Questions about iconography...

The Liturgist said:

By the way is there a way to offer to pay for the costs of serving an unscheduled liturgy and Holy Unction without inadvertently appearing to attempt to suborn simony? I know it is de rigeur for the married couple to pay the church for weddings and so on and Roman Catholics have mass stipends, but I thought I’d ask before requesting a Holy Unction and an unscheduled liturgy.

Click to expand...

what do you mean?

ArmyMatt said:

what do you mean?

Click to expand...

Should I offer to make a donation, or is there a fee or stipend I should be expected to pay, so as to compensate members of the choir and the priest, for doing a previously unscheduled liturgy and a holy unction service at my request due to my health problems?

I have never had to ask for a Trebnik service before other than Chrismation and so this is a bit new to me.

The Liturgist said:

Should I offer to make a donation, or is there a fee or stipend I should be expected to pay, so as to compensate members of the choir and the priest, for doing a previously unscheduled liturgy and a holy unction service at my request due to my health problems?

I have never had to ask for a Trebnik service before other than Chrismation and so this is a bit new to me.

Click to expand...

if it were me I’d say give to the Church, but ask the priest.

ArmyMatt said:

if it were me I’d say give to the Church, but ask the priest.

Click to expand...

Indeed, I am just wondering if I should include that in the request up front. I have budgeted $1,000 for it.

The Liturgist said:

Indeed, I am just wondering if I should include that in the request up front. I have budgeted $1,000 for it.

Click to expand...

I dunno, ask him. if he says no, it’d make a great donation.

From what I've read, the proper way to venerate an icon is by a kiss on the hands or feet of the person depicted, and a kiss on the face is never permissible. What do you do when the hands and feet aren't visible, as in the case of the Kazan Mother of God?

jas3 said:

From what I've read, the proper way to venerate an icon is by a kiss on the hands or feet of the person depicted, and a kiss on the face is never permissible. What do you do when the hands and feet aren't visible, as in the case of the Kazan Mother of God?
View attachment 356394

Click to expand...

I kiss the shoulder.

jas3 said:

From what I've read, the proper way to venerate an icon is by a kiss on the hands or feet of the person depicted, and a kiss on the face is never permissible. What do you do when the hands and feet aren't visible, as in the case of the Kazan Mother of God?
View attachment 356394

Click to expand...

what prodromos said.

What about the "Holy Face" icon? I've never seen this one specifically put out for veneration, but there is one in one of the side rooms at my church.


One other question on proper veneration, several weeks ago we had an icon with around five saints on it placed in the middle of the nave for veneration. It had a unique feature I hadn't seen before: below each saint's feet was a kind of metal "button" that protruded from the surface of the icon. I noticed a lot of variation in how people venerated this icon - some kissed all of the buttons, some kissed all of the saints' feet, some kissed only one saint's feet. What's the proper thing to do in a case like that? Are the buttons standard on some icons to prevent the paint from getting worn off?

jas3 said:

What about the "Holy Face" icon? I've never seen this one specifically put out for veneration, but there is one in one of the side rooms at my church.
View attachment 356440

One other question on proper veneration, several weeks ago we had an icon with around five saints on it placed in the middle of the nave for veneration. It had a unique feature I hadn't seen before: below each saint's feet was a kind of metal "button" that protruded from the surface of the icon. I noticed a lot of variation in how people venerated this icon - some kissed all of the buttons, some kissed all of the saints' feet, some kissed only one saint's feet. What's the proper thing to do in a case like that? Are the buttons standard on some icons to prevent the paint from getting worn off?

Click to expand...

Are you sure it wasn't a small container holding a relic of each of the Saints?

jas3 said:

What about the "Holy Face" icon? I've never seen this one specifically put out for veneration, but there is one in one of the side rooms at my church.

Click to expand...

usually I have kissed that icon to the side or near the corners.

prodromos said:

Are you sure it wasn't a small container holding a relic of each of the Saints?

Click to expand...

I don't know, I'll ask my priest. It would have been an extremely compact container if so.

Another question: I've seen conflicting opinions on whether icons should normally be hand painted or if printed icons mounted on wood are acceptable. For setting up a prayer corner, is it important for the icons of Christ and the Theotokos to be hand-painted?

jas3 said:

Another question: I've seen conflicting opinions on whether icons should normally be hand painted or if printed icons mounted on wood are acceptable. For setting up a prayer corner, is it important for the icons of Christ and the Theotokos to be hand-painted?

Click to expand...

The myrrh streaming Iveron icon in Hawaii is a print. I think that should settle the argument.

jas3 said:

Another question: I've seen conflicting opinions on whether icons should normally be hand painted or if printed icons mounted on wood are acceptable. For setting up a prayer corner, is it important for the icons of Christ and the Theotokos to be hand-painted?

Click to expand...

most people I know have both printed and painted.

prodromos said:

The myrrh streaming Iveron icon in Hawaii is a print. I think that should settle the argument.

Click to expand...

If I recall, the caretaker of the icon is or was a retired ROCOR/ ROCA (Agafangel or GOC Old Calendarist) affiliated priest residing in the Las Vegas area. Thus the local ROCOR parish frequently had either the icon or its myrhh available. However, the priest in question was in poor health, so if he has reposed, that would not surprise me.

Any icon, as your post demonstrates, whether a print or hand painted, and I have both, like most people known to @ArmyMatt , can be holy, beautiful and fit for veneration. I myself have never even paused to consider whether an icon was printed or painted before acquiring it, rather, these icons just sort of accrue in my icon corner, as I add them when I see icons I feel would make it more complete, that are particularly beautiful.

jas3 said:

Another question: I've seen conflicting opinions on whether icons should normally be hand painted or if printed icons mounted on wood are acceptable. For setting up a prayer corner, is it important for the icons of Christ and the Theotokos to be hand-painted?

Click to expand...

One thing I would really urge is that you not overthink this or pay too much attention to arguments that you should. And also, perhaps avoid places online where you might encounter conflicting opinions by various purists and connoisseurs who favor painted or printed icons and who might invoke piety to defend their views.*

Now, it is the case that hand-painted icons employ a great many iconographers, but they are also more expensive, often prohibitively so, and furthermore, as the case of Iveron demonstrates, you can have a miraculous myrhh-streaming icon that is printed.

By the way, if someone tries to sell you, at a premium, an icon they claim streams myrhh, you should probably avoid that, because most pious Orthodox Christians in such a scenario would donate that icon to their church, and there are frauds who sell icons that have been impregnated with rosewater and other liquids so as to appear to be myrhh-gushing, for purposes of defrauding the pious faithful. Also, if any icon in your collection, and this is highly unlikely, but in the extremely unlikely event you do come across an icon that seems to be doing something, take it to your priest for inspection.

By the way, nearly every icon in my collection was purchased from the gift shop of a parish or monastery. I prefer to obtain my icons in that manner, because they often have very good prices compared to online (likewise, at a parish sale I obtained a leather lestovka of configuration used for the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, which normally costs $200 or more if ordered online, coming from Russia, for $10. Furthermore, when I do buy things online, I like to buy from parishes. For example, I have bought quite a bit from the Old RIte Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA, including several Lestovkas and various liturgical books and also some edifying books such as A Son of the Church.


* Some people on those sites are insecure, and unstable in their faith, and engage in extreme expressions of religiosity that give rise to the caricature of “Hyperdox Herman”, which has been I think abused to criticize some devout converts, but nonetheless there are people, particularly in the Old Calendarist churches, who confuse religiosity with genuine piety. The real way of finding out who is living well as an Orthodox Christian is to find those who are humble and filled with love. The phrase “Still waters run deep” I have found to be applicable. But at the same time, we should be charitable towards everyone, including those who are unstable in the faith, indeed, especially towards those unstable in the faith. You may have noticed a few weeks back there was someone in this forum who really aggressively criticized myself and subsequently several other members, but I did not return fire or engage with them, because people sometimes have a crisis or are still learning, and the Holy Apostles consistently stressed the importance of charity.

The Liturgist said:

I myself have never even paused to consider whether an icon was printed or painted before acquiring it, rather, these icons just sort of accrue in my icon corner, as I add them when I see icons I feel would make it more complete, that are particularly beautiful.

Click to expand...

Are painted icons not normally $500 and up? I consider myself reasonably well off, but can't imagine spending thousands of dollars on iconography.

The Liturgist said:

One thing I would really urge is that you not overthink this or pay too much attention to arguments that you should. And also, perhaps avoid places online where you might encounter conflicting opinions by various purists and connoisseurs who favor painted or printed icons and who might invoke piety to defend their views.

Click to expand...

This forum is the only place I regularly visit these days I was on OC.net briefly before it went down, but the conflicting opinions I was referencing were from searches of old threads in TAW. It's true that I've been putting a lot of thought, even stressing, about getting the "right" first icons, but my other questions come more from a place of curiosity and only having a finite amount of time for one-on-one conversations with my priest.

The Liturgist said:

Now, it is the case that hand-painted icons employ a great many iconographers, but they are also more expensive, often prohibitively so, and furthermore, as the case of Iveron demonstrates, you can have a miraculous myrhh-streaming icon that is printed.

Click to expand...

Supporting iconographers is a bonus, but I was mainly thinking of the apologetics I read when I was just beginning to look outside of Protestantism, some of which (probably from Catholic Answers) defended the use of precious metals and expensive, fine materials for religious purposes rather than selling them and giving the money to the poor. They did so by making a comparison to Mary who poured nard on Christ, despite protests that she should have sold it and given the money to the poor, and arguing that it's fitting for sacred things to be finely crafted for the glorification of God.
By the same reasoning, it would make sense to buy traditionally-crafted iconography, even if it's very expensive, but I have to balance that with being financially responsible.

The Liturgist said:

By the way, nearly every icon in my collection was purchased from the gift shop of a parish or monastery.

Click to expand...

I'll look around more and see if I can do that. So far I've looked in my own parish's bookstore (which has a very limited selection, and no icons of Christ or the Theotokos for sale) and the sources in the "purchasing icons" thread.

jas3 said:

Are painted icons not normally $500 and up?

Click to expand...

They can be, but I have two in my collection that were less expensive, one being a gorgeous Coptic icon of St. Athanasius, which was like $200, and one being a beautiful large Byzantine icon of St. Nicholas painted on a simple wooden background, which was very inexpensive; I think I paid $20 for it, but aside from its relative simplicity, it follows the pattern for a canonical depiction of St. Nicholas and is one of the most unique and interesting pieces in my collection.

However some of my best and most expensive icons are prints, with reliquaries, including fairly large icons of the Transfiguration and the Raising of Lazarus (they are the same size as the icons typically venerated on these feasts) and a diptych of the “Mercy Seat” icon of what the Roman Catholics call the “Madonna and Child”, albeit according to the Orthodox “Mercy Seat” style”, and an icon of Christ Pantocrator - these two icons by the way are typically found adjacent to the Holy Doors in Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox iconostases (the Coptic iconostasis usually has a curtain and no doors, but this is also true of some EO iconostases, and also some newer Orthodox churches from the 1970s, particularly in GoArch, dispensed with the curtain and the doors, which I am not a fan of, but alas) with an icon of the Lord’s Supper mounted above the Holy Doors.

jas3 said:

By the same reasoning, it would make sense to buy traditionally-crafted iconography, even if it's very expensive, but I have to balance that with being financially responsible.

Click to expand...

Indeed.

You might also consider donating commissioned icons, either to your church or to Orthodox families with children who would not otherwise be able to afford them.

Our church bookstore has both printed and painted icons including some from Mount Athos. I have mostly printed icons. I have a couple inherited icons from my grandmother that are old and that have special meaning for me. I am really coming to appreciate the Theotokos. I also have three saints I feel close to; St John of Shaghai, St Cyril of Jerusalem, and also St Seraphim of Sarov. I need to learn more about my patron Saint, Saint Christopher.