Questions about gathering of saints to Christ

[garry2]

Jen, I couldn't find the post where you mentioned the New Jerusalem, so I will put this here:

It seems to me that the mansions that Christ has prepared for His bride for the catching up to Him, is the New Jerusalem which comes from out of Heaven to earth at the end of the millinium.

And after the millinium there will be people living on the New Earth, with Christ and His Bride on Earth in the New Jerusalem, and The Father will be there also, in TNJ.

And there will be a new Heaven for the Angels and others that live there.

I think we will be able to do quite a bit of travelling.

I never have had much in the way of holidays here.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen, I couldn't find the post where you mentioned the New Jerusalem, so I will put this here:

It seems to me that the mansions that Christ has prepared for His bride for the catching up to Him, is the New Jerusalem which comes from out of Heaven to earth at the end of the millinium.

And after the millinium there will be people living on the New Earth, with Christ and His Bride on Earth in the New Jerusalem, and The Father will be there also, in TNJ.

And there will be a new Heaven for the Angels and others that live there.

I think we will be able to do quite a bit of travelling.

I never have had much in the way of holidays here.

Here you go!

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.


Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country-a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.



Phl 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Phl 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.




Hbr 12:22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,



Rev 21:2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

 

[oldandnew]

Where else is that 1 Thess.4 idea of being "caught up" to the meet our Lord in the "air"? Why can't we find that literal example elsewhere written in God's Word?
The best comparison in Revelation is with chapter 11 and God's two witnesses rising after the three and a half days. And note immediately after that is the seventh trumpet of Christ's coming (i.e., the change at the twinkling of an eye). But does that mean Christ's saints are raptured off the earth, and the wicked are "left behind"? What are all the events written that happen on earth with Christ's second coming on the 7th last trump?

When He returns, the vail of the Heavenly will be lifted off the nations. The wicked won't have to have a TV showing Christ coming in the clouds with Glory. All will see Him as written, because the heavenly is going to be revealed right here on earth. That seventh last vial is poured out into "air", and that's pointing to that last trump change at Christ's coming.

So don't you think trying to find a rapture before all that is going against those Scriptures in God's Word?

God's Heavenly Abode is indeed in Heaven. But per God's Word, has that location always meant up off away from this earth?

Have you ever considered about God's Garden of Eden in Genesis 2, where it was located there? In the Greek Septuagint OT, that word Eden is the word for paradise. Eden represents God's Heavenly Abode. Wherever His Garden of Eden or Paradise is, that's where His Heavenly Abode is. Note in Genesis 2 Eden was once upon this earth as written. Note in Gen.3 God booted Adam and Eve out of His Garden, and then placed Cherubims and the flaming sword to guard the way of the Tree of Life. Genesis holds part of the key to understanding Revelation, and it's very important to understand that. That represents God removing His Eden (Paradise) from off this earth to where It is right now.

Also note in Genesis 2, that a River flowed out of Eden and branched off to four other rivers on the earth. Have you considered what that River is, compared to the River in Rev.21 and Ezek.47?

The Rev.20 Scripture shows the "beloved city" and "camp of the saints" is on earth. It's also where Satan and his armies will come to do battle at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign. That points to the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to the earth when Christ returns. If that's a rapture, then it is to the Holy Land on earth, where that "camp of the saints" will be.

Ezekiel is given the same vision John was given in Rev.21 (see Ezek.40). The difference is that Ezekiel was being shown where the Holy City would be, on earth, in the land of Israel, meaning the Holy Land. The same River of the Waters of Life, and the many trees in Ezek.47 on earth is that same River and Tree of Life of Rev.21.

Oldandnew

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Where else is that 1 Thess.4 idea of being "caught up" to the meet our Lord in the "air"? Why can't we find that literal example elsewhere written in God's Word?

Well, it's a resurrection and gathering to God, right?

Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly. Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it.


Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.



Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.



Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Joe 2:16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.


There are more, including the symbolism of Exodus 19 where Moses consecrates the people and leads them to meet with God at the sound of a trumpet.

The best comparison in Revelation is with chapter 11 and God's two witnesses rising after the three and a half days. And note immediately after that is the seventh trumpet of Christ's coming (i.e., the change at the twinkling of an eye). But does that mean Christ's saints are raptured off the earth, and the wicked are "left behind"? What are all the events written that happen on earth with Christ's second coming on the 7th last trump?

Well, it depends on where we belong. There's a whole lot of scripture that speaks about heaven being our home and the New Jerusalem as the place prepared for us...and then there's a promise that Christ would take us there in John 14.

When He returns, the vail of the Heavenly will be lifted off the nations. The wicked won't have to have a TV showing Christ coming in the clouds with Glory. All will see Him as written, because the heavenly is going to be revealed right here on earth. That seventh last vial is poured out into "air", and that's pointing to that last trump change at Christ's coming.

Can you prove that the last vial is the change to immortal bodies?

So don't you think trying to find a rapture before all that is going against those Scriptures in God's Word?

Not at all, given the scriptural evidence that there is a gathering to Him of His people prior to judgment and wrath.

God's Heavenly Abode is indeed in Heaven. But per God's Word, has that location always meant up off away from this earth?

Have you ever considered about God's Garden of Eden in Genesis 2, where it was located there? In the Greek Septuagint OT, that word Eden is the word for paradise. Eden represents God's Heavenly Abode. Wherever His Garden of Eden or Paradise is, that's where His Heavenly Abode is. Note in Genesis 2 Eden was once upon this earth as written. Note in Gen.3 God booted Adam and Eve out of His Garden, and then placed Cherubims and the flaming sword to guard the way of the Tree of Life. Genesis holds part of the key to understanding Revelation, and it's very important to understand that. That represents God removing His Eden (Paradise) from off this earth to where It is right now.

Christ reigns until everything is put under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. According to scriptures, there is still death and disobdience during the millenium. The New heavens and new earth come together after death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire at the GWT judgment when the old order passes away. Rev 20 says when the New Jerusalem comes down (as a Bride, no less), then death will be no more.

 

[oldandnew]

I agree that God's Kingdom in full will only come after death, Satan, the wicked, and hell all go into the "lake of fire". But look in Rev.22 at the 14th and 15th verses, at what they point to. Christ contrasts those who may enter through the gates into the city, vs. those outside it. What is that 'city' He means there? It's the "beloved city", the same "camp of the saints" spoken of in Rev.20:9, on earth, where Satan leads his armies in a final battle against it after the thousand years. That's in Revelation, and that's declaring just where our Lord Jesus will reign from during that thousand years, and thereafter.

This is John being shown the "great city", taken up on a high mountain in the spirit...

Rev 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

This next example is Ezekiel being shown that same city, but note where this vision reveals its location...

Ezek 40:1-2
1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.
2 In the visions of God brought He me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
(KJV)

The city is in the Holy Land on earth per Ezekiel's version of the vision. Then Ezekiel is given the dimensions of a Temple that has never been built by man. In Ezekiel 47 he is given a vision of that same River of the Waters of Life, and the Tree of Life John was shown in Rev.22.

Those Scripture examples do not fit ideas of us being raptured off the earth to be protected from God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked. Instead, we are protected by Christ within the Holy City on earth.

That is even like Noah's ark as a type. God sealed Noah and his family within the ark, and they were protected. Likewise, when God told Israel to go into their chambers in Egypt and not venture outside, and to observe His passover, He protected them while they were in the midst of the wicked that suffered God's plagues.

Even with the Daniel 3 example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, they were in the midst of the hot fiery furnace, Christ with them, and they did not come to any harm. But outside the hot firey furnance, the king of Babyon's servants were burned up. Compare that with the time of Rev.20:9 forward.

Oldandnew

 

[oldandnew]

Jen, look closely at the events in connection with the 7th vial. I'll begin with the 6th vial to keep the flow...

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

That's in connection with the 6th trumpet in Rev.9, about the four angels bound at the river Euphrates being loosed for a particular hour, day, month, year. We are told there their power is in their mouths (meaning lies). That's how they slay a third part of men, i.e., by deception. It's connected with the time of false messiah being cast to the earth to bring the powerful deception (time of trouble, the great tribulation).

Rev.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

That's a direct connection to the "another beast" and "dragon" of Rev.12 and 13, coming to work great signs and wonders on the earth.

Rev.16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Recall Rev.12:7 forward says Satan's angels are cast down to the earth with him. That gathering points to towards the end of the great tribulation, when the dragon (Satan) and his armies will come upon Jerusalem and God's people to try and destroy. That's pointing to the battles of Armageddon and Hamongog when God gathers the nations around Jerusalem to pour out His cup of wrath upon them (see Zeph.3:8; Zech.14).

Rev.16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Christ then warns to be watching those events, so as to stay in Him throughout all that. We know upon many His coming will as a thief in the night (1 Thess.5). That connects to the events of His second coming on the 7th trumpet. It is getting ready to sound at this point, for the false one came on the 6th trumpet (2nd woe - Rev.9-11).

Rev.16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

No Greek word for that Hebrew Armageddon. It means the hill of Megiddo, a place north of Jerusalem in the Holy Land. However, from its rendering in the Greek, or transliteration, two Greek words are used which mean to pour out and to surround. It's linked to the Zephaniah 3:8 idea of God gathering Satan's armies around Jerusalem to pour out His cup of wrath upon them.

Rev.16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

That 7th vial poured out into the "air" is related to the 7th angel sounding...

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
(KJV)

That vial poured out into the air represents God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked. The following events tie with it also...

Rev.16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Per Zech.14, when Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, the mount is split to the north and south, and a great valley or plain is formed there runing east and west.

Rev.16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(KJV)

That's in connection both to the Zech.14 events of Christ's returning to Jerusalem, to the Mount of Olives, and the Rev.11 events on the 3rd woe, which is also about the time of Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. Note the great earthquake link, which is that splitting of the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem when Christ's feet touch down on earth...

Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
(KJV)

And of course, that 7th last trumpet sounding is connected to the "last trump" Paul taught which is when Christ returns and the resurrection occurs....

1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(KJV)

Those events are spread out in Scripture when being described, but they actually occur very close together in time.

Oldandnew

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen, look closely at the events in connection with the 7th vial. I'll begin with the 6th vial to keep the flow...

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

That's in connection with the 6th trumpet in Rev.9, about the four angels bound at the river Euphrates being loosed for a particular hour, day, month, year. We are told there their power is in their mouths (meaning lies). That's how they slay a third part of men, i.e., by deception. It's connected with the time of false messiah being cast to the earth to bring the powerful deception (time of trouble, the great tribulation).

Rev.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

That's a direct connection to the "another beast" and "dragon" of Rev.12 and 13, coming to work great signs and wonders on the earth.

Rev.16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Recall Rev.12:7 forward says Satan's angels are cast down to the earth with him. That gathering points to towards the end of the great tribulation, when the dragon (Satan) and his armies will come upon Jerusalem and God's people to try and destroy. That's pointing to the battles of Armageddon and Hamongog when God gathers the nations around Jerusalem to pour out His cup of wrath upon them (see Zeph.3:8; Zech.14).

Rev.16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Christ then warns to be watching those events, so as to stay in Him throughout all that. We know upon many His coming will as a thief in the night (1 Thess.5). That connects to the events of His second coming on the 7th trumpet. It is getting ready to sound at this point, for the false one came on the 6th trumpet (2nd woe - Rev.9-11).

Rev.16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

No Greek word for that Hebrew Armageddon. It means the hill of Megiddo, a place north of Jerusalem in the Holy Land. However, from its rendering in the Greek, or transliteration, two Greek words are used which mean to pour out and to surround. It's linked to the Zephaniah 3:8 idea of God gathering Satan's armies around Jerusalem to pour out His cup of wrath upon them.

Rev.16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

That 7th vial poured out into the "air" is related to the 7th angel sounding...

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
(KJV)

That vial poured out into the air represents God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked. The following events tie with it also...

Rev.16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Per Zech.14, when Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, the mount is split to the north and south, and a great valley or plain is formed there runing east and west.

Rev.16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(KJV)

That's in connection both to the Zech.14 events of Christ's returning to Jerusalem, to the Mount of Olives, and the Rev.11 events on the 3rd woe, which is also about the time of Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet. Note the great earthquake link, which is that splitting of the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem when Christ's feet touch down on earth...

Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
(KJV)

And of course, that 7th last trumpet sounding is connected to the "last trump" Paul taught which is when Christ returns and the resurrection occurs....

1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(KJV)

Those events are spread out in Scripture when being described, but they actually occur very close together in time.

Oldandnew

There is other scripture besides Revelation that tells the timing of events so that Revelation doesn't get jumbled up and turned around.

Joel 2 describes
1. Massive invasion (Psalm 82, Ezek 28, Ezek 38/39)
2. trumpet and gathering of consecrated people (1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, Rev 7)
3. God destroying the invading army
4. Earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening BEFORE time of judgment and wrath (compare to seal #6)
5. Spirit poured out (compare to 144,000) after destruction of invading army


Matthew, Mark describe:

1. Wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution in increasing frequency and intensity aka "tribulation" (Seals 1-4 of Rev 6)
2. Earthquake, sun/moon/stars darkening (Joel 2, Rev 6)
3. Satan cast down (powers of heaven shaken, stars fall) (Rev 12, and Rev 6:13)
4. (skips mention of antichrist)
5. Christ comes in clouds and sends angels to kill bad and gather good. (7th trumpet)

Daniel 7-12 speak of the antichrist along with 2 thess 2 and Revelation.

So, if you put it all together....

We have been in the tribulation since Christ ascended. The very next event is ALL of the following:

1. War in heaven
2. Gathering to Christ (giving of white robes -glorified bodies)
3. Earthquake, sun/moon/stars darken
4. Invading army to Israel
5. Satan cast down
6. Pour out spirit on 144,000 of Israel

then...

7. Antichrist takes stage
8. Temple built which antichrist defiles
9. Judgment and wrath and wars continue on the unrepentant.
10. Christ comes

 

[oldandnew]

Most all those other Scriptures you mention support the timing of the last three trumpets and 3 woe events. And those 3 woe events in Revelation 'cannot' be switched out of order.

The "last trump" change Paul taught does not occur until the 7th trumpet sounding, which also is that same trump sounding of 1 Thess.4:16-17, and that is when Christ's coming happens to gather His elect per Matt.25. There will be no secret gathering to Christ period. The idea of a secret gathering, or a gathering prior to the "last trump" (7th) is not written in God's Word.

Oldandnew

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Most all those other Scriptures you mention support the timing of the last three trumpets and 3 woe events. And those 3 woe events in Revelation 'cannot' be switched out of order.

The "last trump" change Paul taught does not occur until the 7th trumpet sounding, which also is that same trump sounding of 1 Thess.4:16-17, and that is when Christ's coming happens to gather His elect per Matt.25. There will be no secret gathering to Christ period. The idea of a secret gathering, or a gathering prior to the "last trump" (7th) is not written in God's Word.

Oldandnew

THAT is a HUGE assumption...that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the trumpet of 1 Cor 15 & 1 Thess 4 that signals the change to glorified bodies.

It could be the 2nd of two trumpets sounding together as in Numbers 10 when the people are called to the temple.

When you read 1 Thess 4 about what happens, it says that the dead rise and then we are changed and we all are caught up together in the air. Using Numbers 10 as an example, why wouldn't the 1st trumpet be to raise the dead and the last trumpet be to change and catch up?



And as far as Revelation goes, here's what I see;

Seal #1
Seal #2
Seal #3
Seal #4

Seals 1-4 were opened consecutively together upon Christ's ascension and are the great tribulation

Seal #5 Giving of white robes (glorified bodies)
Seal #6 Earthquake, sun/moon/stars darken signaling beginning of wrath, devil cast down - stars fall. (144,000 sealed)
Seal #7 Trumpet 1-6, Bowls 1-7, Trumpet 7 (Two witnesses, reign of beast, wrath, return of Christ in there too)

Seals 5-7 are opened consecutively together as Christ is returning - all of these events are smaller events in the large event that is the return of Christ before He physically sets His foot on the Mt. of Olives.

It's interesting that the opening of seals is the same as the Feasts...4 in the Spring, 3 in the Fall.

 

[oldandnew]

Truly Jen, the 1 Thess.4 "trump" and the 1 Cor.15 "last trump" is the same event. It's about Christ's coming. I know these verses have been beat almost to death, but they really are simple as to the subject. So it's not an assumption.

1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

What's the subject? It's those who sleep in Jesus and His coming. And His bringing them with Him when He does come. So the timing is tied to Christ's second coming.

In Revelation 11:14-15, at the end of the 2nd woe, the 3rd woe happens with the 7th trumpet, and is tied with Christ's coming. In 1 Cor.15:52, the idea of the "last trumpet" means the farthest or final one. There's no 8th, 9th, or 10th trumpets mentioned in Revelation. The 7th is the very last one. That's the one Paul was teaching us about in both Scripture examples, for it is linked to the time of Christ's coming.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Paul was covering the resurrection in the 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture. That's what that being "caught up" is about, but he goes into more detail about it. The two Scripture examples are hard-linked together, and occur at Christ's coming. In 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul gives more clues as to the timing of Christ's coming.

In 1 Thess.4 Paul is giving us a comfort about our brethren in Christ that have already died, showing those who remain on earth until Christ's coming will be gathered with them and our Lord. In 1 Cor.15 Paul is giving more details of that same coming and the change those who remain on earth will go through in order to join with the saints Christ brings with Him, descending to the earth per Zechariah 14.

1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Through Adam death came upon all men. Also through Christ, all will be made alive, meaning either raised from the dead or being changed if on earth at Christ's coming. Recall the "rich man" of Luke 16 was raised also, and taken to hell (see John 5:29 and Matt.25 about the symbolic goats). The unjust are changed or raised at that same moment also (see John 5 further down).

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

Here again the resurrection and gathering to Christ is linked with the time of Christ's coming. Since Paul marks that resurrection timing later in 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump", that's when the gathering to Christ of His occurs.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

That also is connected with the voice of the archangel, the trump of God sounding in 1 Thess.4. Note both the just and the unjust are resurrected or changed at that moment.

And in the very next chapter of 1 Thess.5, Paul continues that subject of the gathering to Christ, and says this...

1Thes 5:1-2
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus taught that His coming would take many by surprise like a thief breaking in your home at midnight. He told us to be like a goodman of the house, staying alert and watching (Matt.24:42-44; Mark 13:34-37; Luke 12:39-40; Rev.3:3; Rev.16:5). That's the metaphor Paul also was teaching us there in 1 Thess.5:2 about Christ's coming.

Oldandnew

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Truly Jen, the 1 Thess.4 "trump" and the 1 Cor.15 "last trump" is the same event. It's about Christ's coming. I know these verses have been beat almost to death, but they really are simple as to the subject. So it's not an assumption.

1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

What's the subject? It's those who sleep in Jesus and His coming. And His bringing them with Him when He does come. So the timing is tied to Christ's second coming.

In Revelation 11:14-15, at the end of the 2nd woe, the 3rd woe happens with the 7th trumpet, and is tied with Christ's coming. In 1 Cor.15:52, the idea of the "last trumpet" means the farthest or final one. There's no 8th, 9th, or 10th trumpets mentioned in Revelation. The 7th is the very last one. That's the one Paul was teaching us about in both Scripture examples, for it is linked to the time of Christ's coming.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Paul was covering the resurrection in the 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture. That's what that being "caught up" is about, but he goes into more detail about it. The two Scripture examples are hard-linked together, and occur at Christ's coming. In 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul gives more clues as to the timing of Christ's coming.

In 1 Thess.4 Paul is giving us a comfort about our brethren in Christ that have already died, showing those who remain on earth until Christ's coming will be gathered with them and our Lord. In 1 Cor.15 Paul is giving more details of that same coming and the change those who remain on earth will go through in order to join with the saints Christ brings with Him, descending to the earth per Zechariah 14.

1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Through Adam death came upon all men. Also through Christ, all will be made alive, meaning either raised from the dead or being changed if on earth at Christ's coming. Recall the "rich man" of Luke 16 was raised also, and taken to hell (see John 5:29 and Matt.25 about the symbolic goats). The unjust are changed or raised at that same moment also (see John 5 further down).

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

Here again the resurrection and gathering to Christ is linked with the time of Christ's coming. Since Paul marks that resurrection timing later in 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump", that's when the gathering to Christ of His occurs.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

That also is connected with the voice of the archangel, the trump of God sounding in 1 Thess.4. Note both the just and the unjust are resurrected or changed at that moment.

And in the very next chapter of 1 Thess.5, Paul continues that subject of the gathering to Christ, and says this...

1Thes 5:1-2
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus taught that His coming would take many by surprise like a thief breaking in your home at midnight. He told us to be like a goodman of the house, staying alert and watching (Matt.24:42-44; Mark 13:34-37; Luke 12:39-40; Rev.3:3; Rev.16:5). That's the metaphor Paul also was teaching us there in 1 Thess.5:2 about Christ's coming.

Oldandnew

Oh, no, I agree that 1 Cor 15's "last trumpet" and 1 Thess 4's "trumpet call of God" are the same. My question is are they the same as the 7th trumpet in Rev?

I'm thinking they are different.

 

[aggiebob]

Just my belief...

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations...

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God. (These are Martyrs. Martyr also refers to Witnesses) and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" (The End)
11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been would be completed also.

Until enough martyrs have so that all the nation would know Christ

 

[oldandnew]

Yes Jen, the "last trumpet" Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 is that same 7th trumpet of Revelation. The reason is, because the word "last" means the farthest one out in final. The 7th trumpet is the very last trumpet written of in Revelation.

And note in Rev.10:7 and Rev.11:15 that last trumpet signifies consumation. In Rev.11:14-15 that last trumpet is linked with the 3rd last woe.

Then, notice in Rev.16:17 the seventh angel pouring out the last 7th vial also signifies that same consumation as the 7th trump does.

Oldandnew

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes Jen, the "last trumpet" Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 is that same 7th trumpet of Revelation. The reason is, because the word "last" means the farthest one out in final. The 7th trumpet is the very last trumpet written of in Revelation.

And note in Rev.10:7 and Rev.11:15 that last trumpet signifies consumation. In Rev.11:14-15 that last trumpet is linked with the 3rd last woe.

Then, notice in Rev.16:17 the seventh angel pouring out the last 7th vial also signifies that same consumation as the 7th trump does.

Oldandnew

But had John even written down the Revelation at the time when Paul said that?

 

[oldandnew]

You mean how could Paul know about the 7 trumpets of Revelation if John was given Christ's Book of Revelation after Paul's death?

Well, Paul didn't say 7th trumpet, but the last or final trumpet. There are OT references to that final trumpet event (Isa.27:13; Zech.9:14). Paul would have known those Scriptures.

Also, Paul declared how he received The Gospel of Jesus Christ from no man, but directly from Christ Himself (Gal.1). Because Paul wrote of endtime events like 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.5, there's more reason to believe that he knew about a final trumpet sounding when Christ's returns (note the events of Hebrews 12 also). If you might think I'm assuming all that, then why would Paul say "last" (eschatos) "trump" when speaking of those events? If Paul had only said "trump" in 1 Cor.15 like he did in 1 Thess.4, then I would agree with your point. Yet Paul's Epistles reveal he was familiar with latter day events and their order.

oldandnew

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You mean how could Paul know about the 7 trumpets of Revelation if John was given Christ's Book of Revelation after Paul's death?

Well, Paul didn't say 7th trumpet, but the last or final trumpet. There are OT references to that final trumpet event (Isa.27:13; Zech.9:14). Paul would have known those Scriptures.

Also, Paul declared how he received The Gospel of Jesus Christ from no man, but directly from Christ Himself (Gal.1). Because Paul wrote of endtime events like 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.5, there's more reason to believe that he knew about a final trumpet sounding when Christ's returns (note the events of Hebrews 12 also). If you might think I'm assuming all that, then why would Paul say "last" (eschatos) "trump" when speaking of those events? If Paul had only said "trump" in 1 Cor.15 like he did in 1 Thess.4, then I would agree with your point. Yet Paul's Epistles reveal he was familiar with latter day events and their order.

oldandnew

Those passages are for the Lord's return in judgment and wrath. I have no doubt that there will be a trumpet at that event.
But there is nothing there about the redemption of our bodies to glorified bodies and gathering of the consecrated ones to Himself.

Check out the "last trumpet = last Jubilee/last "Yobel" thread and tell me what you think.

It's about how God proclaimed that there would be 120 years (Jubilees) for fallen flesh. (120 x 50 = 6000 years) And then what? That flesh is redeemed and we get glorified bodies. (Our spirits were reborn at the time of Christ - for those who believe) So the last Jubilee (Hebrew: yobel - which means blast from a trumpet or ram's horn) is when our fleshly bodies are changed to be like His body...at the last "trumpet", the last Jubilee/Yobel.

 

[ross3421]

But had John even written down the Revelation at the time when Paul said that?

Text of events does not need to be written for PROPHETS to know of them........Paul knew precisely of the 7th last trumpet.

Mark

 

[zeke37]

Those passages are for the Lord's return in judgment and wrath. I have no doubt that there will be a trumpet at that event.
But there is nothing there about the redemption of our bodies to glorified bodies and gathering of the consecrated ones to Himself.

Check out the "last trumpet = last Jubilee/last "Yobel" thread and tell me what you think.

It's about how God proclaimed that there would be 120 years (Jubilees) for fallen flesh. (120 x 50 = 6000 years) And then what? That flesh is redeemed and we get glorified bodies. (Our spirits were reborn at the time of Christ - for those who believe) So the last Jubilee (Hebrew: yobel - which means blast from a trumpet or ram's horn) is when our fleshly bodies are changed to be like His body...at the last "trumpet", the last Jubilee/Yobel.

since flesh ends when Christ returns, we get those new bodies....and since Paul states that it is at the last trump....and another place, Paul states that it is at the trump of God(same time as you agree)

John not only already had these 2 interpretations of Paul, but he had Revelation from God directly. John knew all about the last trump....the farthest trump out there....there is no more trumps after the last trump...the last is the last...

John gives the interpretation with trumps and the last is the last.
if God meant to convey the second last or third last trump, then He would have said so.....yours is such a stretch....

in His service
c

 

[HisdaughterJen]

since flesh ends when Christ returns, we get those new bodies....and since Paul states that it is at the last trump....and another place, Paul states that it is at the trump of God(same time as you agree)

John not only already had these 2 interpretations of Paul, but he had Revelation from God directly. John knew all about the last trump....the farthest trump out there....there is no more trumps after the last trump...the last is the last...

John gives the interpretation with trumps and the last is the last.
if God meant to convey the second last or third last trump, then He would have said so.....yours is such a stretch....

in His service
c

The only problem with that is we're gone before the devil is cast down (2 thess 2, Rev 12, Rev 7) which is also prior to the judgment and wrath poured out on the earth (Rev 6, Rev 7, Rev 9, 1 Thess 5, etc) which is prior to trumpet #7.

So, the change to glorified bodies (seal #5 of Rev 6) happens prior to "more martyrs", prior to judgment and wrath, and prior to Christ's physical return at the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

So, the 7th trumpet cannot be the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Cor 15. It would have to be something else. Since a Jubilee is literally in Hebrew "Yobel" and the meaning is "blast from a ram's horn or trumpet", then wouldn't it be beyond logical the the last Yobel is the time when our bodies of flesh (for the past 120 Yobel's - 6000 years) are changed to immortality?

Check out Genesis 6:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

When does our flesh get redemption?

Rom 8:23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

1Cr 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cr 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–
1Cr 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cr 15:53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.



That change has to be at the last "yobel", at the 6000 year mark, because God declared in Genesis 6 that our bodies of flesh are given 120 years (120 Jubilees/Yobels = 6000 years)

 

[zeke37]

The only problem with that is we're gone before the devil is cast down (2 thess 2, Rev 12, Rev 7) which is also prior to the judgment and wrath poured out on the earth (Rev 6, Rev 7, Rev 9, 1 Thess 5, etc) which is prior to trumpet #7.

if that is the only problem, then perhaps you interpretation is flawed....since we are not removed early, the flaw is indeed yours...one you teach to others.

none of the quoted scriptures you gave point to pre trib...not at all...2Thes2, states the falling away from the faith called apostasy (no matter what you change it to mean) and Satan must be revealed first before the Gathering to Christ..Satan's casting to earth in Rev12 is before the Gathering to Christ...Rev7 is the sealing of the elect, who are on earth for that whole time...and sealed before the first trump even sounds. they are sealed with the Word of God. Rev9 is the entire length of the final tribulation...5 months. And we are told Satan's limitations..he cannot kill anyone...we have power over him in Christ's name.

So, the change to glorified bodies (seal #5 of Rev 6) happens prior to "more martyrs", prior to judgment and wrath, and prior to Christ's physical return at the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

absolutely not....you base that on incorrect division of God's Word...

seal 5 is not the change to glorified bodies...that happens at the 7th trump...see Rev14.

So, the 7th trumpet cannot be the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Cor 15.

sure it can...and it does...your pre trib is simply wrong...simple.

just throw away pre trib, and it will all make perfect sense...

in His service
c