Questions for Sabbath practitioners

[SabbathBlessings]

The position of some posters appears to be this: Since Jesus's sacrifice clearly "completes" or "fulfills" the role played by animal sacrifices in the Law, we can see those things as "shadows" and set them aside. By contrast, I believe these posters are saying, the Sabbath is not about "sacrifice" for sin so there is no equivalent justification for seeing the Sabbath law as a shadow. Ok so far.

But why are you assuming, if indeed such posters are explicitly or implicitly making such an assumption, that "shadows' can only exist with respect to matters of "sacrifice"?

What if the rest offered by the Sabbath is a shadow of the rest offered in Christ as in "come to me all ye who are heavy-laden and I will give you rest"

What's good for the goose is good for the gander - if Jesus can "complete" laws focused on sacrifice why can He not also "complete" laws focused on rest?

Because it's not for us to determine which is a shadow law and what is not. The sacrificial system ended because the blood of animals was not perfect, but the blood of Christ is and He became our perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification. This has nothing to do with the Sabbath day and one of the Ten Commandments that we will be judged by James 2:10-12 and Jesus quoting from the Ten as we are to keep. Matthew 5:19-30, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 15:3-9, Mark 7:6-8, and keeping the Sabbath as our example Luke 4:16, John 15:10

There is no scripture in the entire bible stating that Jesus is our Sabbath, and we can break the 4th commandment.

God told us to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy and I believe God. Exodus 20:8 which is why the Sabbath continues to be the Lords chosen day of worship for eternity. Isaiah 66:23-24

The post was addressed to "Sabbath practitioners" as a FYI and we can't debate the Sabbath in this thread. God bless

 

[expos4ever]

If you read the whole chapter of Romans 14 in context it is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days. Romans 14 has nothing to do with God''s 4th commandment. In fact it was Paul's custom like Jesus to keep the Sabbath (see Luke 4:16 and Acts of the Apostles 17:2). God's 4th commandment was never in contention.
.....
It does not mention anywhere in the chapter it is talking about God's 10 commandments

There are problems with this line of reasoning. First, there is no justification for the claim that Paul is writing about eating on the Sabbath - that is something you are "reading in" to the text. Yes, both the issue of eating and the issue of special days are there - and there is a back and forth as he discusses one and then the other. But a careful reading of what Paul actually writes shows that there is no evidence that he is melding the two issues together.

Second, and more importantly, you argue that the text "never mentions the 10 commandments". Well, consider this statement: "My best friend is coming over to visit". The friend is never named explicitly but, if you knew me well, you would know that it is Fred who is coming over. So while it is true that Paul does not explicitly tell us what kind of day he is talking about in verse 5, it is at least plausible that he is talking about the Sabbath since that is a day that was clearly "valued" over other days. Now, of course, there were also the festivals that were "valued". But the key point is this: while Paul does not directly say he is talking about the Sabbath in verse 6, it remains at least plausible that he is - the fact that he does not explicitly name it is very weak evidence to the effect that he is not talking about the Sabbath.

 

[expos4ever]

The post was addressed to "Sabbath practitioners" as a FYI and we can't debate the Sabbath in this thread. God bless

I read the "statement of purpose" for this thread and saw no evidence that we are not allowed to debate the Sabbath here. If this is, in fact, a rule, please point it out to me. I will follow the rule, whatever it is.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

​

All threads which debate the Sabbath as 7th day or Sunday will be moved by staff to Sabbath & the Law forum. That forum was set up for that purpose. Threads discussing the Sabbath in a congregational forums need to be in line with that congregation's beliefs. Threads or posts teaching that Sunday worship is or will be the Mark of the Beast is restricted to the Traditional Adventist forum and will be seen as flaming in other forums.

Sabbath discussions and the Mark of the Beast​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[expos4ever]

Because it's not for us to determine which is a shadow law and what is not. The sacrificial system ended because the blood of animals was not perfect, but the blood of Christ is and He became our perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification.

Not sure what you that it is not "for us to determine which is a shadow law and what is not" - haven't you done that very thing, above?

As per my post, just as Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, why can't He, likewise, be the perfect rest?

 

[expos4ever]

which is why the Sabbath continues to be the Lords chosen day of worship for eternity. Isaiah 66:23-24

To be fair, Isaiah makes no declaration about eternal veneration of the Sabbath:

And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" is consistent with eternal veneration, but it is also consistent with time-limited veneration.

 

[Freth]

To be fair, Isaiah makes no declaration about eternal veneration of the Sabbath:

And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" is consistent with eternal veneration, but it is also consistent with time-limited veneration.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The law includes the Sabbath.

 

[daq]

In Numbers 28:9-10 God commanded lambs offering and bread and wine for Sabbath, how would Sabbath lovers practice this ?

In Exodus 16:29 God also commanded not to go anywhere during Sabbath, do you follow this.

You are also not allow to cook or to clean or to move things, watching tv, using phones, buying or selling etc. Do you practice this : https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/95907/jewish/The-Shabbat-Laws.htm

Romans 14:5 says we should not judge those who don't practice sabbath. Even Romans 14:1-5 don't judge those who eat unclean meat.

Peter Rebuked the Law in Acts 15:10 Now then why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the gentiles the yoke that neither we or our ancestors have been able to bear ?

Jesus did not follow Sabbath, neither the disciples as they picked up grains on Sabbath day. Disciples followed Jesus not Sabbath like the pharisees.

Mark 2:28 says Jesus is the Lord of Sabbath so if we have Jesus we also have Sabbath every day. It means we should rest our heart in Holy Spirit every day. As Matthew 11:28-30 explains that Jesus is the Rest/sabath. Which is the fulfillment of the real sabath.

The Hebrew of the desert did not have Jesus as the Lord of Sabbath, they did not receive Holy Spirit of Pentecost either, why return to the ancient desert Law not given for gentiles ?

The Holy Spirit of Pentecost baptism is the real fulfillment of Sabbath rest given for believers only.

It would appear that you are unaware who won the war over the interpretation of the Torah.

 

[expos4ever]

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The law includes the Sabbath.

Strawman - I never claimed that the Sabbath was not part of the Law.

 

[expos4ever]

It would appear that you are unaware who won the war over the interpretation of the Torah.

Who "declared" the winner?

 

[daq]

Who "declared" the winner?

HE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO SHALL BE.

 

[expos4ever]

HE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO SHALL BE.

Come on now, a real answer please.

 

[daq]

Come on now, a real answer please.

You do not accept the Father as a "real answer"? He declared it through His Messenger:

Matthew 28:2-6 TS2009
2 And see, there was a great earthquake, for a messenger of יהוה came down out of heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
3 And his appearance was like lightning, and his garments as white as snow.
4 And the guards trembled for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 And the messenger responding, said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek יהושע who was impaled.
6 “He is not here, for He was raised, as He said. Come, see the place where the Master lay.

Did you read somewhere that Ananus ben Seth and Kaiaphas and the Sandhedrin Elders were raised from the dead? Their handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees were nailed to the stake. At least believe Paul for goodness sake.

 

[Leaf473]

In Exodus 16:29 God also commanded not to go anywhere during Sabbath...

I hear what you're saying.
Taking a set of laws given to a community of bronze age people in the Middle East
and trying to keep them in 21st century North America leads to some challenges imo.

 

[Freth]

Strawman - I never claimed that the Sabbath was not part of the Law.

Isaiah 8:20 shows the eternal nature of the law of God. Present tense is ever-present truth for the Christian. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, (it is) because (there is) no light in them." Even if you take out "it is" and "there is", you still have present tense. Isaiah defined "strawman" in the language of this very verse.

 

[expos4ever]

You do not accept the Father as a "real answer"? He declared it through His Messenger:

Matthew 28:2-6 ....

How, exactly, does this resurrection account even remotely support the notion that any elements of teh Law, and in particular, the Sabbath, remain in force?

I suggest, if anything, the account suggests the opposite - Jesus is raised on the first day of the new week - a new round of creative activity has been initiated. Therefore, the markers of the "first round" should be reverently retired - God's plan is advancing.

 

[Servant78]

I hear what you're saying.
Taking a set of laws given to a community of bronze age people in the Middle East
and trying to keep them in 21st century North America leads to some challenges imo.

It was given to the Hebrew not gentiles.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There are problems with this line of reasoning. First, there is no justification for the claim that Paul is writing about eating on the Sabbath - that is something you are "reading in" to the text.

Where in the post you are quoting did I say Paul is writing about eating on the Sabbath? If I have never said that Paul is writing about eating on the Sabbath then what is your argument and what are you in disagreement about? Something I have never said? If we are both in agreement and I have never said that Paul is writing about eating on the Sabbath then what is your argument? You have none because your making arguments no one is arguing about and we are both in agreement. I did post however that there is no where in all of Romans 14 that is talking about God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath and that Romans 14 is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other day. Romans 14 is not talking about days that God blessed and made holy and esteems over other days. There is no mention of God's 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14. To come up with an interpretation of the scriptures that Romans 14 is talking about Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath you need to read that into the scriptures because it is not written there.

Second, and more importantly, you argue that the text "never mentions the 10 commandments". Well, consider this statement: "My best friend is coming over to visit". The friend is never named explicitly but, if you knew me well, you would know that it is Fred who is coming over. So while it is true that Paul does not explicitly tell us what kind of day he is talking about in verse 5, it is at least plausible that he is talking about the Sabbath since that is a day that was clearly "valued" over other days. Now, of course, there were also the festivals that were "valued". But the key point is this: while Paul does not directly say he is talking about the Sabbath in verse 6, it remains at least plausible that he is - the fact that he does not explicitly name it is very weak evidence to the effect that he is not talking about the Sabbath.

So how does this section of your post address anything at all in the post and scriptures your quoting from in regards to Romans 14? - It doesn't. If you disagree with anything in the posts and scriptures shared with you here in regards to Romans 14. You are welcome to address it.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It was given to the Hebrew not gentiles.

You may want to consider that there was no Hebrews at creation or when God's Word was given to Adam and Eve where God made the Sabbath for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27 and latter to, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob where God says of Abraham who was not Hebrew in Genesis 26:5 [5], Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. So Gods' people had God's Word and laws before any Hebrews did because before the written Word of God was given at Mt Sinai there was the spoken Words of God. You may need to also consider that, God never made a covenant with gentiles and gentile believers need to be grafted into Gods' Israel in order to enter into Gods new covenant promise through faith *see Romans 11:13-27; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

 

[Servant78]

You may want to consider that there was no Hebrews at creation or when God's Word was given to Adam and Eve where God made the Sabbath for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27 and latter to, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob where God says of Abraham who was not Hebrew in Genesis 26:5 [5], Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. So Gods' people had God's Word and laws before any Hebrews did because before the written Word of God was given at Mt Sinai there was the spoken Words of God. You may need to also consider that, God never made a covenant with gentiles and gentile believers need to be grafted into Gods' Israel in order to enter into Gods new covenant promise through faith *see Romans 11:13-27; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Jesus and apostles didnt follow sabbath.