Questions For Darwinists

[Meshach]

Your assumption was not based on less evidence than him, he took into account that they had claws. And it does actually make sence, since gliding from tree to tree must have some advantages.

For it is not what is found but the stories derived from what is found. He is able to come to his conclusions based on one fossil of an "odd bird"? There have been more false conclusions drawn by one tooth in the past . If you have a preconceived or presupposed idea before you even find something then the tale of the item found is made to fit this idea. Scales to feathers (this view is still changing as we go along), legs to wings, reptile lung to avian lung , flightless to flight cold blooded to warm blooded (this veiw is changing to better fit the assumed theory as well). I cannot and will not stop emphasizing the awesome mind numbing seemingly unlimited power of mindless natural selection. Breathtaking. How does it know?

Did you know that there are three living birds with claws on their wings?
Many people have tried to say that the proof that reptiles evolved into birds is to be found in a fossil bird called Archaeopteryx, which shows claws on its fossilized feathered wings. But all the living birds with claws on their wings are obviously birds! Archaeopteryx and the living ‘clawed’ birds tell us only that some kinds of birds have wing claws and some don’t. Such claws are not something new in birds, and they certainly don’t show that birds with them are any more reptile-like than birds without such claws.

source

 

[Meshach]

What you don't seem to understand is that it wasn't a "wing half done", but a fully functional limb used for display/gliding/steering/[insert function of your choice]

Exactly. There's a lot of evolution between four-legged archosauromorphs (NOT lizards) and flying birds - through archosauromorphs that could run on four or two legs (Euparkeria may have been an early example), fully bipedal archosaurs, and fully bipedal archosaurs with increasingly winglike forelimbs. As for feathers, they evolved in stages, all of which can be observed on exquisitely preserved dinosaur fossils.

I strongly advise you to read the chapter on instinct in The Origin of Species (especially the part where he discusses extant "transitional forms" of cell-making behaviour in bees). Arguments from incredulity were poor arguments against evolution even 150 years ago.

Am I the only one who sees these arguments against my assumptions to be assumptions as well?

 

[FreezBee]

Did you know that there are three living birds with claws on their wings?

I suppose that you mean three living bird species.

It may be more than that, though.

From this interesting article about emus:

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]OK[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] so I'm checking out our new emu chick and I discover something I didn't even know they had...wings. And not normal wings to be sure. In fact they're not really wings at all, but tiny vestigial arms, each with a single visible finger and on that finger is a claw!
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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Now there are a couple of reasons why that was surprising to find. One is that I was taught that there was only one bird in all the world that had claws in its wing. The hoatzin of South America has claws in its youth, which disapear as it matures. But that was supposed to be it. And emus aren't even closely related to hoatzins. [/FONT]

So, that gives us two: emus and hoatzins (that lose the claws as asults, though).

From that same article:

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The other reason that this enigmatic claw was important is that Biblical literalists insist that birds are not related to dinosaurs, believing them to have been magically created seperate from, and therefore unrelated to, any other order of animals. However, birds with claws in their wings serve as evidence to the contrary. Because clawed fingers on functionless limbs serve no purpose of intelligent design. But they do serve as pretty sound evidence these were once saurian arms.
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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]These claws also represent a feature that creationists insist cannot exist; a truly vestigial limb, something that would not exist unless these animals evolved from a form that had use of that limb. But emu wings are utterly useless. They can barely move their arms at all. And they serve no purpose whatsoever in their present state. The presence of a claw only adds insult to injury for their case, because what good is a weakly attached claw on a frail wispy arm that can't do anything? [/FONT]​

​

If both hoatzins and emus have claws, yet are not closely related, a good suggestion is that they have a common ancestor with fully functional claws.

If more modern bird species have claws, then that just strengthens that hypothesis.

Many people have tried to say that the proof that reptiles evolved into birds is to be found in a fossil bird called Archaeopteryx, which shows claws on its fossilized feathered wings. But all the living birds with claws on their wings are obviously birds! Archaeopteryx and the living ‘clawed’ birds tell us only that some kinds of birds have wing claws and some don’t. Such claws are not something new in birds, and they certainly don’t show that birds with them are any more reptile-like than birds without such claws.

source

But Archaeopteryx had teeth too and a bony tail!


- FreezBee

 

[Gracchus]

(And perhaps you should eschew arguing about stuff you know NOTHING about.)

But then creationists would have nothing to argue about!

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Ah Aristotle....wait a philosopher?

Indeed.

Science is not counterpointed by philosophy.

Exactly. So-called "science" that contradicts natural philosophy isn't science but rather pseudoscience.

Moreover, do you know that gravity exists.

Yes. And I know it's cause is electromagnetism.

Do you know that universal gravitation is a 17th century creationist myth?

"...lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other, he [God] hath placed those systems at immense distances from one another." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1687

"Meanwhile remote operation has just been revived in England by the admirable Mr. Newton, who maintains that it is the nature of bodies to be attracted and gravitate one towards another, in proportion to the mass of each one, and the rays of attraction it receives. Accordingly the famous Mr. Locke, in his answer to Bishop Stillingfleet, declares that having seen Mr. Newton's book he retracts what he himself said, following the opinion of the moderns, in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding, to wit, that a body cannot operate immediately upon another except by touching it upon its surface and driving it by its motion. He acknowledges that God can put properties into matter which cause it to operate from a distance. Thus the theologians of the Augsburg Confession claim that God may ordain not only that a body operate immediately on divers bodies remote from one another, but that it even exist in their neighbourhood and be received by them in a way with which distances of place and dimensions of space have nothing to do. Although this effect transcends the forces of Nature, they do not think it possible to show that it surpasses the power of the Author of Nature. For him it is easy to annul the laws that he has given or to dispense with them as seems good to him, in the same way as he was able to make iron float upon water and to stay the operation of fire upon the human body." -- Gottfriend W. Leibniz, polymath, 1695

"...to establish it [gravitation] as original or primitive in certain parts of matter is to resort either to miracle or an imaginary occult quality." -- Gottfreid W. Leibniz, polymath, July 1710

Do you know that you can verify it in your house.

Yes.

Gravitation can also be falsified in your house by performing the Cavendish experiment inside a Faraday Cage.

Furthermore, here is an experiment that any child can perform. Hold a tiny magnet to a paperclip and watch that tiny magnet counteract the entire alleged gravitational force of the Earth.

Do you know that if the earth exhibited electromagnetic force of equivalent charge, the iron in the hemoglobin in your blood would tear out and stick to the earth.

Utter nonsense; citation needed.

"All physical experiments we do, at the surface of the earth, are done within the earth's electric field that has a quiet background value of about 100 Volts per vertical meter. Also these experiments are done in the earth's geomagnetic field, so this makes 2 EM fields we need to be aware of. If either of the two fields are constant during an experiment, then the experimental data have one sense of utility. If either of the fields change during the experiment, then the experiment might produce, what we call erroneous, data. If you are not aware of these EM fields, then your, to you, scientific explanations, are incomplete." -- Louis Hissink, geologist, February 2009

Did you know that iron ships are made because the earth is not predominantly electromagnetic but gravitational.

Gravitation is a 17th century creationist myth.

All materials are magnetic and fall to the Earth at the same rate so it's irrelevant what ships are made of.

"Diamagnetic substances include water, protein, diamond, DNA, plastic, wood, and many other common substances usually thought to be nonmagnetic." -- Martin D. Simon, professor, May 2000

Did you know that you can measure both gravity and electromagnetic force for an electron.

Electrons have no gravitational force.

Quantum gravity is a myth that has never been observed.

"An atom differs from the solar system by the fact that it is not gravitation that makes the electrons go round the nucleus, but electricity." -- Bertrand Russell, physicist/philosopher, 1924

Did you know that the costliest experiment in history (LHC), functions on the assumption that you are wrong , else it will apart the earth.

Do you know that the LHC is a crime against humanity?

"It is claimed that the LIGO and LISA projects will detect Einstein's gravitational waves. The existence of these waves is entirely theoretical. Over the past forty years or so no Einstein gravitational waves have been detected. How long must the search go on, at great expense to the public purse, before the astrophysical scientists admit that their search is fruitless and a waste of vast sums of public money? The fact is, from day one, the search for these elusive waves has been destined to detect nothing." -- Stephen J. Crothers, astrophysicist, August 2009

The $6 billion LHC Circus

Did you know that if you are right, thunder would weigh a lot.

Why do you think lightning strikes the Earth at the speed of light?

Did you know that if you were right, every plane, car and ship would have to be re calibrated.

Why?

Did you know that the smartest men in the world believe in gravity.

I'm glad you think I am one of the smartest men in the world because I believe in gravity.

Did you know that every single Nobel Physics laureate believes in gravity.

Then I'm in good company because I also believe in gravity.

Did you know that anyone who ever took a physics major believes in gravity.

I believe in gravity as well.

Did you know that if you are right , we can fly using bar magnets!

Yup.

Brown, T.T., How I Control Gravity, Science and Invention, Aug 1929

Electrogravitics Systems: An Examination of Electrostatic Motion Dynamic Counterbary and Barycentric Control, Gravity Research Group, 1956

Simon, M.D., Hoeflinger, L.O., and Ridgway, Spin Stabilized Magnetic Levitation, American Journal of Physics, Volume 65, Number 4, Pages 286-292, Apr 1997

Frog Defies Gravity, New Scientist, Apr 1997

Simon, M.D., Geim, A.K.,. Diamagnetic Levitation: Flying Frogs and Floating Magnets (Invited), Journal of Applied Physics, Volume 87, Number 9, Pages 6200-6204, May 2000

Grossman, L., Mighty Mouse Takes Off -- Thanks To Magnets, New Scientist, Sep 2009

WHY DON'T YOU PROVE IT WITH DATA?

It should be easy, use a magnet and the earth.

Any child can take a tiny magnet, hold it to a paperclip, and counteract the entire alleged gravitational force of the Earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWTSzBWEsms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9MJvIp1aTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E

 

[Washington]

Moreover, do you know that gravity exists.

Yes. And I know it's cause is electromagnetism.

Considering your previous remark that "igneous rocks are below all sedimentary layers," you're now batting two for two (that's two strikes in two swings). One more and you're out.

But hey, if you're going to be wrong you may as well leave no doubt about it.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Considering your previous remark that "igneous rocks are below all sedimentary layers"

Do you claim that igneous rocks are not found below all the sediments?

What types of rocks do you find below all the sediments?

Magic rocks?

 

[USincognito]

"Which experiment would you [Velikovsky] like to have performed now? I know which experiment you would like now—the Cavendish experiment in a Faraday Cage." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, 1955

Google results for the last bit of this quote.

This is the second time I've picked a random quote from AoS's spam and had an Oil Is Mastery hit result. Looks like Oil is Mastery is quite the prolific troll spammer.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Google results for the last bit of this quote.

This is the second time I've picked a random quote from AoS's spam and had an Oil Is Mastery hit result. Looks like Oil is Mastery is quite the prolific troll spammer.

Looks like ad hominem fallacies are a sign of utter lack of logic or scientific counterargument.

 

[Gishin]

Looks like ad hominem fallacies are a sign of utter lack of logic or scientific counterargument.

Says the guy plastering hitler and darwin together.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Says the guy plastering hitler and darwin together.

It's called history.

"The deepest and ultimate reason for the decline of the old Reich lay in its failure to recognize the racial problem and its importance for the historical evolution of peoples. For events in the lives of peoples are not expressions of chance, but processes related to the self-preservation and propagation of the species and the race and subject to the laws of Nature, even if people are not conscious of the inner reason for their actions." -- Adolf Hitler, Führer, 1925

"... struggle is always a means for improving a species' health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher evolution. If the process were different, all further evolution would cease and the opposite would occur." -- Adolf Hitler, Führer, 1925

"National Socialism is nothing but applied biology." -- Rudolph Hess, Deputy Führer, 1934

"National Socialism is applied biology." -- Hans Schemm, Nazi Education Minister and president of the Nazi Teacher's Association, 1935

"Darwin would be astounded at the progress we're going to make in one year as we move the human race forward." -- Reinhard Heydrich, Chief of Police, January 20th 1942

Adolf Hitler named his book My Struggle (1925) after Charles Darwin's book title The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life (1859).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFKbgIr6ngE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6b4564ZeLQ

Nazi Darwinist propaganda comparing the alleged evolution of races:

 

[USincognito]

Looks like ad hominem fallacies are a sign of utter lack of logic or scientific counterargument.

Coming from a prevaricating spammer, who we have seen quote mine and continues to post incorrect information (like Velikovsky being a cosmologist), I'm not going to lose any sleep over your umbrage.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

<staff edit>

The Nazis considered Roman Catholicism to be "a branch of the Jewish race."

"The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race." -- Jospeh Gebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister, 1939

In fact, they openly hated the fact that they were born Christians.

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?" -- Albert Speer, Nazi Minister of Armaments and War Production

Epic history fail.

 

[SithDoughnut]

"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people." - Hitler, from a speech in Passau, October 1928.

"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions" - Hitler, 1933, here showing how he distinguished between Judaism and Christianity.

Of course, I could keep posting quotes and claims but I think those two are enough to show you that there isn't conclusive evidence EITHER WAY. There is proof that Hitler was a Christian, there is proof that he rejected it, to claim that one side is undoubtably true is the most epic-est of history fails.

Even more importantly, Hitler has nothing to do with Evolution whatsoever. To say that Hitler and Social Darwinism means that Evolution and Natural Selection is evil is like saying that the Wheel is evil because it was used on war machines. It makes no sense.

It is important that you learn how to distiguish between a theory and it's usage. I could quite easily turn around and say that because the Crusades killed hundreds of innocent people, and innocent women were murdered under the pretense that they were witches in the grip of Satan, that the Bible is evil, Jesus is evil, Christianity is evil. Neither of our claims are true, because of huge generalisations that we make. The Bible has been used as an excuse for evil deeds, and so has the theory of evolution. Don't forget that Anti-Semitism itself existed long before Hitler, and that idea of Jewish inferiority was based in Christianity itself.

Perhaps a more interesting question (but also one that would lead us off-topic) would be this: If God plans everything, and knows what people are going to do, why did he create Hitler?

 

[Freysinn]

Why do you think lightning strikes the Earth at the speed of light?

Lmao, You obviously dont know anything about gravity.

x is heavier than Y
x and y are droped from the same hight = they hit the ground at the same time, unless wind is a factor.


So

More weaght = same speed.
Even more weaght = same speed.
Less weaght = same speed

Lightning are not being pullled down by gravity. You should really studie gravity before you start critisizing it, especialy when you dont know that everything drops at a equal rate.

 

[Freysinn]

The Bible has been used as an excuse for evil deeds, and so has the theory of evolution.

I highly doubt that evolution trough natural selection was used as an exuse to do any evil deed.


And agonance, still waiting for proof of darwins racism. I'm starting to think you are ignoring it.

 

[SithDoughnut]

I highly doubt that evolution trough natural selection was used as an exuse to do any evil deed.

Natural Selection was used as a basis for Social Darwinism, which in turn was taken up by Hitler to create his hierarchy of races. It has also been used as a reason for eugenics.

Very few major ideas have never been manipulated in some way.

 

[SpaceMadness]

Has anyone mentioned Hitler objected to evolution through natural selection, that he at most accepted "micro evolution" and had a "fixed kinds" worldview like our creationists today?

Has anyone mentioned books on darwins theory were to be burned as per nazi guidelines? No? Someone may want to.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Lmao, You obviously dont know anything about gravity.

LOL.

No one does.

"...to establish it [gravitation] as original or primitive in certain parts of matter is to resort either to miracle or an imaginary occult quality." -- Gottfreid W. Leibniz, polymath, July 1710

"Since Newton announced his universal law of gravitation, scientists have accepted and educators taught it, and rarely has it been questioned. Occasionally one has the temerity to say that gravitation is a myth, an invented word to cover scientific ignorance." -- C.H. Kilmer, historian, October 1915

"But what do you know about gravitation? Nothing, except that it is a very recent development, not too well established, and that the math is so hard that only twelve men in Lagash are supposed to understand it." -- Isaac Asimov, writer, 1941

"Newton attempted to explain the force of gravity on two hypotheses: the existence of a medium, or ether, and action at a distance. The first hypothesis he rejected as being physically absurd, the second as contrary to reason. Newton had, therefore, no theory of gravity." -- Melbourne G. Evans, physicist, 1958

"It was only the downfall of Newtonian theory in this century which made scientists realize that their standards of honesty had been utopian." -- Imre Lakatos, philosopher, 1973

"Einstein&#8217;s theory of gravity is the craziest explanation of the phenomenon imaginable." -- Wallace Thornhill, physicist, 2001

"It is claimed that the LIGO and LISA projects will detect Einstein's gravitational waves. The existence of these waves is entirely theoretical. Over the past forty years or so no Einstein gravitational waves have been detected. How long must the search go on, at great expense to the public purse, before the astrophysical scientists admit that their search is fruitless and a waste of vast sums of public money? The fact is, from day one, the search for these elusive waves has been destined to detect nothing." -- Stephen J. Crothers, astrophysicist, August 2009

x is heavier than Y
x and y are droped from the same hight = they hit the ground at the same time, unless wind is a factor.


So

More weaght = same speed.
Even more weaght = same speed.
Less weaght = same speed

Exactly, therefore it's irrelevant if ships are made out of metal.

Lightning are not being pullled down by gravity.

How do you know?

You should really studie gravity before you start critisizing it, especialy when you dont know that everything drops at a equal rate.

I do know. You're the one who didn't know.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7429641-9/#post53857818

All materials are magnetic and fall to the Earth at the same rate so it's irrelevant what ships are made of.

 

[Exial]

Susa, your quotes really do nothing to strengthen your position.