Questions About Hell

[martymonster]

No, I am not soft pedaling. The Lake of Fire is the second death because it is the continuation of the first death. I just wasn't up for spelling it all out again. The fire will never be quenched because it is an everlasting decomposition that never is completed.

All who reject the gift of life in Christ are choosing the living death we are all born into because of the Adamic nature. Rejecting Christ means preferring the living death. The Lake of Fire is the continuation of that living death after the grave. It is a quarantine, because no one will come out to pollute the New Heaven and New Earth that all of us who have accepted life in Christ.

The most important take away from the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the need to accept Christ before dying.

In the story the rich man asks that someone from the dead go tell his family of this fate. The answer he got was that they have the Bible. If they don't believe the Bible, they won't believe someone who comes back from the dead. One must believe God before dying. We have to die in faith to obtain the glory promised.

This second death being a continuation of the first death, can you expand on that a bit more thanks?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You obviously do not understand the difference between a temporal chastizement, which is designed to punish sin, and eternal punishment, which is merely sadism.

You also don't know the purpose of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. It may well have been a mercy to them in several manners: keeping them from going deeper in sin (and thus deeper in punishments), protecting them from the various diseases they were no doubt spreading, and protecting the world from them.

Don't judge God's mercy by your standards of justice and morality.

I know a lot more than you do on the matter if you think punishment in hell is sadism.

You, actually, are judging God setting yourself up to decide what He can and cannot do lest it be sadism to you. You have decided He cannot leave who hate him in the only place where he is not dwelling.

What all universalists do not see is the severity of sin. For them
the worst crimes are mere mistakes not deserving anything too bad like what Jesus described would happen.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Since the main theme of the Bible is the redemption of humankind, which seems to be the more appropriate conclusion?
1) Restoration
2) Damnation

That’s not the main theme. Man tends to be narcissistic these days thinking he alone is the main focus. It isn’t so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus also said this. Now tell me how this gels with your "one size punishment fits all" hellfire doctrine?

The idea if he’ll isnt mine, as much as you wished it were. You never asked me if the state of being there is the same for all. It isn’t.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Well that’s certainly a comfort for those who reject God’s governship, besten less strongly than others. Most would prefer no beatings at all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Does God require us to love those who hate us?

Christians? Yes. Atheists? Not the first priority.

Why wouldn't he be held to the same standard of love?

Why do you assume love for the perpetrator means unable to be fair and just to the victims? Are you a parent? If so, you understand loving AND punishing. If you have >1 child, you might understand a love than banishes one for the sake of the others. There are no keys or locks or codes in Heaven. We don’t want thieves let in. Our security is those who gave themselves to stealing are not there at all.

Matthew 5:46-48
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

A father is not perfect who lets thieves and murderers and rapists into his home where his many children are sleeping cause he feels love for these perpetrators. Even if they were friends or brothers or sons once.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Tell me something.....what exactly is it that bothers you about the idea of God actually forgiving all mankind?

They get to keep on abusing people, stealing, destroying and so on for all eternity thereby rendering heaven hell. Would you like the authorities to open all the jails in your country cause they’ve decided to be like who you think God is? Would that make you feel better about their suffering? Do you campaign for all the criminals to receive mercy only and always? Why not?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Right. Because we'll just never be as good as he is?

So he created hell to make a point about how inferior we are?

It seems like you have created a monster.

(answering backwards)
Steven didn’t create God, for one. Hell was created for the devil and his hordes, for two. And those who now DESIRE to be good like God will have that desire fulfilled. Those who hates him and his goodness and wanted nothing to do with that will have that desire fulfilled....both for eternity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dear Light: The ghastly dogma of endless damnation has caused individuals to go insane.

Who has gone insane from thinking about hell??? Why didn’t they just repent and ask forgiveness to avoid it themselves and teach others too? It’s like saying a man living next to a lake went insane thinking about the people drowning there instead of learning how to rescue them.

Rather than turn the world to the Lord Jesus Christ, it has driven countless numbers far away from Him who is abundant Life.

No way. That’s just an excuse because they didn’t want to repent if their own dark deeds. I’ve talked to some.

Any individual who comes to the Master must come by way of His majestic call, not by fear.

Never ever hear a salvation testimony where the speaker says they heard his majestic call and I’ve heard 1000s. They all tend to see their sin and repent.

Sad news to report

1. To receive Him it must be granted to you. It does not come by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man.

1. Good news! He calls all men at some point in time of their lives.

   The Lord must open your heart (like Lydia).

   Actually he tells us to open our hearts.
   

   No man can come to Jesus Christ “it is granted of My Father.”

   Fortunately he grants this to all.
   

   The foundation for being a disciple of Jesus Christ,

You did not choose Me, I chose you.

But if you change your mind and decide the cost is too high, you can leave as did the 70 and Judas and the many who fell away from the faith and were lost.[

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dear D.M.: God sets the standard for forgiveness. He instructs us to forgive our enemies 70 X 7 (490 total), but alas He runs out of forgiveness credits for those who "hate" Him? ?

Thought of something else. Does God require repentance in order to grant forgiveness? Does God require us to forgive in order to be forgiven?

Are we to require this of others or is there a difference here?

 

[FineLinen]

And He delegates responsibility to us. We are given the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel. And this is my bone of contention with the US doctrine. It denies the plain statements of the Scriptures regarding the after life, and it removes motivation to share with the lost.

Dear Alex: Preaching the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is far more than you grasp. The ones who carry His Name do not just speak words, they carry His Presence where they are in a lost world. Perhaps it is visiting Him in prison today, or feeding Him today, or giving Him drink today, or taking Him in as a stranger today. Yes, we are given the great pleasure of carrying Him to a broken world. Preach the Gospel at all times, sometimes use words.

“I see Jesus in every human being. I say to myself, this is hungry Jesus, I must feed him. This is sick Jesus. This one has leprosy or gangrene; I must wash him and tend to him. I serve because I love Jesus.” - Mother Teresa

 

[Saint Steven]

Why do you assume love for the perpetrator means unable to be fair and just to the victims? Are you a parent?

I understand that a loving parent doesn't burn his own children alive and call it justice.

 

[Saint Steven]

(answering backwards)
Steven didn’t create God, for one. Hell was created for the devil and his hordes, for two. And those who now DESIRE to be good like God will have that desire fulfilled. Those who hates him and his goodness and wanted nothing to do with that will have that desire fulfilled....both for eternity.

Are you familiar with these scriptures?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Light of the East]

They get to keep on abusing people, stealing, destroying and so on for all eternity thereby rendering heaven hell. Would you like the authorities to open all the jails in your country cause they’ve decided to be like who you think God is? Would that make you feel better about their suffering? Do you campaign for all the criminals to receive mercy only and always? Why not?

Okay. I see your problem now. You have no idea what Patristic Universalism actually teaches. You don't understand that before a person can enter into union with Christ and enjoy His love forever, he/she must repent and turn from their sin(s). This is true not only here and now in time, but also after death.

The picture you appear to have in your mind is that a person dies and God immediately takes them to be with Him, regardless of the state of their soul. That is not true and that is not Universalism.

Do us all a favor. Don't enter into a conversation when you know little to nothing about what your opponent actually believes. You are attacking strawmen.

 

[Light of the East]

Are you familiar with these scriptures?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

In other words, Dorothy, does all really mean all?

 

[Light of the East]

I understand that a loving parent doesn't burn his own children alive and call it justice.

And a Great Physician HEALS sick people. He doesn't burn them alive and torture them forever. He does what is necessary to heal them from their sickness.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

This is the problem of so many who are hellists. Their thinking has been conditioned by the Roman Courtroom Mentality wherein they see sin as a crime against God rather than a sickness of the soul. They think not in terms of restoration to health, but rather in punishment to get even. God must get even with all sinners.

This is another reason the East and West will have a hard time reuniting. The West has to dump the idea of "Penal Substitution" and all the baggage that goes with it, including the false teachings of Purgatory and Indulgences.

Does the mercy (love) of God run out when a person dies? That's what Western theology teaches. The same loving Father who sent His Son to die for the WHOLE WORLD now changes and becomes the enemy of the sinner, to the sinner's everlasting destruction in hell. Yet the same Western theologians teach that God is "unchangeable" and "immutable."

Well, which is it? Make up your mind. Either He is love and seeks to restore, or He is hatred and seeks revenge. Can't be both. Since the Bible says He is love, I'll throw my lot in with that understanding.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Okay. I see your problem now. You have no idea what Patristic Universalism actually teaches.

True, I don’t know all the twisted teachings out there.

You don't understand that before a person can enter into union with Christ and enjoy His love forever, he/she must repent and turn from their sin(s).

First, there is no “union with Christ.” He remains distinct from us forever. Fellowship with him requires repentance, true.

This is true not only here and now in time, but also after death.

There is no possibility to repent and change after death same as being sorry for one’s crime plays little role after one is caught and the chance to freely surrender is over. Jesus said it is appointed once for men to die and the comes judgement, not repentance.

The picture you appear to have in your mind is that a person dies and God immediately takes them to be with Him, regardless of the state of their soul.

No, before I read this I quoted what Jesys says and I believe.

That is not true and that is not Universalism.

Correct

Do us all a favor. Don't enter into a conversation when you know little to nothing about what your opponent actually believes. You are attacking strawmen.

Says the guy who completely misread what I believe.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Dorothy Mae

True, I don’t know all the twisted teachings out there.

Then for Pete's sake, stop commenting here and spend a year or two reading up on Patristic Universalism. Get David Bentley Hart's new book THAT ALL SHALL BE SAVED and study it. Stop acting like a scholar when you don't know JACK about the subject!!!!

First, there is no “union with Christ.” He remains distinct from us forever. Fellowship with him requires repentance, true.

No, He doesn't. We were made for union and if you understood about 1/10 of what you think you understand about the Bible and the Christian faith, you would understand this. We are taught this by analogy in the Scriptures. We are called "the Bride of Christ" and therefore, Jesus is the Bridegroom. What does this language point to? What happens after a Bride and Groom are married (make covenant).

The nuptial union.

The next thing that takes place is the union of the two in love. This is also pictured in the holy Sacrament of the Eucharist where the divine Groom enters into our very beings and unites Himself with us. Unlike the bizarre teaching of the RC Church about the "Beatific Vision," we do not sit around and stare at the Godhead to get a divine buzz. We enter into a deep, profound, and complete union with Him which is hinted at in the Sacred Scriptures by the analogy of marriage.

What remains different is the essence of God. We NEVER become the same in essence as the Godhead is. That is forever the difference between God and His creation, but we can enter into union with Him by becoming more and more like Him.

This is the teaching of theosis in the Eastern Orthodox faith, the faith that has been kept unchanged for 2,000 years, as opposed to Western and RC theology.

There is no possibility to repent and change after death same as being sorry for one’s crime plays little role after one is caught and the chance to freely surrender is over. Jesus said it is appointed once for men to die and the comes judgement, not repentance.

Perhaps in your narrow little Protestant world there is not, however the true Church has a long history, going all the way back to the beginning, of praying for the souls of the deceased, which indicates the possibility of change. I will take the teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church over any and all invented theologies which came later, especially over Evangelicalism of any kind, which is only about 150 years old.

No, before I read this I quoted what Jesys says and I believe.

You keep quoting incorect Western translations of the Greek which make it sound like God is out to damn everyone but a select few people. Try using a Greek text that has not been corrupted by Latin translators.

Says the guy who completely misread what I believe.

I know exactly what you believe. I was in Protestantism for 25 years and very dedicated to it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

QUOTE="Dorothy Mae

True, I don’t know all the twisted teachings out there.

Then for Pete's sake, stop commenting here and spend a year or two reading up on Patristic Universalism. Get David Bentley Hart's new book THAT ALL SHALL BE SAVED and study it. Stop acting like a scholar when you don't know JACK about the subject!!!!

Stop yelling. I don’t need to read false teaching to know the truth. I study the truth instead:

First, there is no “union with Christ.” He remains distinct from us forever. Fellowship with him requires repentance, true.

No, He doesn't. We were made for union and if you understood about 1/10 of what you think you understand about the Bible and the Christian faith, you would understand this. We are taught this by analogy in the Scriptures. We are called "the Bride of Christ" and therefore, Jesus is the Bridegroom. What does this language point to? What happens after a Bride and Groom are married (make covenant).

Uou
must be Hindu/new age. But please find “union with Christ” in the Bible. Otherwise the above is reall absurd.

The nuptial union.

Millions in bed with Jesus...that’s probably the most absurd doctrine i’ve ever heard.
You never heard that Jesus says there’s no sexual union in Heaven.

The next thing that takes place is the union of the two in love. This is also pictured in the holy Sacrament of the Eucharist where the divine Groom enters into our very beings and unites Himself with us. Unlike the bizarre teaching of the RC Church about the "Beatific Vision," we do not sit around and stare at the Godhead to get a divine buzz. We enter into a deep, profound, and complete union with Him which is hinted at in the Sacred Scriptures by the analogy of marriage.

What remains different is the essence of God. We NEVER become the same in essence as the Godhead is. That is forever the difference between God and His creation, but we can enter into union with Him by becoming more and more like Him.

This is the teaching of theosis in the Eastern Orthodox faith, the faith that has been kept unchanged for 2,000 years, as opposed to Western and RC theology.

There is no possibility to repent and change after death same as being sorry for one’s crime plays little role after one is caught and the chance to freely surrender is over. Jesus said it is appointed once for men to die and the comes judgement, not repentance.

Perhaps in your narrow little Protestant world there is not, however the true Church has a long history, going all the way back to the beginning, of praying for the souls of the deceased, which indicates the possibility of change. I will take the teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church over any and all invented theologies which came later, especially over Evangelicalism of any kind, which is only about 150 years old.

No, before I read this I quoted what Jesys says and I believe.

You keep quoting incorect Western translations of the Greek which make it sound like God is out to damn everyone but a select few people. Try using a Greek text that has not been corrupted by Latin translators.

Says the guy who completely misread what I believe.

I know exactly what you believe. I was in Protestantism for 25 years and very dedicated to it.

You haven’t a clue what I believe. You’ve been on every charge do far. And stop shouting. It makes you look desperate.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Dorothy Mae

Stop yelling. I don’t need to read false teaching to know the truth. I study the truth instead:

This is why I don't like trying to do advanced theology with kindergartners. First of all, I wasn't yelling. If I was yelling, I would have had the caps button on for entire sentences. You don't even understand the difference between yelling and emphasizing a single word. Sheeesh!

What truth do you study? The interpretations of some 20th century pastor of your church who himself doesn't have a clue as to what the Bible teaches in the original Greek? Someone who, like myself, was brainwashed into believing someone else's interpretations?

Oh, I know.....you're one of those "Bible Only" types, aren't you? Yet you miss the entire fact that the Bible must be interpreted and that Protestantism is filled with people who all claim they are "Bible only" and yet don't even agree with each other on major doctines such as baptism.

You must be Hindu/new age. But please find “union with Christ” in the Bible. Otherwise the above is reall absurd.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Millions in bed with Jesus...that’s probably the most absurd doctrine i’ve ever heard.
You never heard that Jesus says there’s no sexual union in Heaven.

I didn't say that, did I? I said that marriage is an ANALOGY!!! of our relationship with Christ. You appear to not even understand how an analogy works, yet we are supposed to bow before your immense biblical wisdom???? Sheeeesh, give me a break!!!

Analogies are pictures which attempt to describe something by making parallel comparisons. For instance, as an analogy, the groom enters the wife and places new life in her. Which is analogous to Christ entering us by means of the Eucharist (His REAL Person, Body and Blood!) and places a new life in us, the "new man" that St. Paul described.

Honestly, you are embarrassing yourself here.

You haven’t a clue what I believe.

Like I said, been there, done that, and recant every false bit of if. Protestantism has NOTHING (Oh, there I go yelling again!!!) to do with the faith that Christ left to His Apostles and which was passed down to the next generation, the Early Fathers of the Church.

You’ve been on every charge do far.

Would you like to say that in Englisn now???

And stop shouting. It makes you look desperate.

I'd rather look desperate than foolish. Your ignorance of analogy, of Scripture, of basic hermeneutics, and of the historic Christian faith as taught by the Early Church, is absolutely breath-taking!

 

[Saint Steven]

And a Great Physician HEALS sick people. He doesn't burn them alive and torture them forever. He does what is necessary to heal them from their sickness.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

This is the problem of so many who are hellists. Their thinking has been conditioned by the Roman Courtroom Mentality wherein they see sin as a crime against God rather than a sickness of the soul. They think not in terms of restoration to health, but rather in punishment to get even. God must get even with all sinners.

This is another reason the East and West will have a hard time reuniting. The West has to dump the idea of "Penal Substitution" and all the baggage that goes with it, including the false teachings of Purgatory and Indulgences.

Does the mercy (love) of God run out when a person dies? That's what Western theology teaches. The same loving Father who sent His Son to die for the WHOLE WORLD now changes and becomes the enemy of the sinner, to the sinner's everlasting destruction in hell. Yet the same Western theologians teach that God is "unchangeable" and "immutable."

Well, which is it? Make up your mind. Either He is love and seeks to restore, or He is hatred and seeks revenge. Can't be both. Since the Bible says He is love, I'll throw my lot in with that understanding.

I agree. What a wonderful post. Thanks.

I have heard it said that a person's theology about God effects their eschatology, and a person's eschatology effects their theology about God. They go hand in hand. The Damnationists shape a God that fits their view of the final judgment, as do the Universalists.