Questions About Hell

[Dorothy Mae]

I understand that a loving parent doesn't burn his own children alive and call it justice.

No children are in hell. They are all adults and they are all guilty perpetrators. They are not children, none of them.

No loving parent allows their brother who raped their sisters to babysit their young daughters even if he’s homeless. You would allow murderers and thieves and so on into Heaven. I bet you wouldn’t let them spent the night in your home but you insist GOd does.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree. What a wonderful post. Thanks.

I have heard it said that a person's theology about God effects their eschatology, and a person's eschatology effects their theology about God. They go hand in hand. The Damnationists shape a God that fits their view of the final judgment, as do the Universalists.

It’s actually not true. I’ve changed my eschatology and nothing about God changed.

 

[Saint Steven]

It’s actually not true. I’ve changed my eschatology and nothing about God changed.

Are you a Damnationist, an Annihilationist, or a Universalist? And from which view did you change?

 

[Josheb]

This isn’t an answer but it occurred to me that those who reject God also WANT to be separated from Him. Again the description of the punishment fulfills their hopes.

Not sure whether I replied to this already or not.

Yes, this is a common pov among believers but we must remember they exist under the conditions of Romans and and 1 Cor. 2:14. They are blind and deaf; unperceiving and ignorant. Their thinking is futile, their hearts darkened, and they've been given over to their sinfully corrupted lusts. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood; it is foolishness to them.

Within that context we understand they are not at liberty to know what they want and what they want is not what they want. It is the old, "be careful what you wish for because you might just get it" scenario.

Only eternal.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Alex: The Lake of Theos is the continuation of the very One who is our God the Consuming Pur. It absolutely is NOT the continuation of the first death.

You have done a dismal job answering one single question. Since you have not quite reached your 490 forgiveness credits, and my patience is 1/2 way to perfection, I will ask you another question>>>>

Can you tell us which believers in Christ are NOT "hurt" by the second death?

How about it Alex? Please dig deep into your experience of God and answer your very first question on this link. Which believers in Christ Jesus are NOT "hurt" by the Lake of Fire (AKA 2nd death)?

 

[Light of the East]

No children are in hell. They are all adults and they are all guilty perpetrators. They are not children, none of them.

No loving parent allows their brother who raped their sisters to babysit their young daughters even if he’s homeless. You would allow murderers and thieves and so on into Heaven. I bet you wouldn’t let them spent the night in your home but you insist GOd does.

No children are in hell. They are all adults and they are all guilty perpetrators. They are not children, none of them.

No loving parent allows their brother who raped their sisters to babysit their young daughters even if he’s homeless. You would allow murderers and thieves and so on into Heaven. I bet you wouldn’t let them spent the night in your home but you insist GOd does.

After you repent, you are no longer a rapist, a murderer, or a thief. What don't you get about this? Those who die in their sins will be purged of those sins through a long and painful correctional process. Stop throwing out strawmen and then acting as if you just achieved a victory when you knock them down.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are you a Damnationist, an Annihilationist, or a Universalist? And from which view did you change?

A universalist is mainly a view about God. I don’t generally go for pigeon holes. I do know some and have found that in all of the false doctrines is that they appeal to something wrong in us.

But otherwise I had only learned the Dispensaltionalism which is heresy. Jesus is not coming soon to us. He’s certainly not coming in our lifetime. I used to believe that never having heard anything else. Didn’t affect my view of God either way.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not sure whether I replied to this already or not.

Yes, this is a common pov among believers but we must remember they exist under the conditions of Romans and and 1 Cor. 2:14. They are blind and deaf; unperceiving and ignorant. Their thinking is futile, their hearts darkened, and they've been given over to their sinfully corrupted lusts. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood; it is foolishness to them.

Within that context we understand they are not at liberty to know what they want and what they want is not what they want. It is the old, "be careful what you wish for because you might just get it" scenario.

Only eternal.

The final judgement is described in the Bible and no one is given that excuse. Eve tried something like it and it didn’t work at all.

But I have read your POV among some who don’t read the Bible except for favorite books like Romans upon which they build their view although some verses have to be ugnored.

Like Eve, everyone who remains deceived chose it because of the pleasure it offered.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

After you repent, you are no longer a rapist, a murderer, or a thief.

There is no more the chance to repent once death is over. The chance to SHOW you have repented by deeds is no longer possible.

Why can’t you get this?

The man who decides to be “sorry” about his crimes only once sentencing starts is only sorry he got caught. Why can’t you see this? Even pagans know this.

What don't you get about this? Those who die in their sins will be purged of those sins through a long and painful correctional process.

Since when do processes purge one of sins and who in Bible says this is the process?? Jesus forgave sins and cleansed them with no painful process at all (besides repentance) and it was instant.

Stop throwing out strawmen and then acting as if you just achieved a victory when you knock them down.

Says the guy who writes a theology no Bible writer ever mentioned.

 

[Josheb]

The final judgement is described in the Bible and no one is given that excuse. Eve tried something like it and it didn’t work at all.

But I have read your POV among some who don’t read the Bible except for favorite books like Romans upon which they build their view although some verses have to be ugnored.

Like Eve, everyone who remains deceived chose it because of the pleasure it offered.

I did not say it was an excuse. It is the very real condition of the sinfully dead and enslaved for which they and they alone are culpable. You said they want to be separated but it isn't rational to want to be separated from something you don't believe exists. Neither is it rational to think the unregenerate think that way. To say, "I want to be separated from God," necessarily requires them to acknowledge God's existence. There are those with intellectual assent to a deity's existence holding a hostility toward God but they are not the same as the fool who says, "There is no God."

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Dorothy Mae,

There is no more the chance to repent once death is over. The chance to SHOW you have repented by deeds is no longer possible.

You don't know that, and neither do you have any proof of this. God's love does not stop. The millions who never even heard of Christ were preached to when Christ went down into Hades, preached to the dead, and emptied it. Do you think that once they saw the fullness of beauty in Christ that they said "Meaaaaa....nah!"

Human beings have a limited time to encounter the truth in this life. However, they have an unlimited amount of deceivers (both human and spirits), blindiness of soul which is our natural condition, darkness of understanding, etc. which works against them making a truly "free-will" choice. The only free-will choice that one can make is one that is devoid of any compulsion or duress from outside forces. This is only possible for some after they die and they can see clearly both the Lord in all His beauty and glory, and the truth about sin. Most people do not choose sin because they desire to do evil. Most people think they are doing a "good" in a certain situation.

For instance, the murderer thinks he is doing a "good" thing because it solves his problem. He is blind to anything other than the pressure of the problem and his need to solve it. The fornicator doesn't think of fornication as an evil. Feeling good is a good thing to him/her.

So you would send people to hell for making decisions that are clouded by darkness of soul, lack of full truth, lack of full knowledge of what they are doing, etc? You would no doubt be one of Augustine's disciples who would happily send infant children to hell, wouldn't you?

The man who decides to be “sorry” about his crimes only once sentencing starts is only sorry he got caught. Why can’t you see this? Even pagans know this.

I do know this. That is why it is important to have full knowledge of what we have done. The only way some people will come to full knowledge so they can repent is when they stand in front of the One who is Truth. Then what they have done will be seen in the clear light of Truth and will be known to them for what it is - sin.

Since when do processes purge one of sins and who in Bible says this is the process?? Jesus forgave sins and cleansed them with no painful process at all (besides repentance) and it was instant.

This is also in Scripture, but your Protestantism doesn't recognize this. It is taught by analogy with the teaching of the refiner and the fire. The refiner puts the gold in the refining fires and heats it until all dross is purged away and all that is left is pure gold. This is what happens to our souls when we meet Christ. The fire of His passionate love (Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.). That fire will burn away the dross of our sins, leaving us pure.

The same process is spoken of in 1Corinthians 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Every man. Not just the "elect" or Christians. EVERY man!!!

Salvation is not about some Protestant fantasy of "forensic justification" in which God is the Great Judge and once you "Asssssssept Jaaaaaaayzuz" you are declared "Not Guilty" forever. No, salvation is much, much deeper than that.

Salvation is Christ defeating death by His death. It is restoration of the original purpose of God, which was to make a family of "little gods" by sharing the divine nature with us. (2 Peter 1:4) It is about what we ARE ONTOLOGICALLY, not about some fantasy of legal forgiveness in which God declares us "not guilty" then turns His back and deceives Himself in to believing that we are Christlike when we are not. God deals with truth and reality, and if you are not like Christ, you must be changed before you can enter union with Him.

Says the guy who writes a theology no Bible writer ever mentioned.

This is the theology of the Fathers of the Early Church. The same men who defended the Trinity and the deity of Christ, who called councils to oppose heresies, (such as Protestantism), and who gave us the Canon of Scripture. I am in very good company.

 

[Light of the East]

I did not say it was an excuse. It is the very real condition of the sinfully dead and enslaved for which they and they alone are culpable. You said they want to be separated but it isn't rational to want to be separated from something you don't believe exists. Neither is it rational to think the unregenerate think that way. To say, "I want to be separated from God," necessarily requires them to acknowledge God's existence. There are those with intellectual assent to a deity's existence holding a hostility toward God but they are not the same as the fool who says, "There is no God."

It's even more than that, as David Bentley Hart says in his book THAT ALL SHALL BE SAVED. Because of the natural spiritual darkness of sin, souls really cannot know what they are refusing until they see Christ after death. Would anyone in his/her right mind, upon seeing the beauty and reality of Christ, say "Meaaaaaah.....I think not!"

Of course not!

And if anyone did, then they would be insane, and in Christian anthropology, we don't hold the insane as being guilty of sin. Therefore, until the soul is rational and can make a rational choice, it is cannot really be considered to be guilty, but rather sickened.

The whole point of evangelization is to share the beauty and love of Christ with others that they might see this, and comparing their sin to the joy of knowing Christ, might repent and turn to Him. Unfortunately, the Church has done such a poor job of this - promoting the God of anger, revenge, and fear - that millions and millions have been turned off from anything to do with Christianity.

Take the story of Mahatmas Ghandi. He was interested in the Christian message until he went to church one day and the usher standing outside called him a "kafir" (the equivalent of ni**er in India) and threw him down a flight of steps.

That ended his interest in Christianity.

And yet Dorothy and many others would send Ghandi to hell simply because he couldn't get over this shoddy treatment by a "Christian". And that's just one example of millions. Seeing how Christians have acted towards brown-skinned, funny-talking people over the centuries, it's a wonder we are not chased down the streets by mobs with with broom handles.

 

[Josheb]

It's even more than that, as David Bentley Hart says in his book THAT ALL SHALL BE SAVED. Because of the natural spiritual darkness of sin, souls really cannot know what they are refusing until they see Christ after death. Would anyone in his/her right mind, upon seeing the beauty and reality of Christ, say "Meaaaaaah.....I think not!"

Of course not!

That is incorrect. All will kneel before Christ and call him Lord. There is no mention all will kneel before him and call him Savior. It is apportioned to humans to live once and then face judgment.

And if anyone did, then they would be insane..

No, they would be dead in sin.

In other words, they are already dead when they arrive at the throne of judgment! Furthermore, according to verses Gen. 6:5; Isa. 53:6; Jn 3:19; and Rom. 3:10 & 23, the judgment has already been rendered. What we are really talking about when we talk abour "Judgement Day," is Sentencing Day; the day when the just response to our conduct and disposition will be meted out. For those covered in the shed blood of Christ there is eternal life that has already begun in them. For those standing in their sinful flesh unadorned by Christ's blood there is destruction.

...and in Christian anthropology, we don't hold the insane as being guilty of sin.

Sure we do. The insanity is sin! How do you not understand that?

Therefore, until the soul is rational and can make a rational choice, it is cannot really be considered to be guilty, but rather sickened.

You got scripture for that?

 

[FineLinen]

That is incorrect. All will kneel before Christ and call him Lord. There is no mention all will kneel before him and call him Savior.

Do you have the slightest idea what being in the Name of Jesus means? ?

The bowing in/en His Holy Name is exactly the same!

"That IN the Name of Jesus EVERY knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, You are Lord."

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampsh). First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22 ; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13 . Under the earth (katacqoniwn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T. -Robertson Word Pictures-

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's even more than that, as David Bentley Hart says in his book THAT ALL SHALL BE SAVED. Because of the natural spiritual darkness of sin, souls really cannot know what they are refusing until they see Christ after death. Would anyone in his/her right mind, upon seeing the beauty and reality of Christ, say "Meaaaaaah.....I think not!"

Of course not!

And if anyone did, then they would be insane, and in Christian anthropology, we don't hold the insane as being guilty of sin. Therefore, until the soul is rational and can make a rational choice, it is cannot really be considered to be guilty, but rather sickened.

The whole point of evangelization is to share the beauty and love of Christ with others that they might see this, and comparing their sin to the joy of knowing Christ, might repent and turn to Him. Unfortunately, the Church has done such a poor job of this - promoting the God of anger, revenge, and fear - that millions and millions have been turned off from anything to do with Christianity.

Take the story of Mahatmas Ghandi. He was interested in the Christian message until he went to church one day and the usher standing outside called him a "kafir" (the equivalent of ni**er in India) and threw him down a flight of steps.

That ended his interest in Christianity.

And yet Dorothy and many others would send Ghandi to hell simply because he couldn't get over this shoddy treatment by a "Christian". And that's just one example of millions. Seeing how Christians have acted towards brown-skinned, funny-talking people over the centuries, it's a wonder we are not chased down the streets by mobs with with broom handles.

Pretty interesting that you think I am so formidable that my desire can send people to hell.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

QUOTE="Dorothy Mae,

There is no more the chance to repent once death is over. The chance to SHOW you have repented by deeds is no longer possible.

You don't know that, and neither do you have any proof of this. God's love does not stop. The millions who never even heard of Christ were preached to when Christ went down into Hades, preached to the dead, and emptied it. Do you think that once they saw the fullness of beauty in Christ that they said "Meaaaaa....nah!"

Human beings have a limited time to encounter the truth in this life. However, they have an unlimited amount of deceivers (both human and spirits), blindiness of soul which is our natural condition, darkness of understanding, etc. which works against them making a truly "free-will" choice. The only free-will choice that one can make is one that is devoid of any compulsion or duress from outside forces. This is only possible for some after they die and they can see clearly both the Lord in all His beauty and glory, and the truth about sin. Most people do not choose sin because they desire to do evil. Most people think they are doing a "good" in a certain situation.

For instance, the murderer thinks he is doing a "good" thing because it solves his problem. He is blind to anything other than the pressure of the problem and his need to solve it. The fornicator doesn't think of fornication as an evil. Feeling good is a good thing to him/her.

So you would send people to hell for making decisions that are clouded by darkness of soul, lack of full truth, lack of full knowledge of what they are doing, etc? You would no doubt be one of Augustine's disciples who would happily send infant children to hell, wouldn't you?

The man who decides to be “sorry” about his crimes only once sentencing starts is only sorry he got caught. Why can’t you see this? Even pagans know this.

I do know this. That is why it is important to have full knowledge of what we have done. The only way some people will come to full knowledge so they can repent is when they stand in front of the One who is Truth. Then what they have done will be seen in the clear light of Truth and will be known to them for what it is - sin.

Since when do processes purge one of sins and who in Bible says this is the process?? Jesus forgave sins and cleansed them with no painful process at all (besides repentance) and it was instant.

This is also in Scripture, but your Protestantism doesn't recognize this. It is taught by analogy with the teaching of the refiner and the fire. The refiner puts the gold in the refining fires and heats it until all dross is purged away and all that is left is pure gold. This is what happens to our souls when we meet Christ. The fire of His passionate love (Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.). That fire will burn away the dross of our sins, leaving us pure.

The same process is spoken of in 1Corinthians 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Every man. Not just the "elect" or Christians. EVERY man!!!

Salvation is not about some Protestant fantasy of "forensic justification" in which God is the Great Judge and once you "Asssssssept Jaaaaaaayzuz" you are declared "Not Guilty" forever. No, salvation is much, much deeper than that.

Salvation is Christ defeating death by His death. It is restoration of the original purpose of God, which was to make a family of "little gods" by sharing the divine nature with us. (2 Peter 1:4) It is about what we ARE ONTOLOGICALLY, not about some fantasy of legal forgiveness in which God declares us "not guilty" then turns His back and deceives Himself in to believing that we are Christlike when we are not. God deals with truth and reality, and if you are not like Christ, you must be changed before you can enter union with Him.

Says the guy who writes a theology no Bible writer ever mentioned.

This is the theology of the Fathers of the Early Church. The same men who defended the Trinity and the deity of Christ, who called councils to oppose heresies, (such as Protestantism), and who gave us the Canon of Scripture. I am in very good company.

You need to stop yelling.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did not say it was an excuse. It is the very real condition of the sinfully dead and enslaved for which they and they alone are culpable. You said they want to be separated but it isn't rational to want to be separated from something you don't believe exists. Neither is it rational to think the unregenerate think that way. To say, "I want to be separated from God," necessarily requires them to acknowledge God's existence. There are those with intellectual assent to a deity's existence holding a hostility toward God but they are not the same as the fool who says, "There is no God."

It’s not easy, I guess, to read between the lines for some. You haven’t converses with many atheists it seems. Of course they don’t SAY they hate God. Duh. Doesn’t change the meaning of what they do say.

Jesus was admired for his ability to read between the lines.

 

[RaymondG]

You need to stop yelling.

interesting..... When I read his words, I hear no sounds.

 

[Josheb]

Do you have the slightest idea what being in the Name of Jesus means?

Let me show you how to respond to content like that which I just received.




























.

 

[Josheb]

It’s not easy, I guess, to read between the lines for some. You haven’t converses with many atheists it seems. Of course they don’t SAY they hate God. Duh. Doesn’t change the meaning of what they do say.

Jesus was admired for his ability to read between the lines.

I could give you my bona fides but I see no evidence it would prompt any change in what is imagined about me and my God-given abilities.

Note that with each post you made it about the poster, not the op-relevant content of the posts. I can back up every claim I made with well-exegeted scripture sampled from the beginning to the end of scripture. Too bad we couldn't have that conversation.