Questions About Hell

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No one is saying that there is not punishment. That is not the issue. The issue is the idea of an unjust punishment which goes far beyond any sin committed in chronological time.

Maybe I misunderstood then. Who thinks God is unjust in any way (or at least who said God is unjust?)

 

[solid_core]

We sin because of our sinful nature given to us from Adam. We can't blame Adam because we choose to listen to the sinful nature through free will. Without the sinful nature we couldn't choose sin.

How could satan sin without fallen nature, then?

Also, how could Adam sin without fallen nature?

And Eve.

 

[FineLinen]

That scripture does not say all of mankind was brought into sin with Adam. Does not say we are sinners by nature. The "creature" is not us. We are the sons of God or children of God, a separate group in the scripture. So where do you think this supports in born sin nature?

Dear D.M.: Of course that Scripture does not say all mankind is brought into sin with Adam. We must read a mite earlier in the letter of St. Paul (Rom 5).

The "creature" is us, every last one of us!

The creature = the ktisis

The ktisis=

Anything created.

The sum of ALL things created.

The creature WAS MADE Subject to futility NOT willingly

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yeah, we don't believe in it in the way that Western theology teaches it. It isn't a place, Dante was a nutcase, and God is not some sadist who is out for vengeance. He is loving, heavenly Father who desires the healing of all His sick children so that they may come Home and live with Him in love.

I would point out that apocatastasis is not an official doctrine nor embraced by all of the EOC.

 

[FineLinen]

Correction: In Adam ALL were made sinners, therefore, in Christ ALL are made righteous. The word "many" in this verse must mean all for all are under the condemnation of sin. This is only just and fair.

And God does not WANT people to be saved. It is His divine, omnipotent, and HOLY WILL!!! Can any created creature defy His will? If so, then He is not omnipotent, is He? And if not omnipotent, then what assurance do we have that Satan could not somehow in the future, find a way to defeat our all-powerful God? If a mere man can do this, then would not a fallen angel somehow find a way?

This whole idea goes back to creatio ex nilho, as David Bentley Hart speaks of in his new book. That is, creation is ordained to a telos, a final end and purpose. Does God bring all His holy will to pass, asks the catechism? The answer is yes, therefore, if any man is ultimately lost, then it was never God's will to save that man in the first place, and then, going back to creation, it was God's will that the man (men) not be saved when they were created.

And thus, the Calvinists are correct. God creates men to damn them for no other reason than His sheer good pleasure (and enjoyment?). Which would make Him not love.....but a monster.

Dear Light: There is little question in my mind that Divine election is a fact. These individuals do not decide to follow Jesus, they come because He calls and they MUST come.

The pride however of these wascally wascals goes into deplorable statements for those poor souls who know nothing of God's incredible Reach.

 

[Silverback]

Questions Without Answers On Hell

Questions Without Answers

1. As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)
2. If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?
3. Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?
4. As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?
5. If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)
6. As "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)
7. As "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)
8. As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)
9. Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?
10. If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?
11. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
12. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)
13. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
14. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?
15. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

1. There is a way that seems right to man, the end thereof is the way of destruction.

2. Our righteousness is as filthy rags

3. His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts.

4. If God does something, it is always just, right, and fair.

5. God's nature is love, kindness, and mercy, it is also righteous, just, and holy.

6. Because of God's rightousness, Justice, and holiness, he cannot tolerate sin, and must at some point, punish the unrepentant sinner.

7. Those who believe, and trust in Christ promises alone to save them, have been washed clean in the blood of the lamb, their sins were nailed to the cross, so there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

8. God does love the sinner, but that will not get them a pass, Hell is eternal, just like heaven is eternal.

9. Heaven is peace, love, kindness, and joy.

10. Hell is sorrow, despair, hopelessness, and pain.

11. Those in Hell will be separated from God, and his providence, they will be self aware, they will know where they are, where they are not, and will suffer in their own regret, and the turmoil of their choosing.

12. Hell is real, Hell is punnishment, there is no appeal, there is no second chance, and it is forever.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your appeal to the Early Fathers as your standard by which you defend hell strikes me as a real piece of hypocrisy unless you belong to the Orthodox Church. The Early Fathers taught absolutely nothing which could be construed as modern Evangelicalism (non-denominationalism).

One other thing. The Eastern Church was part of the Roman Empire and thus was very much influenced by the Roman mindset. This is why there were three different eschatologies being taught in five different theological schools for the first five centuries of the Church: Universalism, ECT, and Annihilationism. You can find Fathers of the Church who taught ECT and you will also find Fathers such as St. Gregory of Nyssa who taught Universalism. It all depends on the cultural milieu in which they were raised and who taught them.

Yet all of them can’t be right.

 

[FineLinen]

Correction: In Adam ALL were made sinners, therefore, in Christ ALL are made righteous. The word "many" in this verse must mean all for all are under the condemnation of sin. This is only just and fair.

And God does not WANT people to be saved. It is His divine, omnipotent, and HOLY WILL!!! Can any created creature defy His will? If so, then He is not omnipotent, is He? And if not omnipotent, then what assurance do we have that Satan could not somehow in the future, find a way to defeat our all-powerful God? If a mere man can do this, then would not a fallen angel somehow find a way?

This whole idea goes back to creatio ex nilho, as David Bentley Hart speaks of in his new book. That is, creation is ordained to a telos, a final end and purpose. Does God bring all His holy will to pass, asks the catechism? The answer is yes, therefore, if any man is ultimately lost, then it was never God's will to save that man in the first place, and then, going back to creation, it was God's will that the man (men) not be saved when they were created.

And thus, the Calvinists are correct. God creates men to damn them for no other reason than His sheer good pleasure (and enjoyment?). Which would make Him not love.....but a monster.

Dear Light: Your grasp of the Holy is exceptional. Thank you for your post.

The end of all is Him

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your appeal to the Early Fathers as your standard by which you defend hell strikes me as a real piece of hypocrisy unless you belong to the Orthodox Church.

I do not attend an Orthodox Church, however I do embrace much her teachings especially in matters of salvation and hold the EOC in very high regard. I decided to remain in my current church because I can see the Spirit at work there and I accepted Christ there. What can I say I love my church family they’re great people.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dear D.M.: Of course that Scripture does not say all mankind is brought into sin with Adam. We must read a mite earlier in the letter of St. Paul (Rom 5).

The "creature" is us, every last one of us!

No, the redemption of the children/sons of God are mentioned and That refers to us.

The creature = the ktisis

The ktisis=

Anything created.

The sum of ALL things created.

The creature WAS MADE Subject to futility NOT willingly

That is everything BUT us. They were subject because of Adams sin. They still are but don’t sin. We sin. Therefore we are active not “subject” which is passive.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do you understand the story of Adam and Eve and the fall of man?

As written. No extras added.

Be specific. That’s kind of broad.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We sin because of our sinful nature given to us from Adam. We can't blame Adam because we choose to listen to the sinful nature through free will. Without the sinful nature we couldn't choose sin.

Adam and Eve didn’t have a sinful nature and they sinned. They sinned because if the reasons James gives. They wanted and did not have. They did not have cause they did not ask.

Believing the Bible is a lot easier.

 

[smithed64]

That scripture does not say all of mankind was brought into sin with Adam. Does not say we are sinners by nature. The "creature" is not us. We are the sons of God or children of God, a separate group in the scripture. So where do you think this supports in born sin nature?

By the way, I prefer James' explanation for sin: "What causes conflicts and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from the passions at war within you? 2You crave what you do not have; you kill and covet, but are unable to obtain it. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3And when you do ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may squander it on your pleasures."

How come James did not blame a sin nature when discussing the subject?

Hello,
He doesn't come right and say it. James shows the sin that is already there. Selfishness, "passions at war within you", Coveting. Coveting covers a multitude of sins, adultery, theft, murder...these are all things that you take that which wasn't yours from the beginning.
Not praying properly, not communicating with God, and when it's done, it's done again for selfish reasons. Not for the Glory of God.

Word tells us that what man thinks and does is right in his/her mind, but it's the way unto death.
That rebelling comes from somewhere, We are born with sin in our hearts, it's shown all the way into early childhood. (And no, I do not believe God sends children to hell, that's a whole different subject)

You ever had a child in hand who wanted a toy or something that you had. And you told him/her No, they couldn't have it, and BAM! they go into a temper tantrum, yelling and screaming, moaning and groaning as if they were physically injured. Well, that's typically called lying, because you never touched them. It's also called selfishness, they are young, and i'm sure mom and dad didn't teach them to do that, in most cases. It's also violence, the only reason why that child isn't physically hurting you is because your bigger than him or her.
Now do they know they are sinning? No, I don't believe that. They don't understand that there are consequences for that action. But, once learned that there are consequences for his or her actions, and understand that the choices they make are right or wrong. Then we can question as to where their soul is with God and start teaching them the way of God.
Which is biblical, We are to teach our children about Christ, who he is, what he did and why. When we do,and even if they leave home, they will return to those teachings. Or be reminded of them through conviction by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture tells us Death came but by Adam first. This death is speaking of the Sin that Adam did.

Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for [a]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So yes the Word does tell us that sin is there, through Adam.
We know we sin because of the Law, that God gave Moses and for what he has placed on our heart from the beginning.
The Law is the School master that brings us to Christ.

 

[martymonster]

God has different responsibilities than we do. The police might require private persons not to arrest or hold others in their own personally built prison but it doesn’t mean they don’t arrest some and hold them in jail. Doesn’t mean the standard is different. Means the responsiblities are different.

LOL! Nice try.

 

[FineLinen]

No, the redemption of the children/sons of God are mentioned and That refers to us.
That is everything BUT us. They were subject because of Adams sin. They still are but don’t sin. We sin. Therefore we are active not “subject” which is passive.

 

[aiki]

Dear Aiki: Do you know the ONLY Scripture that speaks of "everlasting punishment" is relating to not the wicked at all. In fact the punishment is to two clean animals, not one clean and the other unclean.

This is an...interesting take on the passage. Feel free to explain it. How are the "sheep" and "goats" not simply metaphoric, referring to those who have loved Christ and those who have not, as the passage indicates? And how is the everlasting punishment of the "goats" totally unrelated to the wicked? Jesus says, "These will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." In doing so, he distinguishes "these" as those who are not "the righteous." And since the "these" in the verse are cast away from Christ, separated from him unto everlasting punishment, it stands to reason they are the opposite of the righteous, that is, they are wicked.

And what are the conditions for aionios kolasis?

As for the oft contended notion that aionios kolasis does not literally mean everlasting punishment, well, I respond: How is the obvious parallelism in the verse sustained if the everlasting punishment of the wicked is not parallel to the eternal life of the righteous? Any reading that makes "everlasting" temporary, "for an age," as some assert totally destroys the parallel the verse clearly makes.

Following are some further notes on the reading of Matthew 25:46:

Regarding "kolasis," the frequent mistaken argument is:

punishment - Gk. - "kolasis" - can mean to cut off or prune. Therefore, the above verse should be read "into everlasting cutting off." Hence, "to cut off an individual from life, or society...is esteemed as punishment." The punishment of the wicked will be "a wiping out of existence as an eternal punishment."

Defense:

The stem of "kolasis" (kolazoo) originally meant "pruning", but Greek scholars universally agree that there is no justification for the translation of "cutting off" in Matthew 25:46.

"English Lexicon of the New Testament" by W. Arndt and F. W. Gingrich
"The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament" by Moulton and Milligan
"Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament" by Joseph Thayer
"Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" by Gerhard Kittel
"Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words" by W.E. Vine

All of the above agree that "pruning" or "cutting off" are not appropriate renderings of the term "kolasis" in Matthew 25:46.

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331 - Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses, Ron Rhodes)


"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts."

Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. (pg. 332 - - Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses, Ron Rhodes)

Concerning the meaning of “eternal” in Scripture W.E. Vine explains:

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the N.T., save the places noted above (Eph. 3:11; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ro. 16:25, 26; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2) may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18 (18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.) where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philemon 15 (15 For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever), where only in the N.T. it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16; and of His glory, 1 Pe. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, He. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, He. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, He. 5:9..." (pg. 43, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words).

According to Vine, “aionios” translated “eternal” or “everlasting” in the verses above, does not always mean “for an age.” In fact, it is used predominantly in the New Testament to mean “unending.” As well, every legitimate English translation of the Bible renders “aionios” in Matthew 25:46 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 as “everlasting,” or “eternal” or “forever.” Not one translation opts for the rendering “for an age.” Easton's Bible Dictionary also aligns with Vine's definition of “aionios”:

“Eternal death

The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Heb. 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the "everlasting life," the "eternal life" of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express (1) the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26); (2) of Christ (Rev. 1:18); (3) of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 9:14); and (4) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6).

Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: "Fire that shall not be quenched" (Mark 9:45, 46), "fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17), "the worm that never dies," the "bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1), "the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever" (Rev. 14:10, 11).

The idea that the "second death" (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.

The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men to repentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb. 10:26, 27).”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

LOL! Nice try.

It’s not a try, it’s true. He is the Judge of all the Earth and he said that vengeance (or justice) is His to execute, not ours.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hello,
He doesn't come right and say it. James shows the sin that is already there. Selfishness, "passions at war within you", Coveting. Coveting covers a multitude of sins, adultery, theft, murder...these are all things that you take that which wasn't yours from the beginning.
Not praying properly, not communicating with God, and when it's done, it's done again for selfish reasons. Not for the Glory of God.

Word tells us that what man thinks and does is right in his/her mind, but it's the way unto death.
That rebelling comes from somewhere, We are born with sin in our hearts, it's shown all the way into early childhood. (And no, I do not believe God sends children to hell, that's a whole different subject)

You ever had a child in hand who wanted a toy or something that you had. And you told him/her No, they couldn't have it, and BAM! they go into a temper tantrum, yelling and screaming, moaning and groaning as if they were physically injured. Well, that's typically called lying, because you never touched them. It's also called selfishness, they are young, and i'm sure mom and dad didn't teach them to do that, in most cases. It's also violence, the only reason why that child isn't physically hurting you is because your bigger than him or her.
Now do they know they are sinning? No, I don't believe that. They don't understand that there are consequences for that action. But, once learned that there are consequences for his or her actions, and understand that the choices they make are right or wrong. Then we can question as to where their soul is with God and start teaching them the way of God.
Which is biblical, We are to teach our children about Christ, who he is, what he did and why. When we do,and even if they leave home, they will return to those teachings. Or be reminded of them through conviction by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture tells us Death came but by Adam first. This death is speaking of the Sin that Adam did.

Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for [a]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So yes the Word does tell us that sin is there, through Adam.
We know we sin because of the Law, that God gave Moses and for what he has placed on our heart from the beginning.
The Law is the School master that brings us to Christ.

Your first sentence is the best. James doesn’t come out and say it because none of them thought it. Otherwise this is really long and it’s obvious you are not open to another opinion.

I repeat, I take Jesus’ view on children, babies and as many other topics as I can find what he says about them. None of the others who wrote the Bible had a different view on any subject either. But laying the blame for evil men do on Adam is very popular.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As I said, laying the blame on Adam is very popular. But since you need to borrow responses, no point in trying to discuss.

 

[martymonster]

It’s not a try, it’s true. He is the Judge of all the Earth and he said that vengeance (or justice) is His to execute, not ours.

No, it's not even remotely true. God says again and again, how much he hates double standards....and here you are accusing him of just that.