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Questions about gathering of saints to Christ

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HisdaughterJen

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if that is the only problem, then perhaps you interpretation is flawed....since we are not removed early, the flaw is indeed yours...one you teach to others.

none of the quoted scriptures you gave point to pre trib...not at all...2Thes2, states the falling away from the faith called apostasy (no matter what you change it to mean) and Satan must be revealed first before the Gathering to Christ..Satan's casting to earth in Rev12 is before the Gathering to Christ...Rev7 is the sealing of the elect, who are on earth for that whole time...and sealed before the first trump even sounds. they are sealed with the Word of God. Rev9 is the entire length of the final tribulation...5 months. And we are told Satan's limitations..he cannot kill anyone...we have power over him in Christ's name.


absolutely not....you base that on incorrect division of God's Word...

seal 5 is not the change to glorified bodies...that happens at the 7th trump...see Rev14.


sure it can...and it does...your pre trib is simply wrong...simple.

just throw away pre trib, and it will all make perfect sense...

in His service
c
We go up and the devil comes down:

Hebrew Names Version:
2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first (GREEK WORD "APOSTASIA" which means to move away from the place of standing), and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;



It is not apostasy that is standing in the way and holding back the revealing of the man of sin. IT is the church!!!!!!

Here's more proof;

1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.


Here's more proof:

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”




Who are living in heaven when the devil is cast down?

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”


...

Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.





When were those white robes given?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer (for what? JUDGMENT OF THE EARTH! it was the answer to their question), until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed (more people are martyred before judgment but that doesn't hold up the giving of white robes) as they had been was completed.



So what are the white robes, Zeke? The bridal clothes!

Rev 19:6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
Rev 19:8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)



Do you think that something as big as the promised redemption of our bodies which have been in a fallen state for 6000 years would not have a place in the book of the Bible that discusses the end times?
 
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zeke37

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We go up and the devil comes down:

not quite...he comes down, we stay and fight him spiritually.....no one goes up from that point on...Christ is coming here, and bringing the dead believers with Him.

Hebrew Names Version:
2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you 2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come. 2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. 2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;



It is not apostasy that is standing in the way and holding back the revealing of the man of sin. IT is the church!!!!!!

I have never read that translation before.

underlining does not prove anything Jen. try the KJV...
where did you read church? I did not read church....

you say the church is departing "off the earth" while it is a departure, but from truth and faith in Christ....not off of the planet...

this is a serious flaw that you teach others.

the apostasy is when the professing Christians fall away from faith and worship the antiChrist as Jesus returned.

who is restraining the devil? well, Michael is...as we are told in Daniel and Rev. will Michael cast Satan from heaven to the earth??? Yes he will. hmmmmm..

so when Michael, our protecting prince (God's general), casts Satan and his angels out of heaven, they come here and cause the apostasy, as the un-elect Christians worship him, thinking he is Messiah returned...


pre trib is very dangerous...accepting the first Jesus to rapture you away...not that he can actually leave the planet with you....but he can lead you on and have you wait (till the total number is in) so to speak!!!

with you beliefs, you will simply write it off if you see him walking the planet...claiming to be Jesus....just change something else to fit the theology...


I pray that is not the case with you...but pre trib is so leading to this end...



Here's more proof;

there has been no proof offered yet Jen...just your speculation, wrong as it is.....sorry for the tone.

1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

yep...salvation comes post trib, not pre trib....

this does not support your claims at all Jen.


Here's more proof:

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

simply verse 10 declares that He has the victory, that the time has come...and Satan is cast from heaven to earth, so there is no more accusations from him against the believers...

this is the time of Jacob's trouble in which He shall find out who is who....

the time has come....

(don't you believe that others shall have a Salvation chance after this??? Your statement is not fluent...)

verse 11, is about the testimony of the elect, and they likewise have overcome...they believe in Him.

and they are on the earth, because that is where Satan is cast down to in the previous verse.

because he is cast out of heaven and to the earth...which marks the end times and the soon coming victory of Messiah, they rejoice in heaven...this is the plan and it is finally happening....yeah!

this testimony does not have the result of death....the elect are 100% protected...they are not afraid to die (they know they are protected) and Satan's name is DEATH.


Who are living in heaven when the devil is cast down?

the angels...including the dead in Christ....in their resting places.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

yep...same theme...does not mean that they are removed early...2 groups in Rev7...the elect alive on earth and the elect dead (in the flesh) in heaven....these are the ones who return with Him in 1Cor15 and 1Thes4...YOU are not the ones coming with Him....YOU may be one of the ones that He comes for to Gather to Himself and the others....


...

Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

yep...as you well know...this has been going on for 2000 years...these are the dead in Christ...



When were those white robes given?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer (for what? JUDGMENT OF THE EARTH! it was the answer to their question), until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

notice the difference Jen.... robes that are washed white...given white robes...

still, from the past 2000 years in Rev7...but these in Rev6 are speaking of the election (dead to the world) who must first wait till the entire number comes to election, and then the 4 winds of Rev7 can proceed. These are alive in the flesh but dead to the world.



So what are the white robes, Zeke? The bridal clothes!

Rev 19:6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
Rev 19:8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

all believers are dressed in fine linen in heaven...you have not proven anything here Jen, accept that you are mistaken. this is the end right? And the robes are given at the end right? so wouldn't your group of supposed pre tribbers be given their robes at the end? Stay focused!!!

in His service
c
 
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HisdaughterJen

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all believers are dressed in fine linen in heaven...you have not proven anything here Jen, accept that you are mistaken. this is the end right? And the robes are given at the end right? so wouldn't your group of supposed pre tribbers be given their robes at the end? Stay focused!!!

in His service
c
Zeke,

Anyone who has washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb has been consecrated by Christ. Compare it to Exodus 19 where Moses consecrated the people and they washed their robes for 2 days (those consecrated by Jesus for 2000 years).

The giving of white robes in the 5th seal is the giving of glorified bodies. (If it's not, then what do you think it is?)

The multitude wearing those white robes in Rev 7 have, just like in Exodus, been consecrated by the blood of the Lamb. They have come out of a 2000 year (2 day)great tribulation and are standing before the Lamb and the throne singing about how their salvation has come...the very salvation which they have been waiting for those past 2000 years.

Exd 19:10And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes
Exd 19:11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
Exd 19:12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
Exd 19:13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.”
Exd 19:14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes.
Exd 19:15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”
Exd 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
Exd 19:17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Exd 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently,
Exd 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him



side note:
I'll bet this event happened on a Jubilee year...

Edit...YUP! Hebrew Interlinear online says Exodus 19:13 is "eibl" or "Jubilee horn"...WOW! If that's not a good case for the last Jubilee is the last trumpet, then I don't know what is!!!!SO COOL!!! Now, how, oh how, could I possibly have guessed that?????
 
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zeke37

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Zeke,

Anyone who has washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb has been consecrated by Christ. Compare it to Exodus 19 where Moses consecrated the people and they washed their robes for 2 days (those consecrated by Jesus for 2000 years).

I agree

The giving of white robes in the 5th seal is the giving of glorified bodies. (If it's not, then what do you think it is?)

no it is not. It means just what you said it means above...they are in Him...representing the elect who are good to go...

The multitude wearing those white robes in Rev 7 have, just like in Exodus, been consecrated by the blood of the Lamb. They have come out of a 2000 year (2 day)great tribulation and are standing before the Lamb and the throne singing about how their salvation has come...the very salvation which they have been waiting for those past 2000 years.

the dead in Christ, not some fictional pretrib raptured group

Exd 19:10And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes
Exd 19:11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
Exd 19:12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
Exd 19:13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.”
Exd 19:14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes.
Exd 19:15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”
Exd 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
Exd 19:17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Exd 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently,
Exd 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him

I read this before Jen....nothing here about pre trib...


side note:
I'll bet this event happened on a Jubilee year...

Edit...YUP! Hebrew Interlinear online says Exodus 19:13 is "eibl" or "Jubilee horn"...WOW! If that's not a good case for the last Jubilee is the last trumpet, then I don't know what is!!!!SO COOL!!! Now, how, oh how, could I possibly have guessed that?????

sorry?

what does Jubilee and pre trib have to do with each other?

in His service
c
 
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HisdaughterJen

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sorry?

what does Jubilee and pre trib have to do with each other?

in His service
c
God said in Genesis 6 that there are 120 years for mortal flesh.

Since He set the pattern of sevens and Jubilees, we can then understand that 120 years is 120 Jubilees.

That is 120 Jubilees from the Fall until mortal flesh becomes immortal...until the change to the redemption of our bodies.

So, it happens in the year 6000 (120 x 50 Jubilees) since the fall of mankind. It happens at the catching away. Those who belong to God are resurrected and changed and we who are alive are resurrected and changed. Our home is in heaven until the end of the Sabbath-millenial reign of Christ.

We were able to become "born again" of the Spirit when Christ came...for the past 2000 years, incidentally 4000 years after that part of Adam died instantly when he fell.
 
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zeke37

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God said in Genesis 6 that there are 120 years for mortal flesh.

that declaration was made exactly 120 years before the flood of Noah's day....because of what was happening with regards to the fallen angels and their offspring.

Since He set the pattern of sevens and Jubilees, we can then understand that 120 years is 120 Jubilees.

That is 120 Jubilees from the Fall until mortal flesh becomes immortal...until the change to the redemption of our bodies.

So, it happens in the year 6000 (120 x 50 Jubilees) since the fall of mankind. It happens at the catching away. Those who belong to God are resurrected and changed and we who are alive are resurrected and changed. Our home is in heaven until the end of the Sabbath-millenial reign of Christ.

I disagree...our home is here according to much of Ez40-48 and many other scripture...believers spend the Millennium not in heaven...but on earth...the rest of the dead are in heaven waiting judgement...


it is in heaven until Christ arrives and then it is here forever and ever AMEN.

We were able to become "born again" of the Spirit when Christ came...for the past 2000 years, incidentally 4000 years after that part of Adam died instantly when he fell.
the catching away is not pre trib...but post trib, when the dead return with Christ and the elect on earth are Gathered to them.


we are going in circles Jen.

in His service
c
 
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garry2

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zeke37:
John knew all about the last trump....the farthest trump out there....there is no more trumps after the last trump...the last is the last...
John gives the interpretation with trumps and the last is the last.


John never mentioned a last trump, but a 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th.
 
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garry2

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zeke37:
with you beliefs, you will simply write it off if you see him walking the planet...claiming to be Jesus....just change something else to fit the theology...

If he is claiming to be Jesus, how would he get ths jews to follow him?
he claims to be above all that is called God, that rules out Jesus.
11. Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Stay focused!!!

Ha ha why the belittling?
 
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