Questions about gathering of saints to Christ

[Bobgf]

The 5th seal martyrs were given white robes to wear in heaven, so they're more than just spirits in heaven.

Also, they are told to be patient, until the full number of their brothers are killed, in like manner as they were.

When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.
(Rev 6:9-11)

So these 5th seal martyrs will be in heaven before Satan's trib is ended, since no saints will be killed after Satan's trib is ended by Jesus' coming.

I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:4,5)


So weve got two groups of martyrs. Those killed before Satan's trib and those killed during Satan's trib.



Paul tells us the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1Thes 4: 16,17).



Now if Paul is saying ALL the dead in Christ will be gathered to him BEFORE we who are alive are gathered,

And if the martyrs are gathered in two separate raptures before the millennium (Rev 6:9 and Rev 20:4),

And if the rest of the dead don't come to life until after the millennium (Rev 20:5),

Does that mean the 1Thes 4:17 rapture of the living does not occur till after the millennium???



Otherwise, it appears we have first a rapture of martyrs, then a rapture of living, then another rapture of martyrs, all before the millennium?? And where do we put the rapture of the dead in Christ who are NOT martyrs?

 

[holdon]

Now if Paul is saying ALL the dead in Christ will be gathered to him BEFORE we who are alive are gathered,

No, Paul is saying the dead will be resurrected and the alive will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

We, who have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (believers in Christ over the last 2000 years) are consecrated by Jesus. (compare Exodus 19 to Rev 7)

We have the firstfruits of the Spirit. We will be gathered to God as firstfruits (we are the body of Christ). (1 Cor 15)

We have to depart the earth when Satan gets booted out of heaven and comes down to the earth. (2 Thess 2)

Jesus prepared a place for us there, a city, the Heavenly Jerusalem. He promised that he would come back and take us there. (John 14)

Scripture makes it clear that this happens prior to judgment and wrath which we are not appointed to suffer. (several places)

 

[Bobgf]

No, Paul is saying the dead will be resurrected and the alive will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM to meet the Lord in the air.

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangle and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1Thes 4:16)

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.(1Thes 4:17)

Holdon, there are two events here:

1) first the dead in Christ will rise.


2) second those who are left will join them



Now there may be only microseconds between these two events, (1) and (2)

but they are separate events, and Paul doesn't say how long between them

There's nothing in the scriptures that say they can't be 1000 years apart.

 

[holdon]

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangle and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1Thes 4:16)

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.(1Thes 4:17)

Holdon, there are two events here:

1) first the dead in Christ will rise.


2) second those who are left will join them



Now there may be only microseconds between these two events, (1) and (2)

but they are separate events, and Paul doesn't say how long between them

There's nothing in the scriptures that say they can't be 1000 years apart.

Yes, there is: Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them

 

[Bobgf]

We, who have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (believers in Christ over the last 2000 years) are consecrated by Jesus. (compare Exodus 19 to Rev 7)

We have the firstfruits of the Spirit. We will be gathered to God as firstfruits (we are the body of Christ). (1 Cor 15)

We have to depart the earth when Satan gets booted out of heaven and comes down to the earth. (2 Thess 2)

Jesus prepared a place for us there, a city, the Heavenly Jerusalem. He promised that he would come back and take us there. (John 14)

Scripture makes it clear that this happens prior to judgment and wrath which we are not appointed to suffer. (several places)

Jen, you may be correct in everything you've posted,
but you haven't addressed the OP question.



There are several categories of raptured dead saints:

1) martyrs gathered in Rev 6:9

2) martyrs gathered in Rev 20:4

3) non martyrs who died in Christ raptured in Rev 1Thes 4:16

4) two witnesses raptured in Rev 11:12



Question is,

which one of these four groups
are the living saints gathered to Christ with in Rev 1Thes 4:17 ?

 

[Bobgf]

Yes, there is: Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them

holdon, I might ask you same question I asked Jen.

Which of the groups of raptured dead saints do you believe the living saints will be gathered with.

 

[holdon]

holdon, I might ask you same question I asked Jen.

Which of the groups of raptured dead saints do you believe the living saints will be gathered with.

I don't understand: "which groups of the raptured dead saints". What do you mean?

Read again:

The risen dead and the alive are RAPTURED TOGETHER!

 

[Bobgf]

I don't understand: "which groups of the raptured dead saints". What do you mean?

Read again:

The risen dead and the alive are RAPTURED TOGETHER!

Sorry, holdon, I'm having difficulty framing my question.


The scriptures show at least three separate groups of martyred dead saints are gathered prior to the millennium (see Rev 6:9, Rev 11:12 and Rev 20:4).

It appears the group of dead saints of 1Thes 4:16 includes non-martyred saints

Since, The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. (Rev 20:5)

I'm wondering if the non-martyred dead saints of 1Thes 4:16 are raptured prior to the millennium or after the millenium?

 

[holdon]

Sorry, holdon, I'm having difficulty framing my question.


The scriptures show at least three separate groups of martyred dead saints are gathered prior to the millennium (see Rev 6:9, Rev 11:12 and Rev 20:4).

It appears the group of dead saints of 1Thes 4:16 includes non-martyred saints

Since, The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. (Rev 20:5)

I'm wondering if the non-martyred dead saints of 1Thes 4:16 are raptured prior to the millennium or after the millenium?

Read 1 Thess 4:16,17
"for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
4:17 then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord.
We see clearly two groups:
1. the dead in Christ (who are resurrected)
2. the living who remain

Then we see that these 2 groups are caught up (=raptured) together (=we the living WITH them (the risen dead) and meet the Lord in the air.

In Rev 20:4 you see others raised: those that died after the rapture. Because after the rapture moment of 1 Thess 4 there will be others who will come to belief: from the nations as well as from the Jews. And some of them will have died (martyred) when Christ comes. They will then be resurrected. This concludes the First Resurrection.

The ones that will be resurrected after that, are all the unbelievers: they will stand before the Great White Throne.

 

[Bobgf]

Read 1 Thess 4:16,17
"for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
4:17 then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord.
We see clearly two groups:
1. the dead in Christ (who are resurrected)
2. the living who remain

Then we see that these 2 groups are caught up (=raptured) together (=we the living WITH them (the risen dead) and meet the Lord in the air.

In Rev 20:4 you see others raised: those that died after the rapture. Because after the rapture moment of 1 Thess 4 there will be others who will come to belief: from the nations as well as from the Jews. And some of them will have died (martyred) when Christ comes. They will then be resurrected. This concludes the First Resurrection.

The ones that will be resurrected after that, are all the unbelievers: they will stand before the Great White Throne.

Thanks for your patience, holdon. My head is all cluttered right now with questions. Gotta stop and think for awhile.

 

[zeke37]

Hi Saint2, I am a post tribber if you didn't know...used to be a pre tribber...please take no offence to my post.

The 5th seal martyrs were given white robes to wear in heaven, so they're more than just spirits in heaven.

Also, they are told to be patient, until the full number of their brothers are killed, in like manner as they were.

I agree...if we are dead in Christ, and we believe that He has Risen, then likewise all who are in Him have risen...they are with Him right now in new celestial bodies (same image, but incorruptible spirit bodies) as 1Cor15 whole chapter describes.

When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.
(Rev 6:9-11)

So these 5th seal martyrs will be in heaven before Satan's trib is ended, since no saints will be killed after Satan's trib is ended by Jesus' coming.

I agree...but I would add that no elect (those sealed) will be killed in the tribulation, as the teaching of the unpardonable sin teaches (not a hair on their head)...only the two olive trees (one of the two witnesses) will be killed. The rest are supernaturally protected and kept in that time...kept safe right in the valley of the shadow of death...so fear no evil.

God needs those with the seal of God, called elect...for a testimony against the fake Jesus...right in front of him, and public to the world in a great trial. They are completely protected by The Holy Spirit in that time and they will actually fulfill that which Joel spoke of...and seen in Acts2 as a type for us...God will speak through them and ALL will understand in their own language. And then He will return

I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:4,5)


So weve got two groups of martyrs. Those killed before Satan's trib and those killed during Satan's trib.

that is how the verses are traditionally read, but I am assured by the Word that there is complete protection given to the elect in that time...so none are killed...

so I read the verse and divide it (properly I pray) in this manner...colour coded for ease...

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

two groups,

one from Christ's day (John the Baptist was beheaded..many were and still are to this very day) until the fake Jesus arrives, who is really Satan cast from heaven to the earth. These are all the dead in Christ, who come with Him as 1Thes4:13 teaches...which is the subject...where are the dead and where are they going to be.

they are with Christ, and they are Coming back with Him at the Last trump. Therefore this is not any pre trib rapture verse, but a post trib rapture verse.(there is no real pre trib verse)

and

who they meet up with when Christ arrives and changes all flesh to "air"/spiritual body, breath of life body, celestial body, again as 1Cor15 teaches-another post trib bunch of verses. The elect...alive at the time of His Coming, and are changed (as all flesh is at that time)...and are Gathered together with the dead in Christ...these are the first fruits, the first resurrection.


Paul tells us the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1Thes 4: 16,17).

air, I just explained...caught up=seized....

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

clouds...

check this out, the army that Christ comes back with, the dead in Christ...is a vast multitude...a large amount of people...here is the adjective cloud used, as it is in 1Thes4

Heb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

this is going to be the same kind of cloud coming with Christ. Christ is not hiding behind a cloud when He Comes...ALL will see Him, and ALL will bow. And there will be a vast amount of witnesses that Come with Him.

Now if Paul is saying ALL the dead in Christ will be gathered to him BEFORE we who are alive are gathered,

either you are dead ....or...you are alive at the time when Christ arrives...Paul is dead now...we are alive...BEFORE simply refers to the fact that the dead are already with Him now, and our belief and promise is that He shall bring them back with Him when He comes....and that is at the last trump. (the last trump in Rev is the 7th one...and in Rev14 we see the Lamb of God on Mt. Zion with the elect...

after that, the wrath of God....to which the elect have nothing to fear...

And if the martyrs are gathered in two separate raptures before the millennium (Rev 6:9 and Rev 20:4),

the rapture is not in Rev6:9... but is in Rev20. Those are either the elect in Heaven, looking down on earth,

or

they are the elect on earth who are not physically dead in the flesh, but are dead to this world and reborn in Christ...and are saddened by the events they see every day...wanting God to Come....as we do.

still working on that one myself...

And if the rest of the dead don't come to life until after the millennium (Rev 20:5),

Does that mean the 1Thes 4:17 rapture of the living does not occur till after the millennium???

the rapture of 1Thes4:17 is the same rapture of Rev20:4.

simply, when the dead in Christ return, the alive Saints (elect) are Gathered to them and collectively they go to Mt Zion and land...boom....big change to spiritual bodies...all flesh ends...and the 1000 years begin. there is no 7 years in between, but mere "micro-seconds" as you theorized...IMO that is.

Otherwise, it appears we have first a rapture of martyrs, then a rapture of living, then another rapture of martyrs, all before the millennium?? And where do we put the rapture of the dead in Christ who are NOT martyrs?

I believe I gave you my understanding of that above...

Jen, you may be correct in everything you've posted,
but you haven't addressed the OP question.



There are several categories of raptured dead saints:

1) martyrs gathered in Rev 6:9

this is not a rapture but an understanding, a seal given to the elect, about the martyrs waiting...not a rapture..

2) martyrs gathered in Rev 20:4

3) non martyrs who died in Christ raptured in Rev 1Thes 4:16

4) two witnesses raptured in Rev 11:12

these are all at the same time...the last trump

Question is,

which one of these four groups
are the living saints gathered to Christ with in Rev 1Thes 4:17 ?

1Thes4 tells us in verse 13 that the subject is where the dead are, and we learn that they are with Christ, and Coming back with Christ...and those elect alive are Gathered to them...they are the first fruits...

Sorry, holdon, I'm having difficulty framing my question.


The scriptures show at least three separate groups of martyred dead saints are gathered prior to the millennium (see Rev 6:9, Rev 11:12 and Rev 20:4).

Rev 6:9 is not a rapture

The two witnesses are killed 3 days prior, and raptured when the alive elect are...when He returns.


It appears the group of dead saints of 1Thes 4:16 includes non-martyred saints

Since, The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. (Rev 20:5)

I'm wondering if the non-martyred dead saints of 1Thes 4:16 are raptured prior to the millennium or after the millenium?

dead in Christ come back with Him...it does not specify that one has to be martyred to do so...in Verse 13 of 1Thes4. All who are dead in Christ return with Him just as scripture promises...so we are not to be ignorant as the heathen are about what happens to the dead in Christ....

continued
vvvvv
vvv
v

 

[zeke37]

Read 1 Thess 4:16,17
"for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
4:17 then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord.
We see clearly two groups:
1. the dead in Christ (who are resurrected)
2. the living who remain

we see the dead in Christ returning to earth with Him, and the elect alive being Gathered together with them....forever...the first fruits...post trib, not pre trib...at the last trump.

Then we see that these 2 groups are caught up (=raptured) together (=we the living WITH them (the risen dead) and meet the Lord in the air.

yep...post trib...air = spiritual / celestial body (1Cor15) AND CLOUD = mass multitude of believers...witnesses as in Heb12:1....in this case it is the dead in Christ returning with Him.

In Rev 20:4 you see others raised: those that died after the rapture.

there is only the two olive trees of Rev11 who are killed late in the trib..everyone else is not killed...the elect are sealed and protected of God.....and everyone else has the mark of the beast and cannot be killed either as Rev9 teaches. Rev20:4 can be divided to show the two groups, the dead in Christ, and he elect alive that did not take the mark....(the subject of the mystery change of 1Cor15 and the "we which are alive" part of 1Thes4:17)

Because after the rapture moment of 1 Thess 4 there will be others who will come to belief:


nope...the seals are given, and then the trumps begin...the winds cannot start their destructive force until all the elect are sealed...and then....

when the total number is sealed...poooof, that is it, the trib begins and Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth to play act Christ returned....

either you are sealed with the truth, or you are not and will take the mark...

all Christians are not elect...most will be fooled by this fake Jesus...perhaps think he is Christ come to rapture them away....hint hint...a flood of lies from this one who speaks like a dragon but looks like a lamb.

from the nations as well as from the Jews.

neither...the total number is in...and then the trib starts..the elect 144,000 are Christians from both sticks, both houses... the scattered northern tribes and the southern kingdom, not just Jews...Rev7. No converts during the trib...there will be many elect who come out of Babyl right at the end of the trib....right at that trial of the elect...when God speaks through them...but they were always elect, just needed to be shaken up a bit first...

And some of them will have died (martyred) when Christ comes. They will then be resurrected. This concludes the First Resurrection.

only the two olive trees of Rev11 are killed...every other elect person is supernaturally protected or they have a destiny...the first resurrection is for the dead in Christ who return with Him and the elect alive at His Coming...they (with Christ best-first) are the first fruits

The ones that will be resurrected after that, are all the unbelievers: they will stand before the Great White Throne.

Thanks for your patience, holdon. My head is all cluttered right now with questions. Gotta stop and think for awhile.

yes honestly, there is a lot to think about...I fear that one looking for the Messiah to rapture you away early is setting one up to believe the lies of Satan when he comes, as he must come first. 2Thes2.

in His service
c

 

[HisdaughterJen]

1Cr 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.





So, scripturally, how many resurrections are there?

1. Christ
2. Those who came out of their graves at Christ's resurrection

3. We who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, consecrated by Jesus whose citizenship is in heaven, in the place prepared for us, the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven at the end of the millenium.
4. The two witnesses (after the 5th trumpet - the beast out of the abyss kills them Rev 9...?)
5. The martyrs of the beast (After Christ returns)
6. GWT judgment (after the millenium)


Side note:
At some point the 144,000 of Israel who are also called firstfruits are seen in heaven but there is nothing concerning their death in scripture. They are on earth for the trumpets...at least through the 5th trumpet so presumably, they may be raptured when the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured.


So, Christ and the those who were raised at His resurrection are resurrected.

We are waiting for the salvation, the resurrection and giving of glorified bodies and the catching away to be with God. Our departure happens as the devil is kicked out of heaven down to the earth. And then the man of sin is revealed to the world.

2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;



1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.



Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”


So, the overcomers are in heaven when the devil is hurled to the earth.

 

[k2svpete]

The reference in Rev 6 is the blood of the martyrs crying. Couple of basics, the life is in the blood and on the sacrificail alter the blood pooled underneath it. These are those who dies for their faith early on in the establishment of the church.

144 000. Representative number. How many tribes of Israel - 12. 12 x 12 000 = 144 000. Bit too neat so I'd venture it is a symbolic number.

 

[k2svpete]

Oh, and as I mentioned in another thread. Don't forget Rev is the same prophecy told in two different ways. First ten chapters and then the remainder.

 

[Markea]

1Cr 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I think that this is one of the most important verses to consider.. I have always read it as three separate groups.. Christ.. the firstfruits (church of God), and then the tribulation saints.. ie, those who are killed in the tribulation..

AND.. according to the order of 1 Cor 15.. the firstfruits are resurrected before the coming of Christ.

AND that makes sense because the church of God is the bride of Christ.. and the marriage of the Lamb takes place IN HEAVEN, prior to Christ coming WITH His saints..

 

[Markea]

ALSO.. notice this verse from Luke's gospel.. the Lord is telling His people (context is Israel) that they should have their lamps burning and trimmed.. so that they are READY when their LORD returns from where... ? ?

From the wedding...

Interesting.. isn't it.. the church of God will be at the wedding although Israel will be going through the tribulation..

[bible]Luke 12:35-36[/bible]

Pretty cool if you ask me.. and just do the math.. if the Lord is returning from the wedding.. and the church of God is the bride, then obviously the bride would be AT the wedding.. and this person is told to be ready for when HE returns from the wedding..

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Its because of all of the controversy to do with these seperate raptured matrys that i said that the souls in the 5th seal may not be literal language but figurative language. God does not meed to have all these different raptures. Paul speaks of one resurrection and one rapture and I believe in one resurrection and one rapture prior to the millennium where will be a resurrection for the rest of the dead who were not raised in the first resurrection.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

ALSO.. notice this verse from Luke's gospel.. the Lord is telling His people (context is Israel) that they should have their lamps burning and trimmed.. so that they are READY when their LORD returns from where... ? ?

From the wedding...

Interesting.. isn't it.. the church of God will be at the wedding although Israel will be going through the tribulation..

[bible]Luke 12:35-36[/bible]

Pretty cool if you ask me.. and just do the math.. if the Lord is returning from the wedding.. and the church of God is the bride, then obviously the bride would be AT the wedding.. and this person is told to be ready for when HE returns from the wedding..

Yes, that is very cool!!!