Questions About Hell

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually you just described Earth, not the traditional Hell.......a place with victims live with the perpetrators...

I said perpetrators receive justice which separates them eternally from their victims as long as the victims weren’t also perpetrators.

..Evil doers live with those who try to do good. etc.

Not in eternity.

.. evil is enjoyed freely by those who wish to enjoy it, and likewise with those that desire to enjoy good.

Except the former group are in hell and the later in Heaven.

Do you feel like you are in Hell now?

Not at all. I’m at the threshold of Heaven.

If so, is this not enough to make you desire a better place.....or do you need to imagine someplace worse?

Ah, I have no need to imagine anything in particular. I seek truth, not what pleases me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dear Dorothy: There is a wonderful equation in our Father's Plan!

In Adam1 many are "made sinners"

In the Last Adam many are "made righteous."

Well it isn’t Adams sin that condemns anyone. One can read the list of condemning offenses written in the books of our lives and what Adam did isn’t there.

 

[RaymondG]

I said perpetrators receive justice which separates them eternally from their victims as long as the victims weren’t also perpetrators.
Not in eternity.
Except the former group are in hell and the later in Heaven.
Not at all. I’m at the threshold of Heaven.
Ah, I have no need to imagine anything in particular. I seek truth, not what pleases me.

You seem to have forget the premise of the statements i responded to.......which was stating that heaven would be hell if the things you stated were true. So no need in continuing this dialogue.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Has anyone read the book: " Blue like Jazz" ?
It's hardly a deep theological book. But there is one section in there about his friend's view of hell that I thought was rather insightful. He Imagined that it would be like floating in space in total isolation for eternity, with only your own thoughts. I suspect that is fairly accurate. I suspect that Hell is being left utterly alone in the outer darkness of your own soul. Because without God's goodness, outer darkness is all that exists. Everything good about life comes from him.

Might be outer darkness, but hell is inhabited by evil beings. I suspect they’re not the same thing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You seem to have forget the premise of the statements i responded to.......which was stating that heaven would be hell if the things you stated were true. So no need in continuing this dialogue.

Not at all. You seem not to understand what I wrote. What I wrote is accurate but Heaven is paradise, not hell and I don’t see why you think I said otherwise. Hell is about as far away as one can get.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God does not have double standards....he despises double standards! There is not one standard for he and another for thee. That is how the corrupt leaders of this world, conduct themselves. Christ tells us what God's standards are, and that he himself adheres to them.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The idea that God would hold us to higher standards than he holds himself to, is utterly mind-blowing!

God has different responsibilities than we do. The police might require private persons not to arrest or hold others in their own personally built prison but it doesn’t mean they don’t arrest some and hold them in jail. Doesn’t mean the standard is different. Means the responsiblities are different.

 

[zoidar]

The effect of one mans sin is more powerful than one Man's righteousness?

Nope!

This I agree on, those in Christ will be saved through much more power and mercy than the sin and condemnation of Adam!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This I agree on, those in Christ will be saved through much more power and mercy than the sin and condemnation of Adam!

My reading of the Bible is our own sin separates us from God. Neither Jesus nor any of the disciples preached we are condemned by what Adam did, if we read what they preached to unbelievers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your questions are clearly set up to argue Universal Salvation.

Why is it so important to US people to convince other Christians that their doctrine is true? We already know we are going to heaven. Are you trying to thwart the Great Commission commandment of Christ? Or are you saying we should tell the world, "Do nothing, believe nothing, and live your life as you wish because you are already saved?"

This is the same message Satan gave Eve in the Garden:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Very interesting comparison.

“The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

My reading of the Bible is our own sin separates us from God. Neither Jesus nor any of the disciples preached we are condemned by what Adam did, if we read what they preached to unbelievers.

Yes I agree, I believe in ancestral sin which is an Orthodox belief that we did not inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin but we did inherit his sinful nature in which causes us to sin and our guilt is of our own sins. I also don’t believe in total depravity. I do believe man can do good of his own free will but without Christ’s atonement our good deeds are tainted by our sin and worthless in God’s sight.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Albion]

Yes I agree, I believe in ancestral sin which is an Orthodox belief that we did not inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin but we did inherit his sinful nature in which causes us to sin and our guilt is of our own sins. I also don’t believe in total depravity. I do believe man can do good of his own free will but without Christ’s atonement our good deeds are tainted by our sin and worthless in God’s sight. ‬‬

That sounds almost as though you DO believe in total depravity.

 

[aiki]

As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)

John 3:36
Romans 1:18
Romans 2:5
Ephesians 5:6
Revelation 6:16
Revelation 16:19
Revelation 19:15

If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?

Remedial discipline is for God's children (Hebrews 12:5-11). Punishment is for God's wicked, rebellious enemies and is not intended to remediate them. See above.

Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?

God's everlasting punishment of the wicked is not for the good of those being punished. In the punishment of hell, we see God's perfect justice done and witness the expression of His righteous and holy wrath upon the unrepentant wicked and in this God's punishment of the wicked is good.

As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?

Not in the way those who are "joint-heirs with Christ" are the objects of His love. There is a general, generic love and grace God extends to all as Creator, but for His own redeemed and adopted children, there is the special paternal love of a Father (Romans 8:16-17) in which the lost do not share.

If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)

If God does not judge the wicked how is He any better than they are? If God's love is not constrained by His holiness and justice, how is His love any better than our own corrupt, selfish, sentimental human love? (Proverbs 6:16-19; Psalm 1:5-6; Psalm 7:11)

As "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)

God does not design the evil of humanity, but He does create the potential for it in us and allows us to choose to do evil. We cannot truly love God if we cannot choose to hate Him. And when a person hates God, evil ensues.

As "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)

Clearly, God does not think of the punishment of hell as an "endless ill." It is a severe punishment, to be sure, but this does not, by itself, make hell wrong or bad. The punishment of the wicked in hell is just and right, a perfect expression of the holy wrath of God upon evil people.

As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)

This question assumes hell is an evil. It is a place of punishment, but this does not make hell evil.

Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?

Not at all. See above.

If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?

God no more does evil in judging the wicked than a judge in a human court of law does evil in judging crime and rendering punishment upon it.

The problem is, I think, that we are entirely too soft on sin. We don't see our sin as God sees it. And so we think that His judgment of it is inordinate, even evil. But that is a testament to our ease with sin, not to a fault on God's part.

As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

Justice and holiness are good. And God exercises both of these things in His judgment and punishment of the unrepentant wicked.

Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

Not from the perspective of a sin-cursed human being who lives with sin every day, commits sin every day, and often loves sin. From God's perfectly holy and just perspective - which is the only perspective that matters - His punishment of the wicked in hell is entirely right and good.

If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

Does God hate imperfectly? Like we do? No. Unlike us, His hatred is holy, and just, and true.

It is always a mistake to extrapolate from ourselves to God; He is not like us; He is not a human; He is GOD.

Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

Not in His essential nature, no.

 

[FineLinen]

God's everlasting punishment of the wicked is not for the good of those being punished. In the punishment of hell, we see God's perfect justice done and witness the expression of His righteous and holy wrath upon the unrepentant wicked and in this God's punishment of the wicked is good.

Dear Aiki: Do you know the ONLY Scripture that speaks of "everlasting punishment" is relating to not the wicked at all. In fact the punishment is to two clean animals, not one clean and the other unclean. And what are the conditions for aionios kolasis?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then that means that you DO believe in total depravity.

I guess, depending on which version of total depravity you believe in. Some believe that man can do no good of his own free will and some believe that man can do no good in the eyes of God of his own free will.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God's everlasting punishment of the wicked is not for the good of those being punished. In the punishment of hell, we see God's perfect justice done and witness the expression of His righteous and holy wrath upon the unrepentant wicked and in this God's punishment of the wicked is good.

I would add this in support of your statement.

“The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Without JUSTICE, no Integrity. No value. No worth for ANY person.

 

[FineLinen]

Well it isn’t Adams sin that condemns anyone. One can read the list of condemning offenses written in the books of our lives and what Adam did isn’t there.

Dear Dorothy: The fact is Adam brought all of mankind into sin with him. We are sinners by nature, sin flows in our blood and every last chromosome.

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now...."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Starting with something true, to try to get someone hooked,
then continuing with evil falsehood,,, here: bite the apple, it's okay !

Old trick.

 

[smithed64]

Some pretty good stuff on here.

One thing I haven't read and is what does God hate?

He hates the soul of the wicked, all the day long.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

He hates sin.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things which the Lord hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination [a]to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.

Mainly he hates sin, because it separates us from Him.

Yes, God is Love. But he is also a righteous and Just God.

Those who think that all will be saved and there will be no eternal judgment, Didn't listen or read what Christ had to say about those.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

Is Hell Eternal?
Yes, Why?
Because God is eternal and his judgment is eternal.

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

But even if, EVEN IF, it wasn't eternal.
One day in Hell, would feel like an eternity. For one day without the presence of God, is one day too many.

It is eternal though.

God is Love. He allows us by his permissive will to make choices in our lives. To live for Him or not to. But what we don't have any choice or control over, is the consequences of that choice.

God Is righteous, he is absolute Goodness, perfect in every way. We on the other hand, are not. Not one of us is good nor are we righteous.

Mark 10:18
18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

The righteousness we claim is as a dirty rag to God.

Isaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Sin is the transgression of God's laws.
Have you lied? then your a liar
Have you commited adultery? Jesus said that if a man look at a woman with lust you've commited adultery in your heart already.
Have you murdered someone? The scriptures shows us that if we hate our brother we are murders and have no eternal life within us.

These are only 3 of the 10 That God wrote with his own finger to give to us and that he places on our hearts from the beginning. If your at fault with one, you are in fault of all of them.

And as shown, transgressors of the law are punished, if not met with the blood of Jesus Christ to have those sins cleansed away.

We don't know the mind of God. And anyone who thinks they do...well your wrong. But what we do know thru his Word is that God does love us yes, but he will judge us by our deeds. If you haven't repented of your sins, placed in trust in Christ alone. Then you are going to have a very bad and uncomfortable eternity to face. Hell.
Denying it won't make it go away, trying to soften it, won't make it any easier. Not that anyone did deny it here. But many do in general. It scares them. It wouldn't if they just repent and trust in Christ.

Besides, we will leave this ol body, cause we're just passing through visiting. We just leave one place and God puts us in another place. For it is appointed for all men to die, then Christ.

Great post here though, God loves you all, as do I in Christ. Bless you all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dear Dorothy: The fact is Adam brought all of mankind into sin with him. We are sinners by nature, sin flows in our blood and every last chromosome.

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now...."

That scripture does not say all of mankind was brought into sin with Adam. Does not say we are sinners by nature. The "creature" is not us. We are the sons of God or children of God, a separate group in the scripture. So where do you think this supports in born sin nature?

By the way, I prefer James' explanation for sin: "What causes conflicts and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from the passions at war within you? 2You crave what you do not have; you kill and covet, but are unable to obtain it. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3And when you do ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may squander it on your pleasures."

How come James did not blame a sin nature when discussing the subject?