Questions For Darwinists

[Ellinas]

Animals are animals...they do what they have to to survive. God doesn't expect animals to act in a certain way, because they aren't obligated to do so by having a soul and a highly advanced mind. We as soul bearing humans must or at least try to live by morals and reason, as such to benefit our souls. Free will dictates us to make moral or immoral decisions, and us such both our physical bodies and souls will feel the consequences of it.

My brother owes his life to a dog we once had. The dog saved my brother purely out of its own will. You mean to say such an animal has no soul?

By the way God gave man Free will but when man used it he was punished. Eve and Adam were punished for willingly eating the fruit of Knowledge! They were punished for this? This is free will?

Pray tell me what did the Haitians do to deserve slavery, dictatorships, hurricanes, and lastly a devastating earthquake?

 

[Apolloslyre]

My brother owes his life to a dog we once had. The dog saved my brother purely out of its own will. You mean to say such an animal has no soul?

By the way God gave man Free will but when man used it he was punished. Eve and Adam were punished for willingly eating the fruit of Knowledge! They were punished for this? This is free will?

Pray tell me what did the Haitians do to deserve slavery, dictatorships, hurricanes, and lastly a devastating earthquake?

I should clear my statement "God doesn't expect animals to act in a certain way, because they aren't obligated to do so by having a soul and a highly advanced mind."....
Of course animals have souls...its just that how their lives are undertaken is different from our Human souls. Free will was given to any soul that had a mind to use it. But the complexity of the mind in which each animal possesses can limit how much it can understand the world and understand morals. Even individual people vary to some degree...sometimes things are just too much for them to completely comprehend, but they still know something about it.

We know the goodness and love in which God wants to live us, but because of how we lived often determines how we act...it is our will to act morally or immorally. You know how God will react to your actions, but you don't always know how other fellow people will. God forbade Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of knowledge, so they knew the could either be moral and do as he says, or take an immoral action and go against his will. I think there is a reason why knowledge can be a bad thing...just look at how our world is. God made a paradise for Human Kind, but because of our actions that is gone. My belief is wisdom is far more important than knowledge, but because of how our society operates knowledge is necessary to operate.

And no the Haitians did not deserve what happened. From the poverty, malicious leaders, and natural disasters things just seemed to turn out on a negative note for them. Mother nature does its own thing...you can't stop that from happening. The punishments of the OT from God were said to be over, but that may not be true...if so, America and others are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Belk]

I should clear my statement "God doesn't expect animals to act in a certain way, because they aren't obligated to do so by having a soul and a highly advanced mind."....
Of course animals have souls...its just that how their lives are undertaken is different from our Human souls. Free will was given to any soul that had a mind to use it. But the complexity of the mind in which each animal possesses can limit how much it can understand the world and understand morals. Even individual people vary to some degree...sometimes things are just too much for them to completely comprehend, but they still know something about it.

So is an idiot (someone with an IQ below 20) held to a different standard then a normal person?

We know the goodness and love in which God wants to live us, but because of how we lived often determines how we act...it is our will to act morally or immorally. You know how God will react to your actions, but you don't always know how other fellow people will. God forbade Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of knowledge, so they knew the could either be moral and do as he says, or take an immoral action and go against his will. I think there is a reason why knowledge can be a bad thing...just look at how our world is. God made a paradise for Human Kind, but because of our actions that is gone. My belief is wisdom is far more important than knowledge, but because of how our society operates knowledge is necessary to operate.

Perhaps you could give me the definition you are using for wisdom here?

And no the Haitians did not deserve what happened. From the poverty, malicious leaders, and natural disasters things just seemed to turn out on a negative note for them. Mother nature does its own thing...you can't stop that from happening. The punishments of the OT from God were said to be over, but that may not be true...if so, America and others are in for a rude awakening.

So which is it, punishment from God or nature that can't be controlled? You seem to be saying both here.

 

[Ellinas]

We know the goodness and love in which God wants to live us, but because of how we lived often determines how we act...it is our will to act morally or immorally. You know how God will react to your actions, but you don't always know how other fellow people will. God forbade Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of knowledge, so they knew the could either be moral and do as he says, or take an immoral action and go against his will. I think there is a reason why knowledge can be a bad thing...just look at how our world is. God made a paradise for Human Kind, but because of our actions that is gone. My belief is wisdom is far more important than knowledge, but because of how our society operates knowledge is necessary to operate.

An omniscient God did not know that Adam and Eve will end up eating the fruit of knowledge. Are you saying that humans should remain like animals forever locked in a world of pure instinct and devoid of erudition? Are you saying that God wants people to be dumb? Are you saying that knowledge (Medicine etc.) is Bad?

If your God exists then I shudder to even contemplate the misery that is to befall the human race. I do not mean to be insulting here. I am just sincerely expressing my feelings. If you are in any way insulted then you have my apologies and I shall delete this post.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Pray tell me what did the Haitians do to deserve slavery, dictatorships, hurricanes, and lastly a devastating earthquake?

According to christian televangelist Pat Robertson, this is what happens when you make a "pact to the devil." God was just trying to teach a poverty stricken nation a lesson.

According to American actor Danny Glover, the earthquake was a result of failed climate summit negotiations.

 

[Spacewyrm]

My belief is wisdom is far more important than knowledge, but because of how our society operates knowledge is necessary to operate.

Without knowledge, wisdom cannot grow and flourish, but becomes stunted.

 

[Apolloslyre]

"So is an idiot (someone with an IQ below 20) held to a different standard then a normal person?



Perhaps you could give me the definition you are using for wisdom here?



So which is it, punishment from God or nature that can't be controlled? You seem to be saying both here."

No, an idiot is still a person...so you don't hold them in a different standard. Do you expect a dog to follow human laws, the commandments, and other things for that matter? Since each animal is different in how its mind is developed, the way it lives, etc of course things have to be different across the spectrum of species. Also, there are variances in the human standards as well...an idiot can't help that they don't understand everything so it isn't there fault they can't completely function properly in our society.

"Without knowledge, wisdom cannot grow and flourish, but becomes stunted."
I think spacewyrm states something very good here. Knowledge is academic items, knowing how to do things, etc....Wisdom is knowing and following morals, knowing how to make the right, reasonable, logic decisions in life, etc. Without using wisdom, how can be acquire knowledge and lead ourselves to live a good life? Knowledge is necessary for us since it makes our life better (i.e. medicine, technology, ways to grow food, etc).

God cannot be controlled...neither can most things in nature. Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to say that the God evoked disasters of the Old Testament were said to of past, but I don't know if that's true.
An omniscient God did not know that Adam and Eve will end up eating the fruit of knowledge. Are you saying that humans should remain like animals forever locked in a world of pure instinct and devoid of erudition? Are you saying that God wants people to be dumb? Are you saying that knowledge (Medicine etc.) is Bad?

"An omniscient God did not know that Adam and Eve will end up eating the fruit of knowledge. Are you saying that humans should remain like animals forever locked in a world of pure instinct and devoid of erudition? Are you saying that God wants people to be dumb? Are you saying that knowledge (Medicine etc.) is Bad?

If your God exists then I shudder to even contemplate the misery that is to befall the human race. I do not mean to be insulting here. I am just sincerely expressing my feelings. If you are in any way insulted then you have my apologies and I shall delete this post."

Yes God is omniscient, but we have a free will. He knows the possibilities that could happen, but because of free will he doesn't know which one will happen.

Part of having morals is to stage off some of our animalistic behaviors and drives. God doesn't want people to be dumb, it just happens that our physical bodies turn out the be the way they are.

You must keep in mind, God does not interfere because he gave us the free will to do things...if he answered every prayer (like people praying to win the lottery) then where is the life of lessons and growth that our souls need?

I am not offended by what you say...in fact I like it when I am questioned (but not to the point of annoyance) since it allows for me to understand and explore things more. We all have our opinions, and I respect them...but nobody is ever completely right.

 

[Ellinas]

Yes God is omniscient, but we have a free will. He knows the possibilities that could happen, but because of free will he doesn't know which one will happen.

Do you know the meaning of "Omniscient"? God as omniscient should have known beforehand exactly what was going to happen. This includes when he created Lucifer. Either God is Not omniscient or he did it on purpose. If he did it on purpose then he is not a benevolent God. Of course I am asking here and not trying to insult anyone. I am debating the reasoning behind it.

 

[Apolloslyre]

Do you know the meaning of "Omniscient"? God as omniscient should have known beforehand exactly what was going to happen. This includes when he created Lucifer. Either God is Not omniscient or he did it on purpose. If he did it on purpose then he is not a benevolent God. Of course I am asking here and not trying to insult anyone. I am debating the reasoning behind it.

Omniscience, boiled down to its simplest meaning, is to be all knowing. You do ask a good question...how can God be omniscient and there still be compatibility with free will? This seems like a big theological fallacy...but since God is omniscient then he should know how to deal with this dilemma. He may know all, but he leaves many things to our own free will and lets it play out to see the direction we take. God is benevolent in that he does not let our sells perish, and is forgiving. In my belief and logic, hell does not exists...only separation from God and the lack of love (evil). I am a believer in reincarnation and karma. So if we do something horrible in life or we do not fulfill our purpose(s), then we must live a physical life again to make up for that. The concept of Hell has been grossly overused and blown out of proportion. God in his entity is good, but since we are not God we don't necessary possess the pure benevolent qualities that he does...therefore suffering exists at our own hands, and because of karma it is our obligation to make up for our sins in order to make ourselves and the world a better place.

 

[USincognito]

Apolloslyre and Ellinas,

You guys are new here so let me give you a heads up. CF closed the General Apologetics subforum a while back. This is Creation and Evolution, not Apologetics and you guys have moved into that territory. I'd recommend taking it to PM if you want to continue before the mods shut down the thread.

 

[kangitanka]

I should clear my statement "God doesn't expect animals to act in a certain way, because they aren't obligated to do so by having a soul and a highly advanced mind."....
Of course animals have souls..

Demonstrate that.
Evidence would be nice

Even individual people vary to some degree...sometimes things are just too much for them to completely comprehend, but they still know something about it.

So how does the so-called "soul" of a gorilla differ from a human with a 95 IQ? (besides appearance, of course)

And no the Haitians did not deserve what happened. From the poverty, malicious leaders, and natural disasters things just seemed to turn out on a negative note for them.

Seems to be factual, this statement is.

Mother nature does its own thing...you can't stop that from happening.

Mother nature? Careful, some Christians on this very forum might think you are a pagan (or worse- "Nature Worshiper", i.e. Atheist) with statements like that (although they would never be brave enough to say so "to your face")

The punishments of the OT from God were said to be over, but that may not be true...if so, America and others are in for a rude awakening.

So you're not a Dispensationalist then, are you?
Careful again, some other Christians might think of you in such a way that you can't even "get past Genesis 1".
Of course, again, they would probably never be courageous enough to say such directly to you online.

 

[Apolloslyre]

Demonstrate that.
Evidence would be nice

So how does the so-called "soul" of a gorilla differ from a human with a 95 IQ? (besides appearance, of course)

Seems to be factual, this statement is.

Mother nature? Careful, some Christians on this very forum might think you are a pagan (or worse- "Nature Worshiper", i.e. Atheist) with statements like that (although they would never be brave enough to say so "to your face")

So you're not a Dispensationalist then, are you?
Careful again, some other Christians might think of you in such a way that you can't even "get past Genesis 1".
Of course, again, they would probably never be courageous enough to say such directly to you online.

Souls are all made of the same entity...it is the mind and its experiences which varies among creatures. We were created in God's image (our souls were made from the same entity as he is), but to distinguish all creatures from each other each soul was given a mind, and to further distinguish each soul's experience varies.

Not entirely sure what a pagan is, nor what dispenationalism is either...never really been educated in the religious section besides my own insights. I am an atheist turned theist...a little soul searching led me to God, but I am still not completely clear on exactly what I want to believe in.

 

[USincognito]

Apolloslyre and Ellinas, etc.

You guys are new here so let me give you a heads up. CF closed the General Apologetics subforum a while back. This is Creation and Evolution, not Apologetics and you guys have moved into that territory. I'd recommend taking it to PM if you want to continue before the mods shut down the thread.

Just in case this was missed.

 

[kangitanka]

Souls are all made of the same entity...it is the mind and its experiences which varies among creatures. We were created in God's image

That sounds like a Christian belief

(our souls were made from the same entity as he is), but to distinguish all creatures from each other each soul was given a mind, and to further distinguish each soul's experience varies.

So animals (humans, other apes, dogs, cats, lizards, insects, etc) are all made of "god stuff"?

Not entirely sure what a pagan is, nor what dispenationalism is either...never really been educated in the religious section besides my own insights. I am an atheist turned theist...a little soul searching led me to God, but I am still not completely clear on exactly what I want to believe in.

My apologies, I didnt pay attention to your faith icon (Seeker)
You were (to me, and perhaps to me only) sounding very much like a Christian and I interpreted your statements via that belief system.

 

[kangitanka]

Just in case this was missed.

Good point
Although Creationists seem to be able to generate GA arguments on this subforum without issue, simply because it's the crux of their argument.

 

[Ellinas]

Apolloslyre and Ellinas,

You guys are new here so let me give you a heads up. CF closed the General Apologetics subforum a while back. This is Creation and Evolution, not Apologetics and you guys have moved into that territory. I'd recommend taking it to PM if you want to continue before the mods shut down the thread.

Duly noted. Thanks