Questions for Sabbath practitioners

[daq]

And why, pray tell, is this organization qualified to settle a dispute that has raged unabated for centuries?

You are aware of the "appeal to authority" fallacy, aren't you?


Another strawman seasoned with a tad of ad hominem.

Ask the OP, I am not the one appealing to the authority of the Pharisees and trying to foist their interpretations upon those of us whom the Messiah has set free from their works of the Law. He won the dispute over the proper interpretation of the Torah. Why can you still not hear my words?

As for the questions I asked: duly noted that you have no response.

 

[expos4ever]

So the Torah can be "honourably retired" according to your spin but you have never written anything like what you just said?

I am not sure what you are asking me - can you please reframe your request?

Still don't know who I spoke of even after I quoted the Matthew passage? It isn't rocket science: someone was raised from the dead in that passage and the Father sent His messenger to announce it.

Here is the Matthew passage. Where is there anything here that speaks to the matter of the status of the Law?

2 And see, there was a great earthquake, for a messenger of יהוה came down out of heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
3 And his appearance was like lightning, and his garments as white as snow.
4 And the guards trembled for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 And the messenger responding, said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek יהושע who was impaled.
6 “He is not here, for He was raised, as He said. Come, see the place where the Master lay.

 

[Leaf473]

Lazarus is a Greek form of the name Eleazar.

However you mixed up the allegory/metaphor: poke, poke, would be much better suited for plucking out the eye that causes one to stumble, (that your eye be single, as the Master says), which is the like analogy with the ear/ears. One ear hears one thing: two ears are divided and the man becomes double-minded. Understand the Testimony of the Master and the understanding the Torah begins to unfold.

But reading on,
Harass the Midianites, and strike them; 18 for they harassed you with their wiles, wherein they have deceived you in the matter of Peor

 

[expos4ever]

Please post any passage of scripture that says the Messiah came to "honourably retire the Law".

Before I answer this question, I will express my objection to the way you framed it.

It may not be intentional on your part, but you are imposing an invalid restriction on what "counts" as Biblical evidence - you are asking for "a passage".

This does great injustice to the Scriptures - it effectively muzzles Scripture from speaking to us through the mechanism of narrative.

And scripture is nothing if not narrative.

Let me illustrate by example: there is no "text" that says Sunday is the "new" Lord's day. But let him with ears, hear and him with eyes, see.

Jesus rises on a Sunday! Paul clearly interprets this as evidence of a new creation that leaves the old creation behind! Why honour the old work of God when a new work has begun?

We can legitimately reach a conclusion based on the logic of the narrative - we have, hopefully, got past the Sunday School stage where positions can only be established "by verse".

 

[expos4ever]

Please post any passage of scripture that says the Messiah came to "honourably retire the Law".

Now to address this requests even though, as any Biblically literate reader will know, is posed in a manner that illicitly restricts what counts as legitimate Biblical evidence.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and we in the modern west have been careless in understanding the implications. On a surface reading, a text like Luke 16:17 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which declare the abolition of the Law of Moses. Here is Matthew's version:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and think that the Law of Moses has been set aside, given that heaven and earth are still here?

There is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul so forcefully argues (e.g. Eph 2:15): In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor?

It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

 

[expos4ever]

Moreover, if "the mission" of the Torah has already been accomplished, so that it can be "honourably retired" by you, then why does Paul say that the Torah has become our tutor or schoolmaster unto Messiah?

When was the last time you tried to "honourably retire" your tutor or schoolmaster before you graduated from your schooling? How did that work out for you?

This text (Galatians 3) is not a text that helps you. Let's look at the text:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The guardian here, of course, is the Law.

Now we will all watch as you try to convince us that the Law is only retired in a highly limited sense. Well, of course, Paul does not qualify his statement. But no doubt you will.

Much like how, in service of your position, many will argue that when Paul says we have been released from the Law (Romans 7), we have really only been released from the role of the law in judging us, but that we still have to follow it.

Funny, though, Paul says we have been released. Period.

Furthermore, the Greek word "paidagogos" is used in this text from Galatians and is translated as guardian.

What is a paidagogos? It is a form of male babysitter that care care of the young until they come of age.

What happens to the paidagogos then?

Guess what: they are out of a job. I trust the point is clear.

 

[daq]

Here is the Matthew passage. Where is there anything here that speaks to the matter of the status of the Law?

Where is there a question about the status of the law in what you asked me to begin with? You asked me who declared the winner and I answered you. Then you did not accept the resurrection as evidence for who was declared the winner and who declared it. Now you are confounding the discussion which appears to be one of your defense mechanisms.

It would appear that you are unaware who won the war over the interpretation of the Torah.

Who "declared" the winner?

HE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO SHALL BE.

Come on now, a real answer please.

You do not accept the Father as a "real answer"? He declared it through His Messenger:

Matthew 28:2-6 TS2009
2 And see, there was a great earthquake, for a messenger of יהוה came down out of heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
3 And his appearance was like lightning, and his garments as white as snow.
4 And the guards trembled for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 And the messenger responding, said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek יהושע who was impaled.
6 “He is not here, for He was raised, as He said. Come, see the place where the Master lay.

Did you read somewhere that Ananus ben Seth and Kaiaphas and the Sandhedrin Elders were raised from the dead? Their handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees were nailed to the stake. At least believe Paul for goodness sake.

 

[daq]

But reading on,
Harass the Midianites, and strike them; 18 for they harassed you with their wiles, wherein they have deceived you in the matter of Peor

That's right, put them to death, mortify, mortify, mortify: cut them off before they choke the seed of the Word from the soil of your heart. Chop, chop.

 

[daq]

This text (Galatians 3) is not a text that helps you. Let's look at the text:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The guardian here, of course, is the Law.

Now we will all watch as you try to convince us that the Law is only retired in a highly limited sense. Well, of course, Paul does not qualify his statement. But no doubt you will.

Much like how, in service of your position, many will argue that when Paul says we have been released from the Law (Romans 7), we have really only been released from the role of the law in judging us, but that we still have to follow it.

Funny, though, Paul says we have been released. Period.

Furthermore, the Greek word "paidagogos" is used in this text from Galatians and is translated as guardian.

What is a paidagogos? It is a form of male babysitter that care care of the young until they come of age.

What happens to the paidagogos then?

Guess what: they are out of a job. I trust the point is clear.

The problem is that you appear to have skipped the whole training process for becoming a son in your doctrine, (which is the typical result of mainstream anti-Torah theology), and have counted yourself a son without having undergone the training process prescribed in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, and also by Paul himself here in this passage.

The passage doesn't end with Galatians 3:29, in fact, the conclusion to what he is actually saying has been cut off by the man-made chapter break between chapters three and four.

Galatians 1:1-2 TS2009
1 Sha’ul, an emissary – not from men, nor by a man, but by יהושע Messiah and Elohim the Father who raised Him from the dead –
2 and all the brothers who are with me,* to the assemblies of Galatia:

*Galatians 3:23-25, we*, our*, we*,
Paul "and all the brothers who are with me"

Galatians 3:21-4:2 TS2009
21 Is the Torah then against the promises of Elohim? Let it not be! For if a torah had been given that was able to make alive, truly righteousness would have been by Torah.
22 But the Scripture has shut up all mankind under sin, that the promise by belief in יהושע Messiah might be given to those who believe.
23 But before belief came, we* were being guarded under Torah, having been shut up for the belief being about to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Torah became our* trainer unto Messiah, in order to be declared right by belief.
25 And after belief has come, we* are no longer under a trainer.
26 For you are all sons of Elohim through belief in Messiah יהושע.
27 For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah.
28 There is not Yehuḏi nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah יהושע.
29 And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.
01 And I say, for as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, though he is master of all,
02 but is under guardians and trustees till the time prearranged by the father.

So then, having entered into the faith, one is counted as a babe or child "in the milk of the Word", though he or she be set to become a master of all, having been counted as an heir.

But until that time, the time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a tried and tested son, the babe or child is under a trainer, (the Torah), and is under guardians and trustees, (Prophets and Writings).

Moreover the heir is according to the promise, (Galatians 3:29), but the promise cannot be received unless and until one has done the will of Elohim. This is expounded for us in Hebrews 10:35-39, and Paul also speaks of doing the will of Elohim, by way of the commandments of the Master, in 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8.

This is not me inserting my paradigm into the text. This is simply a straight reading of what Paul is teaching here.

 

[daq]

Now to address this requests even though, as any Biblically literate reader will know, is posed in a manner that illicitly restricts what counts as legitimate Biblical evidence.

I quoted your own words: it is you who said that the Law may be "honourably retired".

Here they are again:

"My position, which would be well known to all those who have been following these raging disputations in other threads, is that Jesus "completes" the mission of the Law and hence the Law can be honourably retired."

Unfortunately your position is based only in suppositions and extrapolations from the writings of Paul and doesn't come from any plain outright statements found in the scripture.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and we in the modern west have been careless in understanding the implications.

Same mindset problem others often display:

...Moses was a bronze age lawgiver, giving bronze age laws to a bronze age people, blah, blah, blah...

The natural mind has no authority in interpreting supernal and spiritual texts.

On a surface reading, a text like Luke 16:17 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which declare the abolition of the Law of Moses.

Another of your supposition-extrapolations based on a misunderstanding of Paul. You will need to actually prove that Paul is teaching what you claim he is teaching in Ephesians 2:15. He isn't, and in fact, it has everything to do with what I have already been saying in this thread, which you have obviously outright rejected.

Ephesians 2:15 T/R
15 την εχθραν εν τη σαρκι αυτου τον νομον των εντολων εν δογμασι καταργησας ινα τους δυο κτιση εν εαυτω εις ενα καινον ανθρωπον ποιων ειρηνην

Ephesians 2:15 N/A-W/H
15 την εχθραν εν τη σαρκι αυτου τον νομον των εντολων εν δογμασιν καταργησας ινα τους δυο κτιση εν αυτω εις ενα καινον ανθρωπον ποιων ειρηνην

δογμασιν = dogma, plural, dogmas

The Torah is never stated to be dogma or dogmas. You've misread and misunderstood the text: and this is the same thing Paul says again in Colossians 2:14.

Colossians 2:14-15 TS2009
14 having blotted out that which was written by hand against us – by the dogmasd – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake. Footnote: dDogmas - also see Col 2:20 and Eph 2:15.
15 Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, He made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.

Now do you understand? Therefore I said to you, At least believe Paul, for these things are not Paul "honourably retiring" the Torah for you: no, they concern the handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees of the Sanhedrin Elders, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, whose handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees were against us, just as the Master himself teaches throughout the Gospel accounts. Just as he also overturns a number of their dogmas, injunctions, and sayings in Matthew 5, saying, "You have heard that it was said by them of old time...But I say..."

And Paul says he nailed their handwritten ordinances and dogmas to the stake, Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, he made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.

Why therefore do you side with those whom even Paul says lost the war in the debate over the true and proper interpretations of the Torah? It is because ultimately you seek only what is in your own best interest: and that is, as you have said, to "honourably retire" the Torah, and no doubt that is because you do not understand it.

The remainder of your post I may come back to but I think this post is now lengthy enough.

 

[expos4ever]

The above are your words. Then we have God's Word that say.....

• Luke 4:16 [16] And he (Jesus) came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

• Acts of the Apostles 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

We are best off to believe what the scriptures teach and God's Word is in disagreement with you here.

Take Care

The fact that Jesus observed the Sabbath does not, by itself, mean that He believes we should if, as has been argued by me and others, the Sabbath (and the Law more generally) comes to an end at the Cross.

And the fact that Paul elected to reason with people on the Sabbath is hardly evidence that he venerated the Sabbath. In fact, there is every reason to believe, he thought the Sabbath was in the rear-view mirror:

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a dnew moon or a Sabbath day— a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ

Now we all know you have an argument about this passage. Fine, we can revisit that if you like.

 

[Leaf473]

That's right, put them to death, mortify, mortify, mortify: cut them off before they choke the seed of the Word from the soil of your heart. Chop, chop.

and then in Leviticus,
When you come into the land, and have planted all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count their fruit as forbidden. For three years it shall be forbidden to you. It shall not be eaten. But in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, for giving praise to the Lord. In the fifth year you shall eat its fruit, that it may yield its increase to you. I am the Lord your God.

and
If anyone touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean animal, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and it is hidden from him, and he is unclean, then he shall be guilty.

 

[expos4ever]

The problem is that you appear to have skipped the whole training process for becoming a son in your doctrine, (which is the typical result of mainstream anti-Torah theology), and have counted yourself a son without having undergone the training process prescribed in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, and also by Paul himself here in this passage.

I suspected you would take this line. You believe this passage is speaking to the individual timeline of the each believer, explaining how we arrive at the point in our lives where we accept Christ. In so doing, you can argue that, in each of our lives, the law acts has a guardian on the way to this point. This enables you to maintain that the law is still in effect since the passage is about this trajectory of development in the life of each believer.

But that is clearly not what the passage is about as should be clear from verse 19:

Why the Law then? It was added on account of the violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made

And then this from verse 21:

For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness

Paul is not speaking about development within each Christian's life but rather about history. In verse 19, he asks why was the law added in the first place. In verse 21, he writes about the giving of the law. This is history: Paul is not analyzing individual believers life he's speaking about Gods evolving redemption narrative as it play out through history. So, when he says we are no longer under a guardian, he is referring to the fact that as of the advent of Christ, the law no longer applies.

I will address the rest of your post shortly.

 

[expos4ever]

The passage doesn't end with Galatians 3:29,....

So then, having entered into the faith, one is counted as a babe or child "in the milk of the Word", though he or she be set to become a master of all, having been counted as an heir.

You are, I suggest, making the same mistake here - analyzing the text as though Paul wants to talk about the trajectory of each of our lives. But, as earlier, in the chapter, he is still analyzing history. Note the reference to Abraham and his descendents in 3:29 as well as the "date set by the Father in 4:2. Even more tellingly we have this:

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son....

This is not about us developing as individuals - it is about God working through the long sweep of history.

 

[expos4ever]

Unfortunately your position is based only in suppositions and extrapolations from the writings of Paul and doesn't come from any plain outright statements found in the scripture.

You simply double-down on what is clearly an illegitimate restriction in what counts as Biblical evidence. And, of course, this restriction, illicit though it is, serves your position very well.

You likely know that Jesus says "come to me, all ye who are heavy-laden and I will give you rest." You are likely aware that this at least hints that Jesus is the "destination" of the Sabbath. You likely know that Paul uses "new creation" language in his writings, again suggesting that while the Sabbath rightly honoured the act of creation in Genesis, God has undertaken a new round of creative activity with the implications that the Sabbath, which honoured the first round of creation is now "obsolete". You likely know that Jesus, in a discussion of the Sabbath, says "I am working", strongly implying that things have changed about the Sabbath. And there is a lot more about the overall trajectory of the redemption narrative that will alert the attentive reader to the possibility that the Sabbath is now behind us.

Is there a single "verse" that says this? No. But the phrase "let him who has ears, let him hear" strongly hints that Biblical truth is not always set forth in simple bite-sized chunks.

There are no "plain outright statements" affirming the Trinity and yet almost all Christians affirm it as a Biblical doctrine.

 

[daq]

I suspected you would take this line. You believe this passage is speaking to the individual timeline of the each believer, explaining how we arrive at the point in our lives where we accept Christ. In so doing, you can argue that, in each of our lives, the law acts has a guardian on the way to this point. This enables you to maintain that the law is still in effect since the passage is about this trajectory of development in the life of each believer.

But that is clearly not what the passage is about as should be clear from verse 19:

Why the Law then? It was added on account of the violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made

And then this from verse 21:

For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness

Paul is not speaking about development within each Christian's life but rather about history. In verse 19, he asks why was the law added in the first place. In verse 21, he writes about the giving of the law. This is history: Paul is not analyzing individual believers life he's speaking about Gods evolving redemption narrative as it play out through history. So, when he says we are no longer under a guardian, he is referring to the fact that as of the advent of Christ, the law no longer applies.

I will address the rest of your post shortly.

It isn't me who is taking a particular line. The simple fact is that you chose not to believe what Paul plainly says.

Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Again, the chapter break is misleading: the above is the conclusion of what was said in the previous chapter. You can say that the above is only about history if you want but that is nothing more than an ill-informed opinion.

 

[daq]

You are, I suggest, making the same mistake here - analyzing the text as though Paul wants to talk about the trajectory of each of our lives. But, as earlier, in the chapter, he is still analyzing history. Note the reference to Abraham and his descendents in 3:29 as well as the "date set by the Father in 4:2. Even more tellingly we have this:

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son....

This is not about us developing as individuals - it is about God working through the long sweep of history.

Paul teaches these things as examples for all believers, and even Yakob, a.k.a James, uses the narrative of Abraham to teach the same things presented in Paul's teaching here.

James 2:21-24 KJV
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The scripture which says that Abraham's belief was counted unto him as righteousness is found in Genesis 15:6 and this was at least fifteen years before the birth of his son Yitzhak.

How many years do you suppose Genesis 15:6 was before Genesis 22, where Abraham was TESTED, and the Genesis 15:6 statement was FULFILLED?

 

[expos4ever]

Same mindset problem others often display:

...Moses was a bronze age lawgiver, giving bronze age laws to a bronze age people, blah, blah, blah...

The natural mind has no authority in interpreting supernal and spiritual texts.

Obvious evasion seasoned with some whataboutism. My argument is clear and, I believe, understandable - please address it.

Did the Jews or did they not have a tradition of using apocalyptic "end-of-the-world" language to speak metaphorically about events in the here and now? Does the Isaiah text I provided not do precisely this? Is it a mere coincidence that Jesus says the law will end "when all is accomplished" and that His last words are "It is finished"?

Again, to sweep these arguments aways on the basis that "there is no text that says this directly" is to muzzle scripture.

 

[daq]

Obvious evasion seasoned with some whataboutism. My argument is clear and, I believe, understandable - please address it.

Obvious nitpicking: it was a lengthy post from you and my response was lengthy enough. Nitpicking a single short response to one statement out of two larger posts doesn't mean anything.

 

[daq]

Did the Jews or did they not have a tradition of using apocalyptic "end-of-the-world" language to speak metaphorically about events in the here and now? Does the Isaiah text I provided not do precisely this? Is it a mere coincidence that Jesus says the law will end "when all is accomplished" and that His last words are "It is finished"?

Again, to sweep these arguments aways on the basis that "there is no text that says this directly" is to muzzle scripture.

You and I understand those types of language in different ways. I am not muzzling anything.

Here is some of that type of language which you are supposed to be preparing for and looking for:

2 Peter 3:10-16 KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Apparently the author of this text has an entirely different view than you when it comes to the writings of Paul.

So then, whether it is the atmospheric and outer-space heavens and planet earth, or whether it is the heavens of your mind and the earth and soil of your heart: neither have passed away, and therefore neither has one iota or horn passed from the Torah.