Tom 1

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Interesting discussion. I’m neither Buddhist nor Christian. But I suppose I’m a simple minded person because I see the fundamental difference simplistically. Both beliefs postulate an eternal existence of perfect contentment and peace of mind—free of all worldly cares, suffering, and desire. Christianity teaches you can only achieve this through a savior. Buddhism teaches you can achieve this from within yourself.

That's one of the things I'm not clear on, whether the self in Buddhism experiences that peaceful state or whether that self is subsumed into some wider consciousness and so is no longer aware of its own existence.
 
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ananda

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That's one of the things I'm not clear on, whether the self in Buddhism experiences that peaceful state or whether that self is subsumed into some wider consciousness and so is no longer aware of its own existence.
Neither. Through the process of cultivating the Buddhist Path to its end, what we call the "self" just gradually transitions into the peace of nibbana itself, without reference to self (as I understand the Buddhist teachings).
 
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jayem

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That's one of the things I'm not clear on, whether the self in Buddhism experiences that peaceful state or whether that self is subsumed into some wider consciousness and so is no longer aware of its own existence.

It’s my understanding that Buddhists believe individuals go through cycles of birth, earthly life, and death, followed by rebirth. Until enlightenment/Nirvana is reached during a period of life. When that life ends, the cycle ends. The individual remains in the perfect enlightened state, as an individual, eternally. Though there are different Buddhist denominations, and
some doctrines might vary.
 
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ananda

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This is actually a major point of disagreement between various schools of Buddhism which leads to radically different practices. Even your quote from wikipedia mixes up the two points of view.

Most of Theravada Buddhism (which I follow) teach that anatta means "not-self" or "non-self". This is a position that informs our practice, e.g. we are called to meditatively observe how various things in our daily lives are not self - that is, they are impermanent, and cannot be legitimately called "self", since the word "self" implies that the thing is under our total control. We see that the thing is clearly not under our total control, and thus, must be understood as "not-self" or "non-self", which leads to detachment, dispassion, and the cessation of suffering.

Mahayana Buddhism (including Zen, Tibetan, etc.) on the other hand, largely teaches that anatman means "no-self". This is instead a position of faith, e.g. faith in the idea that there is absolutely no self.

(Do I absolutely know that there is "no-self"? No. Can I observe the things in the world to understand that they are "not-self"? Yes.)

The "no-self" position leads to the practice of "crazy wisdom" (e.g. crazy and/or unethical behaviors) - I'm sure you've heard the stories - because they believe that moral/ethical behavior is a sign of thinking in terms of duality (e.g. right vs wrong behavior), and the illusion of self must be destroyed by wholly embracing abberant behavior as a way to express non-duality as a sign of their enlightenment.

The "not-self" position instead leads to a practice of the Path of systematic development where we progressively perceive & understand that various things we ignorantly hold on to in our lives are not self, which naturally leads to cessation of suffering (because we're no longer attached to those things, and suffer when they change, etc.).
 
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Andrewn

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My understanding of Buddhism is that it shares one aim (to avoid suffering), one path (the 8-fold path), one method (meditation), and the belief in reincarnation. I consider this "Buddhist philosophy" and I find that it is basically what most Western practitioners mean when they describe themselves as "Buddhists."

This Buddhist philosophy is different from Theravada, which involves ancestor worship and animistic worship as practiced in Indo-China. It is also different from Mahayana, which by itself can be considered several different religions. I will address here what you said about Theravada.

Most of Theravada Buddhism (which I follow) teach that anatta means "not-self" or "non-self". This is a position that informs our practice, e.g. we are called to meditatively observe how various things in our daily lives are not self - that is, they are impermanent, and cannot be legitimately called "self", since the word "self" implies that the thing is under our total control. We see that the thing is clearly not under our total control, and thus, must be understood as "not-self" or "non-self", which leads to detachment, dispassion, and the cessation of suffering.
The self is "a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others." "Various things in our daily lives are not under our control." This statement seems so obvious that I don't think it requires meditation to realize that it is true. "And thus must be understood as not a person's essential being" This statement makes no sense at all!!

Can I observe the things in the world to understand that they are "not-self"? Yes.)
Things in the world are not a person's essential being. Who would say otherwise? Everyone knows that potatoes and cream cheese are not his essential being. What is so profound about this realization?

The "not-self" position instead leads to a practice of the Path of systematic development where we progressively perceive & understand that various things we ignorantly hold on to in our lives are not self, which naturally leads to cessation of suffering (because we're no longer attached to those things, and suffer when they change, etc.).
Various things we ignorantly hold on to in our lives are not a person's essential being. They can be someone else's essential being but because they're not our essential being we don't have to love them, care for them, or consider their well-being!!!

Am I misunderstanding what you wrote?
 
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ananda

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My understanding of Buddhism is that it shares one aim (to avoid suffering), one path (the 8-fold path), one method (meditation), and the belief in reincarnation. I consider this "Buddhist philosophy" and I find that it is basically what most Western practitioners mean when they describe themselves as "Buddhists."
What you described is actually the minority view (of the Theravada). Mahayana would probably say that its aim is to release others from suffering, through the bodhisattva path (not the eightfold path of Theravada).

This Buddhist philosophy is different from Theravada, which involves ancestor worship and animistic worship as practiced in Indo-China. It is also different from Mahayana, which by itself can be considered several different religions. I will address here what you said about Theravada.
Yes, there is one branch of Theravada that engages in culturally traditional ancestor/animistic worship, and there's another branch of Theravada (which I follow) that does not, and focuses on the teachings of the earliest suttas.

"And thus must be understood as not a person's essential being" This statement makes no sense at all!!
I don't believe I wrote "And thus must be understood as not a person's essential being" in my last post?

Things in the world are not a person's essential being. Who would say otherwise? Everyone knows that potatoes and cream cheese are not his essential being. What is so profound about this realization?
It's not its profoundness that matters, but its utility. The realization that X is not part of our being, causes the mind to automatically detach from it.

Various things we ignorantly hold on to in our lives are not a person's essential being. They can be someone else's essential being but because they're not our essential being we don't have to love them, care for them, or consider their well-being!!!

Am I misunderstanding what you wrote?
Yes, because I don't recall writing about an "essential being". Can you please point me to the post where I wrote about that?
 
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Andrewn

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I don't believe I wrote "And thus must be understood as not a person's essential being" in my last post?

I don't recall writing about an "essential being". Can you please point me to the post where I wrote about that?
No, you didn't write "not a person's essential being." You wrote, "not self." In order to understand what you mean, I replaced "self" with its dictionary meaning "a person's essential being." Do you use a different meaning when you say "not self?"
 
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ananda

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No, you didn't write "not a person's essential being." You wrote, "not self." In order to understand what you mean, I replaced "self" with its dictionary meaning "a person's essential being." Do you use a different meaning when you say "not self?"
I see, thank you for clarifying.

In Buddhist thought, we are attached to various "things" we consider part of the continuum of "self". For example, a child might be attached to her doll, or his toys, etc. identifying with those things to a greater or lesser degree and experience grief if those things change. An older child will likely have gone beyond (detached from) those things, but might still be attached to shoes, clothes, makeup, etc. An adult will also likely have gone beyond (detached from) those things, but might still be attached to his money, house, car, spouse, etc.

The practice of "not self" is essentially that practice involved in growing up: the process of realizing that we are not those things we identify with as "self". The Buddhist Teachings calls us to go beyond the ordinary adult level, to the perception of "not self" towards our body, mind/thoughts, and even consciousness.

The profoundness of this teaching is this: as we progress further towards the understanding and detachment that comes from the practice of "not self", the less suffering & the more peace and bliss we experience. That is the essence of enlightenment and nibbana.
 
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Andrewn

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In Buddhist thought, we are attached to various "things" we consider part of the continuum of "self". For example, a child might be attached to her doll, or his toys, etc. identifying with those things to a greater or lesser degree and experience grief if those things change.
The Bible also warns that tanha can lead to destruction. But it is interesting to describe things we crave as a continuum of "self." I guess egoistic people can consider them as such.

An adult will also likely have gone beyond (detached from) those things, but might still be attached to his money, house, car, spouse, etc.
This is fine so long it doesn't imply that we stop caring for other people and the environment.

The Buddhist Teachings calls us to go beyond the ordinary adult level, to the perception of "not self" towards our body, mind/thoughts, and even consciousness.
Is this different from the Hindu Jnana yoga? Doesn't this lead to the same end as Mahayana that you described as "no self?"

The profoundness of this teaching is this: as we progress further towards the understanding and detachment that comes from the practice of "not self", the less suffering & the more peace and bliss we experience. That is the essence of enlightenment and nibbana.
Detachment from tanha is important in Christianity. But charity to all things must continue, whether people, animals, or plants. Also, we do not detach from our consciousness but rather grow into the ideal consciousness: Christ consciousness.
 
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ananda

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The Bible also warns that tanha can lead to destruction. But it is interesting to describe things we crave as a continuum of "self." I guess egoistic people can consider them as such. This is fine so long it doesn't imply that we stop caring for other people and the environment ... Detachment from tanha is important in Christianity ... But charity to all things must continue, whether people, animals, or plants.
It is our understand that we are truly expressing care for others by perfecting ourselves first. Only the perfected can perfectly lead others to perfection; the imperfect can only lead others to their own grade of imperfection-perfection.

Is this different from the Hindu Jnana yoga?
Jnana yoga has different practices & a different end-goal.

Doesn't this lead to the same end as Mahayana that you described as "no self?"
No, our practice leads to nibbana: the cessation of suffering, and the unending peace and happiness (in essence, a phenomenological state of experience), not to Mahayana's "no self" (a cosmological state of annihilation of beingness).

The Buddha denied that he taught "no self" in the earliest Buddhist scriptures (e.g. MN 22 "I have erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually slandered by those venerable contemplatives & brahmans (who say), ... 'He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.'", cf. SN 44.10, etc.).

However, in their defense, Mahayana generally holds to different scriptures (newer sutras written hundreds of years after the historical Buddha's life).

Also, we do not detach from our consciousness but rather grow into the ideal consciousness: Christ consciousness.
How do you define "Christ consciousness"?
 
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Andrewn

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No, our practice leads to nibbana: the cessation of suffering, and the unending peace and happiness (in essence, a phenomenological state of experience), not to Mahayana's "no self" (a cosmological state of annihilation of beingness).

The Buddha denied that he taught "no self" in the earliest Buddhist scriptures (e.g. MN 22 "I have erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually slandered by those venerable contemplatives & brahmans (who say), ... 'He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.'", cf. SN 44.10, etc.).
Does this mean you believe in conscious life in parinirvana?

However, in their defense, Mahayana generally holds to different scriptures (newer sutras written hundreds of years after the historical Buddha's life).
I understand Mahayana Buddhism as a group of religions that range from atheistic Zen to Pure Land, which almost has Christian tenets. Would you describe your understanding of Mahayana?

How do you define "Christ consciousness"?
The Bible says:

2Pe 1:3-4 His [Christ's] divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and virtue. Through these things He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, since you have escaped the corruption that evil desires have brought into the world.

Partaking of the divine nature is becoming like Christ, having His Consciousness which is pure and sinless and of which He taught in the Gospels, especially the Sermon on the Mount. In the process we attain immortality. Is this the same as parinirvana? When you say, "Only the perfected can perfectly lead others to perfection," we may be talking about something similar.

Of course, in Christianity we have the Spirit of Christ to help us in this process and we don't only depend on meditation.
 
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ananda

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Does this mean you believe in conscious life in parinirvana?
The primary goal for me is the unending peace and happiness of parinibbana ... whether that involves consciousness or not would be a matter of belief at this point, and only a remote, secondary concern.

I understand Mahayana Buddhism as a group of religions that range from atheistic Zen to Pure Land, which almost has Christian tenets. Would you describe your understanding of Mahayana?
IMO their primary distinctions involve 1. the path of the bodhisattva - divine figures who postpones full enlightenment to continue their work within samsara as saviors for all, 2, the worship of those figures as part of that path, and 3. the perception and manifestation of non-duality, with various denominations within Mahayana practicing one or the other or a mix to various degrees.

The Bible says:

2Pe 1:3-4 His [Christ's] divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and virtue. Through these things He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, since you have escaped the corruption that evil desires have brought into the world.

Partaking of the divine nature is becoming like Christ, having His Consciousness which is pure and sinless and of which He taught in the Gospels, especially the Sermon on the Mount. In the process we attain immortality. Is this the same as parinirvana? When you say, "Only the perfected can perfectly lead others to perfection," we may be talking about something similar.
No, it is not the same as parinibbana. We do not see Christ as pure or perfected (the idea that he acts in the Bible shows that he has not transcended suffering); and, immortality is irrelevant to us. The cessation of suffering & the perfection of the unending peace and happiness of nibbana is our greatest goal, without reference to mortality or immortality.

Of course, in Christianity we have the Spirit of Christ to help us in this process and we don't only depend on meditation.
Meditation is only one part of the Noble Eightfold Path; cultivation of the other seven parts are intricately involved in our walk, in the Theravada tradition which I follow.
 
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FireDragon76

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If you are interested in dialogue between Christianity and Buddhism, look up Thomas Merton and DT Suzuki. With monasticism and deep prayer, much of the same ideas and imagery may be employed. There are parallels, but also sincere differences.

Notably, Buddhist ideas of Self is that it is Sunyata, which is often translated as Void. The idea is that the Self doesn't really exist, as at heart there is only the One True Buddha, a sort of Monism. So by attaining enlightenment, the Self dissipates into the unity of Non-Duality, where there is both Self and Not-Self. The Self is largely a confusion of the Khandas, or heaps of desire, that flows forth - constantly changing like a river, and like a river a sort of constant, but the water is different the whole time.

In Mahayana Buddhism, the ultimate end is to help all beings attain enlightenment, and as the Self can only differentiate itself from the One True Buddha Nature by use of a subdividing mind, when that happens, all will simply be the Monistic One in an ultimate state of non-duality - so the self and all bodhisattva will cease to exist. Therevada is a bit different.

Also, Buddhism talks a lot about compassion, but Buddhist compassion is not the Christian variety. Buddhism teaches that desire and attachment leads to suffering, so the goal is to lead all to have no desires tying them here. So Buddhist compassion for suffering also entails compassion for 'suffering' that we would not see as such - such as devotion to a spouse, or love of your children - as ultimately that will pass away and result in pain. This is why Buddhism can excuse Gautama abandoning his wife and child. A noted difference in concept exists between what we mean.

Another good point, is that the One True Buddha is often equated to God by many - but it is more an monistic unity, than a personal relationship. So Buddhists will say things like the love of Oya-sama or the Pure Land of Amidha, that sound Christianesque, but read deeper and the underlying worldview is quite different. A good way to see this is to read up a bit about Nagarjuna at Nalanda, which is where much Mahajana comes from. Keep in mind that there are quite marked differences between the three schools of Buddhism, the three turnings of the wheel of the Dharma of Mahayana, Theravada and Vajrayana, so I am generalising quite a bit.

I read a bit about Buddhism a few years ago, back when trying not to be a Christian, and while I have a lot of sympathy for its monism and the almost Stoic Apatheia in much Mahayana, I could never shake the feeling that Attachment is essentially Good. That loving something is Good, even if temporary and may result in pain. In my mind, the failure of Buddhism in the West in Greco-Roman times goes back to the bedrock of Plato, that essentially optimistic idea of Love from the Symposium that also played such a part in Christianity. Many of the similarities are false friends, only superficially compatible, and I think the modern cachet of Buddhism in the West is mostly the same type of superficial orientalism of Beatles visiting an Indian Guru. When the West falls, maybe things will change, but we are too different culturally for much synthesis.

I don't think Buddhists necessarily see love as bad (how could it, when it is one of the Four Immesurables?). But love is not without consequences, it's not a free lunch. You should count the cost before embarking on something that involves potentially sacrificing inner tranquility and integrity. In this regard I think it's a counterpoint to what can often be a false selflessness and foolishness among Christians.
 
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FireDragon76

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As in there is a self but not one that is definable in terms of transitory experiences?

If there is a self in that sense, it's ineffable and without qualities, and therefore, it's best left unsaid. But that sort of sentiment is more like Hinduism than Buddhism.
 
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FireDragon76

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Having studied Buddhism as part of my degree in Phenomenology of Religion and having journeyed spiritually in that direction for a time, I have to say that it is a thoroughly demonic religion. Any 'parallels' are purely academic and in no way give authenticity to such a depraved belief system.

Paul made it quite clear that pagan religions are demonic and I fully agree.

The idea of multiple paths to the truth is totally deceptive.

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob does not tolerate idolatry as we see from His very first commandment. His Way alone is righteous and His Son, Jesus, perfectly embodies eternal truth.

I well remember returning to my Christian roots was like being rescued from having a one way ticket to the wrong event.

The vitriol-filled sentiment can go both ways, you know. In WWII some Buddhist priests in Japan actually volunteered to join the military for the opportunity to defend their society against the horde of barbarians teaching "the doctrine of demons".
 
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Yusuphhai

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Shunyata , or emptiness, is empty of subject - object relationship. Buddhism is quite Hindu, this spiritual character is hard to be understood(or felt) by Chinese or Japanese. The opposition of opposite things can be relative in Hindu opinion. E.G. the opposition of "me" and "none-me" (and, faith or non-faith)can be non-existent. I think a common Hindu in Sanskrit can understand(or feel) these Hindu spirits better than us . I know in Chinese scriptures of Buddhism, some Sanskrit can not be translated into Chinese, they have only transliteration. In Chinese we only "see" the mirror image of Sanskrit words(Even if the translation is well but can not be perfect), this mirror image is a kind of "empty".

Interestingly, Judaism than Christianity can contain more Buddhist elements because of Abrahamic Oriental descendants. Gen.25:6 .
Noahide Buddhism and Hinduism

A Sanskrit Buddhism song (by 伊藤佳代 a Japanese),Mantra for "deleting" bad memories. We Need not understand (or translate) the Sanskrit words. Just Listen is a kind of way in the field of Psychological healing.

Interestingly, The Hebrew word "Shalom"(Peace) and Arabic word "Salam"(Peace) contains the basic Oriental sound "Om", which is very common in Buddhism.

 
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FireDragon76

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Shunyata , or emptiness, is empty of subject - object relationship. Buddhism is quite Hindu, this spiritual character is hard to be understood(or felt) by Chinese or Japanese. The opposition of opposite things can be relative in Hindu opinion. E.G. the opposition of "me" and "none-me" (and, faith or non-faith)can be non-existent.

It's difficult for most people, and that's sort of the point. If Shunyata were an easy concept, it wouldn't have the significance it does.

Nevertheless, some things in Daoism are equally profound or difficult. It's just for many Chinese or Japanese people, simple, symbolic religion is easier to understand.

Interestingly, Judaism can contain more Buddhist elements because of Abrahamic Oriental descendants. Gen.25:6 .
Noahide Buddhism and Hinduism

A Sanskrit Buddhism song (by 伊藤佳代 a Japanese),Mantra for "deleting" bad memories. We Need not understand (or translate) the Sanskrit words. Just Listen is a kind of way in the field of Psychological healing.

Interestingly, The Hebrew word "Shalom"(Peace) and Arabic word "Salam"(Peace) contains the basic Oriental sound "Om", which is very common in Buddhism.

Jewish mysticism was influenced by Greek and near-eastern philosophy and religion, so while it might appear to be the same in some ways, for instance, some Kabbalistic doctrines are similar to some Mahayana concepts, they are somewhat distinct in origin. It's hard to say for sure, though, since at the time of Judaism's formation as a distinct religion, concepts were flowing back and forth along ancient trade routes across the middle east into Asia. It is possible, for instance, that the Greeks like Pythagoras were influenced by Indian sramanas and monks.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The vitriol-filled sentiment can go both ways, you know. In WWII some Buddhist priests in Japan actually volunteered to join the military for the opportunity to defend their society against the horde of barbarians teaching "the doctrine of demons".

The 'peace' associated with Pagan belief is forbidden in Scripture.

Ezra 9:

‘The land that you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the impurity of its peoples and the abominations with which they have filled it from end to end. 12 Now, therefore, do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. Never seek their peace or prosperity, so that you may be strong and may eat the good things of the land, leaving it as an inheritance to your sons forever.’
 
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Andrewn

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This is a better translation:

Ez 9:12 So do not give your daughters to their sons in marriage or take their daughters for your sons. Never pursue their prosperity or welfare, so that you will be strong, eat the good things of the land, and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever.” (CSB)
 
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