Questions about your Church!!

[Isaiah 53]

Thank you all for you kind and informative response. I feel a bit overwhelmed with all the information to read.

I guess the main obstacle for me right now is the fact that there is not an Orthodox Chruch within 200 miles of my home.. That kinda puts the kiabosh on my experiencing the full affect of the Chruch.

I spoke with my wife about the idea; she seem to be taking in alright (I think its because there is no Church close enough.)

But I am going to take the time reading the information you all gave me. I am sure it will generate more questions.

THANK YOU ALL AGAIN!!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

 

[Isaiah 53]

Okay, that didn't take long. Being as I am neither Catholic nor Orthodox; could you please explain this to me:

The Holy Theotokos We love, honor, and venerate the Mother of God. We ask for her intercession. We do not accept the Immaculate Conception. We do believe that she was bodily assumed into heaven, but we do not count this as dogma.
What is meant that you do not accept the Immaculate Conception. Do Catholics believe Mary ascended into heaven? Do you?

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Reader Nilus]

Okay, that didn't take long. Being as I am neither Catholic nor Orthodox; could you please explain this to me:

The Holy Theotokos We love, honor, and venerate the Mother of God. We ask for her intercession. We do not accept the Immaculate Conception. We do believe that she was bodily assumed into heaven, but we do not count this as dogma.
What is meant that you do not accept the Immaculate Conception. Do Catholics believe Mary ascended into heaven? Do you?

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception rests on the fact of a stain from birth, we Orthodox do not believe that a baby is born guilty. So in fact for us all babies have immaculate conceptions. The Orthodox believe that The Blessed Virgin was assumed into heaven after she fell asleep in the Lord. Her feast is called The Dormition, which means falling asleep. It is not a proclaimed dogma, and an Orthodox Christian is not demanded to believe that upon becoming Orthodox.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Isaiah 53]

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception rests on the fact of a stain from birth, we Orthodox do not believe that a baby is born guilty. So in fact for us all babies have immaculate conceptions. The Orthodox believe that The Blessed Virgin was assumed into heaven after she fell asleep in the Lord. Her feast is called The Dormition, which means falling asleep. It is not a proclaimed dogma, and an Orthodox Christian is not demanded to believe that upon becoming Orthodox.
Jeff the Finn

Wow! that is interesting. So you do not believe in original sin? How is this explained?

Assumed into heaven after she fell asleep in the Lord? Could ya' put that in protestant speak for me.. Do you mean her physical body was taken into Heaven after she died? And if so, what is the source for this belief.

Thank you for your time and kind responses.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!!

 

[Reader Nilus]

For us sin is the enviroment we are born into, as the Psalmist sings, For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me. Once Adam and Eve sinned, the era of the fall began where pain and suffering and death became part of life, even though that is not what God had intended. In this enviroment of death and suffering, we by ourselves choose the broad way, that is sinning, instead of the narrow path. We become guilty by our own acts and what we have failed to do, and not because we are depraved from birth.
It is believed she was resurrected into heaven. The traditions of the Church state that. I am not sure of the original witnesses to that fact, someone else might know the source documents.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Philip]

Assumed into heaven after she fell asleep in the Lord? Could ya' put that in protestant speak for me.. Do you mean her physical body was taken into Heaven after she died?

Yep.

And if so, what is the source for this belief.

It is an ancient tradition. Consider this evidence to support it: The Orthodox venerate the relics of the Saints. We have relics from just about every Saint you can image. However, no one has ever claimed to have a relic from the Virgin.

 

[Oblio]

Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary- St. Gregory Palamas

 

[Isaiah 53]

For us sin is the enviroment we are born into, as the Psalmist sings, For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me. Once Adam and Eve sinned, the era of the fall began where pain and suffering and death became part of life, even though that is not what God had intended. In this enviroment of death and suffering, we by ourselves choose the broad way, that is sinning, instead of the narrow path. We become guilty by our own acts and what we have failed to do, and not because we are depraved from birth.
It is believed she was resurrected into heaven. The traditions of the Church state that. I am not sure of the original witnesses to that fact, someone else might know the source documents.
Jeff the Finn

Hmmm, I find your comments on original sin..exciting!!! But, I do have one quesiton. If we are not sinners from birth, why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin? And, would it not be possible then for someone to live a sinless life, thus not needing salvation?

As far as Mary, unlike some protestants, I dont get all bothered about the traditions of Mary. I do believe she was an ordinary woman given an extraordinary task.

I understand your reasonings for praying to the saints and to Mary. But, it is still hard to wrap my protestant head around, understand?

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!!

 

[Reader Nilus]

It becomes a question what is salvation. If we confine being saved to the idea of escape from the fires of hell then that is one thing. But even in the Old Testament like Ecclesiastes laments the fact that both fools and wise die. Even the Blessed Virgin Mary died, even though she was sinless, she needed salvation as well, because like all of creation she was bound by the effects of the fall, that is death.
The Paschal Hymn says it all: Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in tombs bestowing life!
For a classic book on the subject of atonement it is Christus Victor by Gustav Aulen. What the book shows is the classical Christian idea of atonement before Anslem.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Rising_Suns]

We become guilty by our own acts and what we have failed to do, and not because we are depraved from birth.

but you must agree that we are born with a sinfull nature, no?

 

[Philip]

Hmmm, I find your comments on original sin..exciting!!! But, I do have one quesiton. If we are not sinners from birth, why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin?

It is part of the mystery of the Incarnation. The Divine was joined with the human. The flesh was taken from Mary. There was no need for a human father.

And, would it not be possible then for someone to live a sinless life, thus not needing salvation?

With the fall of man, creation became separated from God. Through the Incarnation, it was reunited with God. Because of this, everyone needs Christ as their Savior -- a sinless life would not suffice.

As far as Mary, unlike some protestants, I dont get all bothered about the traditions of Mary. I do believe she was an ordinary woman given an extraordinary task.

And succeded in that task . This is why we honor her...not because of anything innate within her, but because, by the grace of God, she was able to serve God perfectly.

I understand your reasonings for praying to the saints and to Mary. But, it is still hard to wrap my protestant head around, understand?

Most of the posters here are converts to Orthodoxy. We all know how you feel.

 

[Philip]

but you must agree that we are born with a sinfull nature, no?

We are born separated from God with a nature that will sin if given the chance. But, we bare no guilt until we do sin.

 

[Rising_Suns]

I understand your reasonings for praying to the saints and to Mary. But, it is still hard to wrap my protestant head around, understand?

Just in case this wasn't touched on before, I'd like to say a couple words here.

You believe in the power of prayer right? You pray for other people? You ask other people to pray for you?...Well, in just the same way people on earth pray for others on earth, we can ask those in heaven to pray for us as well. It is biblically sound that there is atleast some level of awareness between those in heaven for those on earth. Anyway, I think that's really the best way I can explain it. Hope this kinda helped a little. Oh, and just a little afterthought, that's why we Catholics (not sure if OE do) pray for people who have passed away, for those souls in purgatory as well.

Hope I shed some light here.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Even the Blessed Virgin Mary died, even though she was sinless, she needed salvation as well, because like all of creation she was bound by the effects of the fall, that is death.

And how is it that Mary was sinless? According to your teachings, are we not bound by sin, because of the fall. That our nature is to sin. How can Mary have been sinless. I have always been taught that only Jesus was without sin.

Thank you for your time.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Rising_Suns]

We are born separated from God with a nature that will sin if given the chance. But, we bare no guilt until we do sin.

hmmm, i agree with this. It sounds to me like the difference in the RCC and EOC on this is almost splitting hairs. Original sin to me, could be explained as our guilt of being born into a sinfull nature (and thus we all need a savior, Jesus Christ). Does this ring alright in your ears?

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, Paragraph 7, SubSection 1, Heading 2



389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Saviour of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, 263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, Paragraph 7, SubSection 3, Heading 3

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". 293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. 294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Just in case this wasn't touched on before, I'd like to say a couple words here.

You believe in the power of prayer right? You pray for other people? You ask other people to pray for you?...Well, in just the same way people on earth pray for others on earth, we can ask those in heaven to pray for us as well. It is biblically sound that there is atleast some level of awareness between those in heaven for those on earth. Anyway, I think that's really the best way I can explain it. Hope this kinda helped a little. Oh, and just a little afterthought, that's why we Catholics (not sure if OE do) pray for people who have passed away, for those souls in purgatory as well.

Hope I shed some light here.

I understand that. That is why I said I dont get all worked up about Catholics or the Orthodosx church; praying to the Saints and Mary. I understand you are not praying to them. But, asking them to pray for/with you.

The problem I have is in placing Mary in such high regard. She served God, the same as Elijah, Moses or any of the Prophets. She was selected to give birth to our Savior. She should be honored. But, sinless? I cannot believe she was a perfect as Christ. I don't know, maybe you all can help me with this.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Rising_Suns]

But, sinless? I cannot believe she was a perfect as Christ. I don't know, maybe you all can help me with this.

there's a difference between being sinless, and being perfect.

 

[Isaiah 53]

When I say perfect; I mean without sin..

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!!

 

[Philip]

The problem I have is in placing Mary in such high regard. She served God, the same as Elijah, Moses or any of the Prophets. She was selected to give birth to our Savior. She should be honored. But, sinless? I cannot believe she was a perfect as Christ. I don't know, maybe you all can help me with this.

She was not perfect as Christ. Christ was sinless by His own nature. Mary by the grace of God.

A priest once explained it this way to me: Imagine two vases on a narrow shelf. The glazer takes one vase and places it in the cupboard where it will be safe. The other vase falls to the floor and shatters. The glazer picks up the pieces and makes the vase new again. This new vase is now safely placed in the cupboard. The first vase is the Theotokos, the second is me. Both of us need the grace of God to be placed in safety. The only difference is when that grace was applied.

 

[Isaiah 53]

She was not perfect as Christ. Christ was sinless by His own nature. Mary by the grace of God.

A priest once explained it this way to me: Imagine two vases on a narrow shelf. The glazer takes one vase and places it in the cupboard where it will be safe. The other vase falls to the floor and shatters. The glazer picks up the pieces and makes the vase new again. This new vase is now safely placed in the cupboard. The first vase is the Theotokos, the second is me. Both of us need the grace of God to be placed in safety. The only difference is when that grace was applied.

Okay, let me see if I can get this straight. Mary was not sinless on her own accord; like Jesus was. She was made sinless by God? Did this happen before or after the advent of Christ. And isnt this the same thing God is doing in all of us. Because of our faith in Christ, aren't we considered sinless; that is we still sin but we are seen through the atoning blood of Christ, without sin?

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!