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Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by sbbqb7n16, Jan 11, 2003.

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  1. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    Hey I have questions that I am sure have already been answered somewhere, and I wonder who they could be about. The infamous "Holy Virigin Mary." Kind of interesting huh... infamous holy... But nonetheless this is my disclaimer: as much as I don't want this to turn into a huge argument, I'm sure that it will, because... well that's how things have become between protestants and catholics. There's bound to be someone who takes what I say the wrong way... in that event, I apologize beforehand for any hurt feelings I may cause. I just have questions... please don't make this into a huge argument, I would just like some answers :)

    1. Why does Jesus Himself try to not glorify Mary, but teach that we should? Luke 11:27-28 "As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and mursed you.' He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.' " Also see Matthew 12:48-50 Why do we not also pray to anyone who does the will of God, if we are to pray to Mary? (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm 'To whom may we pray')

    2. Mary died. Yet Catholicism or "church tradition" teaches that Mary lived without sinning. The Bible teaches that death is a result of sin. Even for Jesus, He was crucified for our sin, yet since He had none of His own, He was raised to life. If Mary did not sin, then why did she die? See #4

    3. Why are there designated "saints?" Does the blood of Christ make some people it covers worth more than other people it covers as well? Why are we all not considered saints? Why only certain people?

    4. Maybe you should ask yourselves the question found in Matthew 15:3...
     
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  2. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,247
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    MY CHILD, do not be curious. Do not trouble yourself with idle cares. What matters this or that to you? Follow Me. What is it to you if a man is such and such, if another does or says this or that? You will not have to answer for others, but you will have to give an account of yourself.

    -The Imitation of Christ, Book 3, Chapter 24 - Thomas A. Kempis
     
  3. brewmama

    brewmama Senior Veteran

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    You're right, the discussion goes on and on...

    1. How could you possibly interpret that to disparage Mary? She above all others "heard the word of god and obeyed it". I can type in a long response from Elder Cleopa on this later.

    2. We inherited death as the wages of sin from Adam.This includes newborns and babies in utero that die and obviously haven't sinned in their life. Yet they still died. Christ died to break this bondage that death has on us. Mary did die, but was immediately taken up to be with Jesus, so she obviously got her reward.

    3. If you read the lives of the saints, you would see that we are not all in the same aspect in our theosis. Some people on earth have actually gotten much closer to God while alive. They are honored and remembered as examples for us to strive to emulate. No one has ever said they are "worth more". Where did that come from? I honestly cannot see what the objection is to honoring particularly holy people.

    Perhaps you should read on down to Mt. 15:4 before you decide Jesus didn't honor His mother.And perhaps you should read 2 Thess. 2:15 again.

     
     
  4. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To sbbq:

    And then you close your post with this:

    If you want to ASK respectful questions about the Catholic faith, fine, you are more than welcome to come here to the One Bread, One Body forum. However, if you wish to merely cloak your distaste for Catholicism with a veneer of respect so that you may show us the error of our ways, we cordially show you to the door.



    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  5. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    And maybe you should apply Matthew 7:1 to yourself.

    John 21:22b is a good one, too.
     
  6. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    +0
    What I don't understand is non Catholics that want to hold Jesus to a different standard than the rest of us pertaining to his Mother.

    What makes protestants think that Jesus did not love his Mother more than anyone else and what makes them think that we somehow we would be disappointing God if we loved her as much?

    I don't understand that :scratch: how can we love our own Mother in such a special way and not think that Jesus wouldn't do the same?
     
  7. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    The deal is... we don't pray to everyone that we love. We only pray to God.

    And I wasn't judging... the law teaches that we aren't to worship any god but God, yet many aspects of Catholicism "worship" Mary. If I was judging by asking the question, wasn't Jesus Himself judging as well when He asked it? And are you also not judging me in the same regard? Woseley, you have done the exact same thing that I have done, yet you don't condemn yourself for it... why is it wrong for me, but not you? 1 Corinthians 5:12

    Proverbs 10:18 -" He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander is a fool." If my asking questions about what I don't understand is concealing my hatred, then isn't anyone who asks a question doing the same? All I have done is ask about what I do not understand. Is that a sin?

    Isn't there a verse in Isaiah that says that the sons will not be held guilty for the sins of the father, nor the father for the sons? Then one person's account can not be held guilty for the sins of another, and one man shouldn't have to pay for the sins of another (Jesus did anyways for all men). So why would Mary mother of Jesus be held accountable for the sins of Adam? Each man is accountable for his own sin. If she had no sin of her own, then shouldn't she have never died? She would have been the 2nd perfect lamb... but there was only one...

    As well... Brew your answer to #1 is lacking an answer to what I was looking for in the question, therefore I see that I must not have worded that question well enough.... Why is Mary the "Holy Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus" but normal Joe who goes to church and accepts Christ as Lord and Savior is just that... normal Joe? Shouldn't he be considered "Holy Joe, brother of Jesus?" Why do you give her more honor than any other person who does the will of our Father in heaven? James 2:1-4

    These are things that I do not understand. I am not trying to put anyone down by asking (apparently I was not clear on that point earlier).
     
  8. brewmama

    brewmama Senior Veteran

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    Well, Mary is worthy of it. She is the Mother of God. In the Scriptures both Gabriel and Elizabeth venerated her. The Holy Virgin herself prophesied in the Holy Spirit that "all generations shall call me blessed. For He that is mighty hath done to me great things...". Hence the honor rendered her is according to God's will.
    Think also that on Mary's greeting the child in Elizabeth's womb leaped up and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. What a powerful greeting!
     
  9. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    Brewmama... Matthew 12:47-50 "Someone told him, 'Your mother (which would be this same Mary) and brothers are outside, wanting to speak to you.' He replied to him, 'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to His disciples, He said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother' "

    If Mary is worthy... isn't anyone else who does the will of God also worthy of our prayers? I don't understand how that can be
     
  10. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    Sure.  That's why Catholics also ask for intercession from the Saints!  And the rest of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

     

    Michelle
     
  11. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    FWIW, my grandmother-in-law was raised at one of those churches that thinks Catholics are probably not saved, and she sees nothing wrong with asking people to pray for you. The interesting question is what happens when they die, but I don't see it mattering, myself.
     
  12. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    +0
    To speak to the comment that we don't pray to everyone we love, I think we do. Don't we use the term, "I pray thee?" And praying is not worship, praying is communication and nothing more. How are we supposed to communicate with Mary if we don't pray in order to do so? You communicate to loved ones don’t you? How do you communicate with them? You talk right? So how is what we do wrong? We “Pray” implore, talk, ask Mary for her prayers, the same way you ask your friends for their prayers. If it’s the praying that you are hung up on then we can take care of that easy. Praying does not = worship. Asking for prayer do not take away from God, if it does then why do protestants ask for prayers to be said for them? I would rather ask the Mother of God to pray than a sinner to pray for me, and at least I know with Mary the prayers will be heard because she is right there with Jesus in heaven. The prayers don’t have far to go to reach him.
     
  13. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To sbbq:

    When Jesus does not refer to His mother as "Mother," ANYWHERE in the New Testament, He is not degrading her or acting disrespectfully of her in any way, shape, or form. He was a devout Jew, He believed in honoring His mother as the laws of Moses commanded.

    His reference to her as "Woman" was a way of conveying her the title of "New Eve." And as He was dying on the Cross, He gave His mother to His beloved disciple, John. In doing so, and by calling her "Woman," He gave her to the entire world.

    Check your dictionary for the formal definition of the word, "to pray." It means "to ask." We don't "pray" to Mary, in that we believe she is deity, able to answer prayers and forgive sins. We ASK her to join her prayers with ours to God.

    Big difference.



    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  14. Annabel Lee

    Annabel Lee Beware the Thought Police

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    Yes.

    LUKE
    And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,

    27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary.

    28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

    29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

    30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

    31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

    32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

    33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

    35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.

    37 Because no word shall be impossible with God.

    38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

    39 And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda.

    40 And she entered into the house of Zachary and saluted Elizabeth.

    41 And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.

    42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

    43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

    44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

    45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

    46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
     
  15. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    +0
     

    To answer this we are going to have to back track a little bit and understand that holy joe did not give birth to Jesus and Mary did.

    We honor her and think that she is special because we believe that God gave her special graces that he never did or never will again give to anyone else in order to be able to be the one who is worthy of bringing us Jesus. We believe that Mary remained a virgin after she gave birth and believe that she is 'holy' because we believe that God preserved her from original sin.

    We don't believe that God did those things for 'holy' Joe. Mary says in Luke that all generations shall call her blessed and she goes on to say that "he who is mighty has done great things to me."

    So that's why we call her that.
     
  16. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

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    Another point is that we do honor holy joe if he is indeed holy. The Church has cannonized many saints that were proven to be "holy."
     
  17. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

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    When the angel talked to Mary, he said "Hail, full of grace"

    The definition of grace is - undeserved favor.

    Now was Mary blessed? Yes she was and is, but so is every believer.

    But what do you mean "Hail Mary?" Do you mean it as a greeting, or what?
     
  18. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

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    Sunstone:

    Yes we do, and where in the bible does it say that every believer is blessed in the way that it says that Mary is?
     
  19. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    The Bible does say that Mary was specially blessed. I mean, it's pretty clear.
     
  20. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

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    And St Peter or Paul does not say that all generations will call them blessed.
     
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