what it was throughout history by definition without argument,
and when God's people were a theocracy... just doesn't make good at all.

God's Kingdom as in the NT, and today, is not at all what a theocracy is; best to find out now, today, ongoing.

 

[expos4ever]

So you don't have any idea what a theocracy is then?
No worries.
This too shall pass.

Condescension noted. Please explain precisely what you believe a theocracy to be. If your argument is defensible, then presumably it will undercut my understanding.

Making up your own definition/ description of a theocracy that is not at all even similar to
what it was throughout history by definition without argument,
and when God's people were a theocracy... just doesn't make good at all.

God's Kingdom as in the NT, and today, is not at all what a theocracy is; best to find out now, today, ongoing.

Can you provide a Biblical account of what a theocracy is? People throughout history can invent all the definitions they like, but what matters is what the Scriptures teach. And I suggest that, Scripturally, we are in a theocracy right now.

What is theocracy if not a state of affairs where God is enthroned as the true lord of the world? And enthroned He is as I will argue following:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Peter and John pray in response to the actions of the religious leaders. The prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2 - not a co-incidence:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD and against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. And more to the point, the Acts text shows that He is a king over nations – so this is not the “heavenly” kingdom so many imagine, it is a kingdom of this present world.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting political King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares?

Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.

 

[BobRyan]

If, as I claim, the scriptural case is clear that Jesus has been installed as the Lord over all creation, how is that not a theocracy?

Theocracy is about the civil government - the civil law makers, the courts etc being dictated by God.

So if God comes down and dictates court decisions, writes laws , show up in the sanctuary in a pillar of fire or in the Most Holy Place in glory, answers by Urim and Thumim etc -- then He is literally running the civil government. As in the case of Israel.

If you claim this is going on with all nations on planet Earth today -- then you need to provide some sort of evidence of that happening.
=============================================================

But if you claim is that at a higher level - even the demons have to get permission from God to do their evil just as Jesus said to Peter that Satan desired to sift him as wheat but Christ prayed that Peter's faith fail not... So then this has always been true starting with Adam and Eve outside the garden of Eden... then we do agree on that.

But that is not an example of God dictating the civil law of all nations as if God was the one banning Christianity in communist and atheist countries etc.

 

[expos4ever]

BobRyan said:

Laws related to penal codes under a legitimate Theocracy such as was in place under Moses - are not always applicable outside of a theocracy. Laws against Sabbath breaking are a good example of laws not applicable outside of a legitimate theocracy.

You say that laws against Sabbath breaking are not applicable outside a "legitimate theocracy". Did you really mean that laws against Sabbath breaking are not subject to punishment for violation outside a "legitimate theocracy"? It seems that this must be what you meant as I am quite sure from other posts of yours that you believe the Sabbath laws do indeed "apply" in the current world.

But, again, I see no specifically scriptural argument here for saying we should not receive the punishment for breaking the laws that you believe still apply. It appears you believe that people should not be punished for breaking that Sabbath and you buttress that claim by saying, although I find your wording a little unclear, that the punishments don't apply since we are not under a "legitimate theocracy". But why, Biblically, should a reader believe we are any less under a theocracy than was the case back in the time of Moses?

Its called "religious liberty" -- render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and render to God the things that are God's.

I hope to get back to this as a full response will be rather lengthy.

In Lev 18 God lists sins for which any nation will be held accountable by God -- but notice what is missing from Lev 18
1. the worship of false gods
2. taking God's name in vain
3. Making images / idols of the true God or a false God.
4. Sabbath breaking

Lev 18 simply lists certain laws and asserts that punishment will be forthcoming if such laws are not obeyed. But it most certainly does not follow logically that this list is exhaustive - you appear to be arguing thus:

- Lev 18 lists a set of laws (call that set "S") and warns of punishment for not obeying laws in S
- Therefore, laws that are not in S - like the Sabbath Laws - are not to be punished.

If this is your reasoning, it is highly suspect.

 

[BobRyan]

And what does Psalm2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King.

No doubt Psalms 2 was written at a time when that theocracy existed.

And more to the point, the Acts text shows that He is a king over nations – so this is not the “heavenly” kingdom so many imagine, it is a kingdom of this present world.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting political King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares?

Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.

Daniel 2 and 5 also state that God sets limits on nations and Lev 18 shows how God wiped out pagan godless nations in Canaan.

But they don't show God passing laws, or writing laws that godless pagan nations vote on , pass through their assemblies etc. Such things do not happen on planet Earth.

 

[BobRyan]

But, again, I see no specifically scriptural argument here for saying we should not receive the punishment for breaking the laws that you believe still apply. It appears you believe that people should not be punished for breaking that Sabbath

True. So no matter what nation it is that want to declare what day is the Sabbath -- it is evil, sin etc to pass laws for killing a person for violating whatever day the picked as Sabbath. It is a violation of religious liberty, sin.

No NT writer calls for civil penalties against anyone who breaks a purely religious law related to what God they worship or what day they worship.

and you buttress that claim by saying, although I find your wording a little unclear

More than that - my point is that the details above make it clear.

, that the punishments don't apply since we are not under a "legitimate theocracy". But why, Biblically, should a reader believe we are any less under a theocracy than was the case back in the time of Moses?

Do you see the pillar of fire above your capital building , above your church? Do you see urim and thumim with your priests getting direct responses from God on the issues that come before them? Do you see God himself dictating your civil laws or the laws of the communist nations. Even U.S. laws make it very clear that some of them most certainly are not authored by the God of the Bible.