Questions already answered...

[chelcb]

Sunstone:

There is nothing wrong with womens seed, the problem is when man's seed goes with hers. God came upon Mary and got freaky and produced baby Jesus, and baby Jesus grew up to do some skull crushing. But Mary didn't have God as her father, she had a human father.


And your point would be...

In Gen: 3:15, the bible verse you brought up I may add, it says that he will put emnity between the woman and the seed of Satan, (which is man's seed that you so freely admit to it being).

Of course Mary's father was born with original sin but God, who can do what ever he wants, preserved Mary from the stain of sin (that you also freely admit is possible to do in anticipation of Christ) that was transmitted to her through her parents, by virture of their being part of the human race.

So where your going with this, I dunno

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by VOW
To Sunstone:

You need to do some SERIOUS research into Science, especially reproductive science.

And you need to do some HEAVY research, and provide standard bibliographic references to those incredibly WILD proclamations about Mary "abandoning" Jesus. That's bordering dangerously close to Heresy, and will NOT be tolerated in the Catholic area of CF.

In fact, I don't think it would be tolerated in ANY area of CF!



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Calm down grandpa

Mary abandoning Jesus is not what I said, I said that someone told me she was thinking that Jesus was crazy, and then I asked if anyone had any verses on it. And then I asked what did Jesus mean when He said "who is My mother and brother.....".

Whats science have to do with this?  This is about God and His word.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by chelcb
Sunstone:

There is nothing wrong with womens seed, the problem is when man's seed goes with hers. God came upon Mary and got freaky and produced baby Jesus, and baby Jesus grew up to do some skull crushing. But Mary didn't have God as her father, she had a human father.


And your point would be...

In Gen: 3:15, the bible verse you brought up I may add, it says that he will put emnity between the woman and the seed of Satan, (which is man's seed that you so freely admit to it being).

Of course Mary's father was born with original sin but God, who can do what ever he wants, preserved Mary from the stain of sin (that you also freely admit is possible to do in anticipation of Christ) that was transmitted to her through her parents, by virture of their being part of the human race.

So where your going with this, I dunno

My point is Mary is just like one of us. She is born into sin and needs Jesus's blood for atonement. This is based on the same verse that you use to say she is better or more important than us. The bible says in Luke 1:28 she has found favor/grace  either way it is the same word in the original launguage that is used to describe the believers in Eph 1:6.

Mary is blessed, but so am I, by grace. Now she probably is a role model to help us follow after, like Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. But Christ is our corner stone. And even if Mary did abandon Jesus, so what, so did Peter, but look what happened to him.

 

[VOW]

To Sunstone:

Calm down grandpa

Wanna try that again?


~VOW

 

[VOW]

To Sunstone:

I said that someone told me she was thinking that Jesus was crazy

Somebody told you that, so it's worthy of repeating? Yet Catholics here have tried to teach you the Church's position on Mary, based upon Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and you dismiss THAT?

Whats science have to do with this?

You've got some wild notions about "man's seed" and "woman's seed" and what we inherit from one and not the other.

My point is Mary is just like one of us. She is born into sin and needs Jesus's blood for atonement. This is based on the same verse that you use to say she is better or more important than us.

Yes, Mary needed a savior, she says so herself. However, she was PRESERVED from sin, not SAVED from it, like the rest of us. There is no single verse that this is based upon. It goes back to the foreshadowing of Mary in Genesis, and the understanding that as Jesus is the "New Adam," Mary is the "New Eve." Her preservation from sin is also more fully understood with the verse in Revelation that God cannot be in the presence of Sin, so therefore, Mary would not have been able to carry the Son of God within her body had she not been preserved from Sin. She wouldn't have been able to carry the infant Jesus to term.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by VOW
To Sunstone:



Somebody told you that, so it's worthy of repeating? Yet Catholics here have tried to teach you the Church's position on Mary, based upon Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and you dismiss THAT?



You've got some wild notions about "man's seed" and "woman's seed" and what we inherit from one and not the other.



Yes, Mary needed a savior, she says so herself. However, she was PRESERVED from sin, not SAVED from it, like the rest of us. There is no single verse that this is based upon. It goes back to the foreshadowing of Mary in Genesis, and the understanding that as Jesus is the "New Adam," Mary is the "New Eve." Her preservation from sin is also more fully understood with the verse in Revelation that God cannot be in the presence of Sin, so therefore, Mary would not have been able to carry the Son of God within her body had she not been preserved from Sin. She wouldn't have been able to carry the infant Jesus to term.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

1st paragraph. I dismiss it, with scripture. The same Luke 1:28 you use for your case, is the same one I use for my case. You said it yourself "Mary even said she needed a savior". 

2nd  Now this puzzles me. If both the seeds are the same, then how can Jesus be born and be the unblemished lamb? I could be wrong in assumeing that you believe that everyone born under either man or woman is not born into sin, where Adam sold us under. "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;" Roms 5:18   And now this scripture "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, MADE OF A WOMEN, made under the law." Galations 4:4

3rd Now you even say that you don't have verses to back up what you believe, but you say it is "the understanding" found in Genisis. Which Mary could not be the new "Eve", but I may be wrong, if you have some scripture, because I do have scripture saying she is just like us, "judgment came upon all men to condemnation" by Adams doing. Now God considered mans seed to be of the devils, becuase we are slaves either to God or to the devil and Adam sealed that fate for all mans seed when he sinned. Then Jesus had to come back and pay the price we couldn't pay, including Mary.

So you see, even if I am wrong, I still have scriptural bases for my beliefs. I am just trying to figure out what the truth is, and so far I am convinced that what I am saying is true, which is Mary was born into sin, and that it isn't womens seed that there is a problem with, its mans seed, just like the scriptures say "by one mans disobediance". It doesn't say womens, and even names Adam specifically. Also God said He was going to put seperation between the devils seed and the womens seed.

Questions.

1. Why did Mary need a savior?

2. If you believe that whoever is born of man or women, they are both corrupt, then how could Jesus come through a womens seed? 

 3. Why is the same word written to describe Mary in Luke 1:28 the same word that describes believers in Eph 1:6?

 

[chelcb]

My point is Mary is just like one of us. She is born into sin and needs Jesus's blood for atonement. This is based on the same verse that you use to say she is better or more important than us. The bible says in Luke 1:28 she has found favor/grace  either way it is the same word in the original launguage that is used to describe the believers in Eph 1:6.

No Mary is not like one of us. Where in the bible does it say that she is?

Mary is blessed, but so am I, by grace.

No your not. You are not inherently blessed in the way as Mary,  God may bestow his blessing on you, but he did not create you in a state of blessedness as he did for Mary and he certainly did not bless you with a "saved" mouth either.

 Now she probably is a role model to help us follow after, like Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. But Christ is our corner stone. And even if Mary did abandon Jesus, so what, so did Peter, but look what happened to him.

Mary did not abandon him so were your going with this, I dunno.

 

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by chelcb
My point is Mary is just like one of us. She is born into sin and needs Jesus's blood for atonement. This is based on the same verse that you use to say she is better or more important than us. The bible says in Luke 1:28 she has found favor/grace  either way it is the same word in the original launguage that is used to describe the believers in Eph 1:6.

No Mary is not like one of us. Where in the bible does it say that she is?

Mary is blessed, but so am I, by grace.

No your not. You are not inherently blessed in the way as Mary,  God may bestow his blessing on you, but he did not create you in a state of blessedness as he did for Mary and he certainly did not bless you with a "saved" mouth either.

 Now she probably is a role model to help us follow after, like Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. But Christ is our corner stone. And even if Mary did abandon Jesus, so what, so did Peter, but look what happened to him.

Mary did not abandon him so were your going with this, I dunno.

 

First answer my three questions.

 

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE


Questions.

1. Why did Mary need a savior?

2. If you believe that whoever is born of man or women, they are both corrupt, then how could Jesus come through a womens seed? 

 3. Why is the same word written to describe Mary in Luke 1:28 the same word that describes believers in Eph 1:6?

These questions,

 

[chelcb]

Since you address them to Vow, I will let her answer you. Not him, as in gandpa.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by chelcb
Since you address them to Vow, I will let her answer you. Not him, as in gandpa.

Thats what I thought.  

 

[SUNSTONE]

Nobody wants to take a stab?

 

[chelcb]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Nobody wants to take a stab?

  

 


Why did Mary need a savior?


Because she was human and as such she was subject to original sin. Her need for being preserved from sin is because God and sin can not dwell in the same place. If God was to enter into the womb of a woman she could not have been full of sin, she needed to be full of grace and she was. She was preserved from sin at her conception and she remained sinless her whole entire life.

2. If you believe that whoever is born of man or women, they are both corrupt, then how could Jesus come through a womens seed?

God applied Christ merits to Mary in anticipation of his sacrifice and he created her at her conception with out sin.

3. Why is the same word written to describe Mary in Luke 1:28 the same word that describes believers in Eph 1:6?

It isn’t.

 

[VOW]

I was offline today. Just saw this. And rudeness is NOT necessary.

SUNSTONE, this entire conversation is fruitless. I give my references, you dismiss them. I quote Genesis, you say I don't give Scripture.

Why should I even BOTHER? I'm obviously not going to give an answer you approve of. And guess what? That really doesn't concern me, or hurt my feelings, or make me cry in my pillow. I've been a Catholic longer than you've been on this earth. I'm a CONVERT, Sunstone. I not only believe I was led to the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit but I have studied the Church and its teachings for over twenty years. Everything, EVERYTHING I have learned merely reinforces the absolute rightness of my decision.

If you wish to learn about Catholicism, ask. But put the sarcasm and the rudeness on the doorstep. And leave out such choice judgments as "I dismiss that." We are not here to prove anything to you. We are answerable only to God.

OH, and a bit of advice: showing respect to your elders will go a LONG way in helping you to deal with the world.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by chelcb
  

 


Why did Mary need a savior?


Because she was human and as such she was subject to original sin. Her need for being preserved from sin is because God and sin can not dwell in the same place. If God was to enter into the womb of a woman she could not have been full of sin, she needed to be full of grace and she was. She was preserved from sin at her conception and she remained sinless her whole entire life.

2. If you believe that whoever is born of man or women, they are both corrupt, then how could Jesus come through a womens seed?

God applied Christ merits to Mary in anticipation of his sacrifice and he created her at her conception with out sin.

3. Why is the same word written to describe Mary in Luke 1:28 the same word that describes believers in Eph 1:6?

It isn’t.

1.If she is subject to original sin, then wouldn't that mean she was born into sin?

2.If she was born into sin, then how could Jesus come through her? From what you believe womens seed is just as bad as mans.

3.If God gave her grace from sin, and she never sinned, and God made her seed clean, then why would she need to be saved?

4.What scripture do you have that says Mary never sinned? I can except that she didn't sin up untill Jesus was born, but whos to say afterwards she didn't sin, since Jesus was already born?

5.If God and sin can't dwell in the same place, then how does the Holy Spirit live in the believer?

6.How do you know that the word that is used in Luke 1:28, isn't the same one used in Eph 1:6?

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by VOW
To Sunstone:



Somebody told you that, so it's worthy of repeating? Yet Catholics here have tried to teach you the Church's position on Mary, based upon Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and you dismiss THAT?



Yes, Mary needed a savior, she says so herself. However, she was PRESERVED from sin, not SAVED from it, like the rest of us. There is no single verse that this is based upon. It goes back to the foreshadowing of Mary in Genesis, and the understanding that as Jesus is the "New Adam," Mary is the "New Eve." Her preservation from sin is also more fully understood with the verse in Revelation that God cannot be in the presence of Sin, so therefore, Mary would not have been able to carry the Son of God within her body had she not been preserved from Sin. She wouldn't have been able to carry the infant Jesus to term.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Is this how you quote scripture?

You say so yourself, you don't have scripture but that it is "the understanding" of it, based on one scripture in revelations. And therefore it promps the many questions that I have.

And you wonder why the Christian church doesn't understand. I don't think you even understand it.

 

[kern]

What is "the Christian church"? Doesn't that include Catholics?

And Catholics are not the only ones who believe in the Immaculate Conception (or have believed in it) -- many of the Reformers (including Calvin and Luther) believed in it.

-Chris

 

[VOW]

Okay, Sunstone:

This is an official warning. Rudeness and disrespect will NOT be tolerated.

[noflame][/noflame]

Unless you can show that you are genuinely interested in learning about Catholic teachings, and you can give the Catholics here, including the moderators, respect for what they believe, you probably need to take your questions to the Protestant/Catholic/Jewish Meeting Place.

Oh, and Catholics ARE Christian. Insinuating they are apart from the "Christian Church" is also against the rules of Chrisian Forums.


~VOW
Moderator, Christian Forums

 

[SUNSTONE]

I ask questions, and you called it "borderline harasy".
I state what I believe and you say " you have some wild notions"
If I didn't come here to learn by asking questions that you haven't answered, then why do you think I am here? And what proof do you you have for any other reason for why I am here?

 

[Wolseley]

Congratulations, Sunstone. Here is another warning:

Rule No. 7 - No Public Disagreements with Staff
7) You will only disagree with the decisions of the Administrators or Moderators in private, either by email or private messaging, and never in a public forum. All decisions to edit, move or delete a post or thread are based on this set of rules listed here.

If you have disagreements with VOW, take it to the PM function; that's what it's for.

----Wolseley
Senior Administrator, Christian Forums.