Questioning the Power of God's Forgiveness

[PreachersWife2004]

Razzle, I can't get the quote function to work right now, so this is for you:

I understand that sin has consequences.

One of those consequences shouldn't be someone else saying "you're not good enough..." without realize THEY aren't good enough either.

I paid the worldly price for my consequences already. Why would you think it's okay for the world to continue to make me pay for them?

 

[mkgal1]

I'm of the opinion that often times it's the people that *have* gone down the "wrong paths" that truly understand redemption/compassion/forgiveness the most. Kind of like the prodigal son compared to his brother (who'd always done everything "right" and was arrogant because of that fact). Didn't the Prodigal (after his experience and "coming to his senses") appreciate just *being near* his father and had abandoned all expectations of entitlement? Doesn't that make for a humble person?

What happened to "And we *know* that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose"?

It seems that Christ was okay with people with a history---He chose Paul (Saul)....didn't He?

It's not the history, itself-----it's what has been *learned* from it (IMO). In this original article---to me---it seems the gal had learned and put on "new habits" as it's encouraged in Ephesians 4:24 (and learned about about the judgement of others as well).

Some "old selves" seem to be acceptable just because so many others are wearing the same thing (seems to me, anyway).

 

[mkgal1]

If people's experiences (like this one: My Story: A French, Outrageous, Angry woman Forgiven by God’s Amazing Grace’ (2013)) and this one: Living Testimonies: Testimony of Shelley Lubben Former inappropriate content Actress and Prostitute ) are going to be regarded (by humans) as "not fit for ministry"....then that may be tossing out God's greatest demonstrations of His love/grace/redemption.

I'm not suggesting that young men and women seek out people that have backgrounds like these......but to "warn" them (and wrap that up as "encouragement in love")....I kind of find that sort of disheartening.

 

[mkgal1]

I also wanted to add that I wish I'd learned earlier, myself, about different "fruit" (fruit of the Spirit compared to the fruit of the Pharisees) so that I could have passed that information on to my daughter. To me......that's a valuable lesson (maybe one of the most valuable).

 

[sdmsanjose]

BY VG

The prostitute is normally not aware whether a john is married or not, so imo, she is not an intentional cheat or party to cheating a john's wife

The married John knows he is cheating and the prostitute does not know if the John is married and I am sure most do not ask. My guess would be if the prostitute did ask and found out that the John was married I assume that many would go ahead and take the money and perform anyway.

BY VG
The john is far more culpable than the hooker in the "cheating" she does.

Perhaps the John is more “culpable” than the prostitute but the difference is not enough to debate about. Both are cheaters.

BY VG
“It is typically a response to a series of events imposed on her by others or by life circumstances. So her cheating seems more excusable.

I am sure that in some cases the prostitute has had someone impose on her and life circumstances were hard on her. However there are women that had a series of events that imposed on them by others and life circumstances and never chose with their free will to turn to prostitution. My aunts were raised in a home with a dirt floor, no electricity, and no plumbing. To add to that my grandfather was a drunk and left them when they were small children. My grandmother, that did not speak English, raised those daughters and NONE of them turned to prostitution or to any crime. My grandmother set up a kitchen and got up at 3 AM to fix lunches for the workers and never even went out on a date with any man from her 30s to her death at age 90! All four women were solid committed Christians.

A prostitute can be totally forgiven, become a Christian, can become a very good member of society, and a blessing to many. However, for myself or my sons I would rather choose to marry a woman like my aunts than a forgiven prostitute. I realize that there are exceptions but I still think the CHANCES are better with women like my Aunts and grandmother.

So in summary I think that the chances of having a good wife and a good marriage can be achieved with the forgiven-committed Christian prostitute but the odds of success are better with women like my Aunts!


I Love to see the sinner (prostitute or others) forgiven, accepted, and live a life that is so encouraging and proof of redemption but I am also a realist and think that Christians should consider the gambling odds in this life.

VG, your compassion for such women is commendable!

By VG
“…but as parents, we are to advice. But....that is not the place of the church to tell a PK who to marry based on the fiancé’s past...”

My post was addressing the parent. My post was not addressing the issue of the church telling a PK who to marry. However since you brought up that issue I agree with you 100%.

 

[razzelflabben]

The young lady in the OP was good enough to serve in ministry and teach Sunday School to the congregation's children, but not good enough to marry the pastor's son?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what this has to do with anything. We had a woman in our church that was serving in ministry and teaching SS while having a secret affair on her husband....know another man who was serving and even leading worship who not only had multiple affairs, but ended up leaving his wife and 7 kids one day, cause he preferred to abandon his family than to honor the wife of his youth (see scripture)....so my question is what does her serving and teaching SS have to do with anything in this discussion? Many people hide their sins some so that they can teach and minister in the church.

 

[razzelflabben]

Razzle, I can't get the quote function to work right now, so this is for you:

I understand that sin has consequences.

One of those consequences shouldn't be someone else saying "you're not good enough..." without realize THEY aren't good enough either.

notice the word you used...."shouldn't"....in a perfect world, if we were God and all of us were living fully in the HS, we could take anyone and feel totally comfortable putting them in any position. However, we don't live in that world. That means that the should you talk about, is not going to happen when it comes to everyone inside or outside the church. A frank discussion about the not "should's" in this life is simply wise counsel and God even tells us in His word that the shoulds will not always be there. So, it sounds like you are suggesting that even though we live in a world that does not follow the "should's" of Christian life, we should avoid any discussion of the not shoulds because....? why exactly? God discusses in scripture the not should happens, why shouldn't we discuss them as well? In fact, how many passages would we have to discard just to avoid talking about the what should have or haven't happened? Maybe half, more?

I paid the worldly price for my consequences already. Why would you think it's okay for the world to continue to make me pay for them?

what are you talking about? Seriously! Talking about how people will view you or might view you, both inside and outside the church is not "making you pay for your sins again"! It's just an honest open discussion about the realities of the sinful world we live in and how that will affect our lives, ministry, relationships. Why are you so opposed to discussion about the way sin affects our world?

 

[razzelflabben]

If people's experiences (like this one: My Story: A French, Outrageous, Angry woman Forgiven by God’s Amazing Grace’ (2013)) and this one: Living Testimonies: Testimony of Shelley Lubben Former inappropriate content Actress and Prostitute ) are going to be regarded (by humans) as "not fit for ministry"....then that may be tossing out God's greatest demonstrations of His love/grace/redemption.

okay, I must have missed something. Who is suggesting that the woman or the son in the OP is unfit for ministry? I don't even see that in the OP story. I'm sure some thought that, but that isn't what the story says, nor does it seem to fit what people are saying here. So, are we changing the topic again?

I'm not suggesting that young men and women seek out people that have backgrounds like these......but to "warn" them (and wrap that up as "encouragement in love")....I kind of find that sort of disheartening.

Got a question for everyone with this attitude...what exactly do you think the warning we are talking about is? There has been some specifics given but many seem to just ignore that to continue on their merry way of disagreement. So what warnings do you think are being given?

 

[razzelflabben]

I also wanted to add that I wish I'd learned earlier, myself, about different "fruit" (fruit of the Spirit compared to the fruit of the Pharisees) so that I could have passed that information on to my daughter. To me......that's a valuable lesson (maybe one of the most valuable).

But, and here is the tricky part, if you can't warn your children about the consequences of past sins, then you can't warn them about the yeast of the Pharisees because they are one and the same in many respects. So you just disagreed with warning by saying we should warn...interesting...now sure how that works, but interesting none the less.

 

[mkgal1]

okay, I must have missed something. Who is suggesting that the woman or the son in the OP is unfit for ministry? I don't even see that in the OP story. I'm sure some thought that, but that isn't what the story says, nor does it seem to fit what people are saying here. So, are we changing the topic again?

I don't even know how to phrase what the congregation's issue was. Like VG had asked:

The young lady in the OP was good enough to serve in ministry and teach Sunday School to the congregation's children, but not good enough to marry the pastor's son?

....so what *is* their (the congregations) issue? She's fine to teach children....but not marry the pastor's son? What is it about marrying into the pastoral family is "forbidden" or something to be approached with caution? Obviously all we can do is speculate.

Got a question for everyone with this attitude...what exactly do you think the warning we are talking about is? There has been some specifics given but many seem to just ignore that to continue on their merry way of disagreement. So what warnings do you think are being given?

Where have specifics been given? Based on the article....I don't believe we have specifics (or maybe I missed something....it's been a while since I've read the article).

 

[mkgal1]

But, and here is the tricky part, if you can't warn your children about the consequences of past sins, then you can't warn them about the yeast of the Pharisees because they are one and the same in many respects.

I'm not following you in that reasoning.

The Pharisees sin (that Christ opposed while on earth, during His ministry) was self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and pride (mainly). I see those in direct opposition of genuine righteousness (which is wanting what's best for everyone---for there to be a turning away from sin/wrongs to others).

What lingering consequences (besides the self-righteous judgment of others) do you see in this gal's life in the article from the OP? What can't Christ redeem through her life change?

So you just disagreed with warning by saying we should warn...interesting...now sure how that works, but interesting none the less.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I don't agree that the congregation (or even parents) had the right to "warn" this young man in the article.

I did say that I'd wished I had learned earlier how to tell the difference between different fruit (my daughter is an adult now.....so she's past the stage of me "teaching" her---just as the young man in the article is past that stage).

 

[Hetta]

What a strong message this is (I thought):

Interesting topic given one of the threads on here today and the fact that some people seem to believe that God is 'madder' about some sins than others and therefore won't forgive them. That's not the Bible message I was ever given.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

notice the word you used...."shouldn't"....in a perfect world, if we were God and all of us were living fully in the HS, we could take anyone and feel totally comfortable putting them in any position. However, we don't live in that world. That means that the should you talk about, is not going to happen when it comes to everyone inside or outside the church. A frank discussion about the not "should's" in this life is simply wise counsel and God even tells us in His word that the shoulds will not always be there. So, it sounds like you are suggesting that even though we live in a world that does not follow the "should's" of Christian life, we should avoid any discussion of the not shoulds because....? why exactly? God discusses in scripture the not should happens, why shouldn't we discuss them as well? In fact, how many passages would we have to discard just to avoid talking about the what should have or haven't happened? Maybe half, more?what are you talking about? Seriously! Talking about how people will view you or might view you, both inside and outside the church is not "making you pay for your sins again"! It's just an honest open discussion about the realities of the sinful world we live in and how that will affect our lives, ministry, relationships. Why are you so opposed to discussion about the way sin affects our world?

As I said before, if you came to me to have this "honest discussion about the realities of the sinful world we live in and how it would affect our lives, ministry and relationships" in the way that the congregation did in the opening article, I would shut you down in a heartbeat.

Yes, sin has an effect on our worlds. But you saying that it would be perfectly okay for a congregation to do this to someone who is marrying their pastor's son because "sin has consequences" is what I'm fighting against. Because it is WRONG.

My sin is no greater than your sin. Yet you feel it would be perfectly okay for someone to tell me that I wasn't good enough to marry my husband?

Crock.

 

[mkgal1]

Like Beckie is saying.....a past like this gal in the article doesn't trump the self-righteousness and pride of the congregation (at least that's how I interpret her post). This gal turned *away* from her sin and was living a different life. This congregation was actively being self-righteous and prideful.

Count how many times the Bible records Jesus reprimanding those with a "past" (that they've turned away from) compared to those that were self-righteous and prideful (and then see where the weight is).

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't even know how to phrase what the congregation's issue was. Like VG had asked:

you're reading into the OP article what is not there, which is why it was worded the way it was, to ensight an emotional response. Bottom line, there is a lot in the OP story we don't know which is why we can't talk about that story specifically, only other similar issues.

....so what *is* their (the congregations) issue? She's fine to teach children....but not marry the pastor's son? What is it about marrying into the pastoral family is "forbidden" or something to be approached with caution? Obviously all we can do is speculate.

the article I was directed to, said nothing at all about working with children...only that her life showed change. Thus my question about how that change occurred....a question no one here was willing to touch.

Where have specifics been given? Based on the article....I don't believe we have specifics (or maybe I missed something....it's been a while since I've read the article).

that is exactly my point. Some here keep trying to add to the story what is not there. This makes communication nearly impossible because everyone bases their answers on what they personally wanted to read into the story. The truth of the matter is, there are a lot of details left out. This trick is helpful when trying to elicit an emotional response, which the article obviously (through literary rules) wants to do. The wise man leaves emotions out of it and addresses the things that are actually said or not said as per the general topic, not the specific story in question.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm not following you in that reasoning.

The Pharisees sin (that Christ opposed while on earth, during His ministry) was self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and pride (mainly). I see those in direct opposition of genuine righteousness (which is wanting what's best for everyone---for there to be a turning away from sin/wrongs to others).

What lingering consequences (besides the self-righteous judgment of others) do you see in this gal's life in the article from the OP? What can't Christ redeem through her life change?

okay, I'll answer the questions in a moment but first, what I don't understand. I have said from the beginning to now, that I see no problem with church members talking to the couple about the potential problems that will arise in such a marriage. Problems like...the pharisees in our midst, (more of the answers you asked for) judgments from unbelievers or the immature, temptations to return to the old life, etc. but you inflate that somehow into something it isn't. Everyone that answered the hypothetical question presented, answered that they would warn their children of the potential dangers (again, what I said) the only discrepancy seems to be that the church was the one offering the warning. So maybe, the discussion disagreements are more about what the role of the church is in the believers life, than about the completeness of forgiveness? Want to start a new thread? I recently did an in depth study on the role of the church in the believers life.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I don't agree that the congregation (or even parents) had the right to "warn" this young man in the article.

I did say that I'd wished I had learned earlier how to tell the difference between different fruit (my daughter is an adult now.....so she's past the stage of me "teaching" her---just as the young man in the article is past that stage).

wow, I find that mentality very very sad...we are never ever too old to learn, especially when you consider the biblical teaching about maturity in Christ. But, if that is your mentality, I fear we will always have a disagreement because our premises are so vastly different. That being said, I am so thankful I can still learn from my parents, both biological and spiritual...from my brothers and sisters, both as well...in fact, why go to church, bible study, etc. if I can no longer learn from people especially those older than me, kind of takes the purpose away from studying the word, even though we are told in scripture to do just that.

Thanks for clarifying your position, have a great day.

 

[razzelflabben]

As I said before, if you came to me to have this "honest discussion about the realities of the sinful world we live in and how it would affect our lives, ministry and relationships" in the way that the congregation did in the opening article, I would shut you down in a heartbeat.

therein lies the problem, 1. the article doesn't say how it was done, only that it turned ugly and 2. I said nothing at all about doing it a specific way, that is all you reading into things that are not there.

Yes, sin has an effect on our worlds. But you saying that it would be perfectly okay for a congregation to do this to someone who is marrying their pastor's son because "sin has consequences" is what I'm fighting against. Because it is WRONG.

be careful...I said that I see no problem with people from the congregation talking to the couple about some of the pitfalls that may come their way from such a union. That is all I said, in fact, to make sure I was painfully clear, I equated it to a common teaching in the anabaptist, that of counting the cost. If you want to read into my words what is not there, then we will have problems, because that is an inflammatory tactic.

My sin is no greater than your sin. Yet you feel it would be perfectly okay for someone to tell me that I wasn't good enough to marry my husband?

Crock.

Who said anything about "good enough"? I didn't!!!! Talking about some of the unique dangers associated with a marriage with these kinds of pasts is a long way from saying she isn't good enough to marry and just to point out your error yet again, I specifically remember and intentionally compared it to the counting the cost idea that is common in the anabapist just so you and others didn't try to twist what I said into some argument about "not being good enough" which as we see you did anyway, and you all wonder why I call you on this bullying crap

 

[mkgal1]

Who said anything about "good enough"? I didn't!!!! Talking about some of the unique dangers associated with a marriage with these kinds of pasts is a long way from saying she isn't good enough to marry.

What I'd love for you to answer is: what are these "unique dangers associated with a marriage with these kinds of pasts"?

 

[mkgal1]

the article I was directed to, said nothing at all about working with children...only that her life showed change.

The article stated that she eventually was involved in ministry---teaching young children. It's there in the OP.

 

[razzelflabben]

What I'd love for you to answer is: what are these "unique dangers associated with a marriage with these kinds of pasts"?

I already laid out a summary for you, why should we get off topic by getting into specifics? the OP is asking about the completeness of God's forgiveness not the specific pitfalls that might accompany such a marital union. Shall I go over the summary again, or can you go back a post and reread, it isn't very far, let me see, post #76 I even posted in parentheses that this was the answer to your question. Not really sure how you missed it, but at least you didn't accuse me of not answering when I did.