Questioning the Power of God's Forgiveness

[mkgal1]

What a strong message this is (I thought):

One night in a church service a young woman felt the tug of God at her heart. She responded to God's call and accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior.

The young woman had a very rough past, involving alcohol, drugs, and prostitution. But, the change in her was evident. As time went on she became a faithful member of the church.

She eventually became involved in the ministry, teaching young children.

It was not very long until this faithful young woman had caught the eye and heart of the pastor's son. The relationship grew and they began to make wedding plans.

This is when the problem began. You see, about one half of the church did not think that a woman with a past such as hers was suitable for a pastor's son.


My fiancee's past is not what is on trial here. What you are questioning is the ability of the blood of Jesus to wash away sin. Today you have put the blood of Jesus on trial. So, does it wash away sin or not?~The Pastor?s Son

 

[Inkachu]

I can't follow the link right now, but I totally agree with the OP!

 

[WolfGate]

Great parable. While often not as blatant, that type of situation plays out frequently in the church.

 

[Inkachu]

Plays out right here on CF all the time. "I would never be with someone who had ___ in their past".

 

[DZoolander]

Well, it's not so much a forgiveness thing - it's more a social thing.

Have you ever seen the movie "Best in Show" - where that one guy has a wife who apparently tramped it around a lot? Everyplace they go - there's some guy who notices her and has some offhand thing to say like "Hey, don't I know you? Turn around... Oh yeah - now that I see the back of your head I remember you! Hubba hubba!"

I mean - who really wants that?

"Sure - she's forgiven. But... Not something I wanna deal with as a spouse. As a friend, as a fellow congregant, whatever. Cool. But not a spouse" is pretty much the attitude - and I can kinda understand that.

And it goes both ways for men and women. Both can fairly/understandably apply that standard in my eyes.

 

[Autumnleaf]

People don't usually change, but sometimes they do.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Everybody has skeletons in their closet. Some are just better at denying and hiding them than others.

Pastors and pastors kids aren't perfect little saints who only deserve pristine pure women and men.

I hate that stereotype. I really, really do and it was a big part of the reason I didn't want to be a pastor's wife.

 

[DZoolander]

I'm not saying specifically for a pastor's wife or child. In that - I agree. There's nothing "more pristine" about them.

What I'm talking about is just generally - with anyone and what they're wanting to deal with.

Let's just use an extreme example to illustrate what I mean (as I think truths are illustrated by extremes. Everything else in life are just gradations of those truths)... Let's say I met a woman who I discovered had been a prostitute for a number of years - and had a huge clientele.

Removing the health stuff - let's say she was tested and found absolutely clean/etc. Would it be fair for me to say that I don't want an ex prostitute as a wife? Absolutely...and not entirely because I'm being "judgey" or "holier than thou".

I just wouldn't want the potential issues that would arise from it. I don't want to walk around wondering if my wife banged that guy, that guy, that guy, that guy, etc. I don't want random guys walking down the street to possibly look at my wife and go "Hey, I remember the good time I had with her for $x dollars", etc.

I simply wouldn't want that as an aspect of my wife. Does it mean I think she's unforgiven? Absolutely not. Do I think it means she can't be a wonderful person that I can sit next to, talk to, have a good friendship with, etc? Absolutely not.

But...there's a line. You're a friend - and no more - because I don't want to deal with potential issues arising from choices you've made in the past.

Same thing goes with other issues.

I don't know why people put such high stock and worry about whether or not someone finds them "dateable". There are tons of people in this world I would find dateable if I were single. There are tons of people I wouldn't find dateable. There are plenty of people that found me dateable. There were plenty of people I'm sure who didn't. It's no skin off my nose.

So long as they're not a jerk - and I don't think having the thought "You're not spouse-material for me" is being a jerk.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm not saying specifically for a pastor's wife or child. In that - I agree. There's nothing "more pristine" about them.

That was more in response to the actual story in the OP.

So long as they're not a jerk - and I don't think having the thought "You're not spouse-material for me" is being a jerk.

In general, no, it's not, but I think stating that you couldn't marry a former prostitute because of what other men might be thinking could be being a jerk. Was your current wife a virgin when you got married? If not, you never know if one of her boyfriends is going to pass you on the street and think the same thing.

 

[DZoolander]

Of course - but the odds of it with someone that's had a couple of partners vs. a prostitute are far lower

Let's try something else.

I had a buddy of mine that married this girl that used to be known for being promiscuous within our circle of friends. He was literally pretty much the last guy out of everyone to get her - and he married her.

When they got married - every guy in the wedding party had banged his wife - from the best man to every last one of the groomsmen - and a number of people in the audience.

Were it me - ehhh - I wouldn't have been cool with that.

I suppose if we're going with the standard of "forgiveness" being put forth/proposed here as the ideal - why not? Isn't it "earthly" or "non-forgiving" of me to have such a thought in my head? Should the fact that every one of my friends has carnal knowledge of my wife and has engaged in varying degrees of funkiness with her be considered a "problem"?

BTW - their marriage lasted about 2 years - before she went back to banging one of the groomsmen - and now has been with him for the past couple of years.

 

[razzelflabben]

wouldn't it largely depend on if she changed herself or if God changed her?

Here is what I am thinking. My husband's family were missionaries in Nigeria. We were talking to a Nigerian friend once about polygamy. He told us that in Nigeria, when a man comes to Christ but has more than one wife, eventually, the wives will come to the man and say, 'we know you have changed and we respect that change that God has made in your life. Therefore we think it best if wife 1, 4, and 3 leave.' Something like that. IOW's the change that God makes in a life is recognized my others and it seems to me that it would be honored by most people. Thus, you wouldn't have people coming up making rude comments if the change is because Christ is active in your life, verses you doing it on your own and claiming it is God.

Just a thought for what it's worth.

 

[razzelflabben]

and yet another thought...if someone has a problem with my past, is it unforgiveness, or immaturity? or both?

 

[DZoolander]

I don't think it's any of those things - because I draw a special distinction between "who we find attractive/want to marry" when compared to "who we accept fellowship with" - they're not the same thing and IMHO ought not be treated the same.

In dating/marriage - I think you're free to hold whatever standards/desires you have without judgment. If you don't want someone that has had a lot of partners, if you want a virgin, if you don't want a fat girl, if you don't want a thin girl, if you don't want a black girl, if you don't want an asian girl, if you don't want a white girl, if you don't want a blonde, if you don't want a brunette, if you don't want a redhead, whatever. Whatever floats your boat. Who cares?

If you have tastes that are so narrow that you'll never get companionship - that's your problem. Not mine. There are 6 billion people running around in this world. It isn't like some person's tastes are going to limit your ability to find an equally good if/not better spouse than they would have been. Be free little bird - pursue whatever makes you happy.

Now - fellowship is a far different thing. If you find people saying "I won't be friends with you and/or share with you because of x, y, z...issue" - then that's fair game for talking about and discussion. That's being a jerk.

But - saying "I'm upset that so and so doesn't find me hot" or "so and so doesn't want to date me because of my past" - get over yourself. There are plenty of people you wouldn't date either for whatever reasons that turn you off and on. They're free to have the same liberty.

This hangup people have on whether or not they're attractive to someone else as a potential date of spouse is just bizarre. Go find someone else that is attracted to you if that guy/gal over there isn't. No skin off your nose...and there ain't any shortage of people running around.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't think it's any of those things - because I draw a special distinction between "who we find attractive/want to marry" when compared to "who we accept fellowship with" - they're not the same thing and IMHO ought not be treated the same.

I was referring more to how people in general react, not how someone dating/marrying would react. There are a lot of factors that go into choosing someone to marry.

In dating/marriage - I think you're free to hold whatever standards/desires you have without judgment. If you don't want someone that has had a lot of partners, if you want a virgin, if you don't want a fat girl, if you don't want a thin girl, if you don't want a black girl, if you don't want an asian girl, if you don't want a white girl, if you don't want a blonde, if you don't want a brunette, if you don't want a redhead, whatever. Whatever floats your boat. Who cares?

again, I agree, my comments were meant for people generally looking at someone with a "rough" past, not for whether or not I would marry someone with "experience." That is as personal a decision as one can make.

If you have tastes that are so narrow that you'll never get companionship - that's your problem. Not mine. There are 6 billion people running around in this world. It isn't like some person's tastes are going to limit your ability to find an equally good if/not better spouse than they would have been. Be free little bird - pursue whatever makes you happy.

Now - fellowship is a far different thing. If you find people saying "I won't be friends with you and/or share with you because of x, y, z...issue" - then that's fair game for talking about and discussion. That's being a jerk.

which is what my comments were referring to, and while we are talking about it, how we view others who marry people with a past should be listed among those that can be "jerks" shouldn't they?

But - saying "I'm upset that so and so doesn't find me hot" or "so and so doesn't want to date me because of my past" - get over yourself. There are plenty of people you wouldn't date either for whatever reasons that turn you off and on. They're free to have the same liberty.

agree, that is why my comments were directed at all the other judgment calls people make. In fact, I might not "fall" in love with someone with a past because they don't fit my criteria in another area. That doesn't mean it was their past that kept us apart but some would judge unfairly in such a situation and blame it on the unwholesome past.

This hangup people have on whether or not they're attractive to someone else as a potential date of spouse is just bizarre. Go find someone else that is attracted to you if that guy/gal over there isn't. No skin off your nose...and there ain't any shortage of people running around.

agreed, but again, I was talking bout those that judge based on the past, not those that find some characteristics acceptable for marriage and some not.

 

[DZoolander]

 

[razzelflabben]

I think human tendency is to judge others, sometimes, when we try to control our judgments, we still jump to conclusions about others without ever really having the full story. A wise man withholds judgments. Isn't there something in the Bible about that? (not talking bout you, just talking about the topic of the thread)

 

[sdmsanjose]

What a strong message this is (I thought):
One night in a church service a young woman felt the tug of God at her heart. She responded to God's call and accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior.

The young woman had a very rough past, involving alcohol, drugs, and prostitution. But, the change in her was evident. As time went on she became a faithful member of the church.

She eventually became involved in the ministry, teaching young children.

It was not very long until this faithful young woman had caught the eye and heart of the pastor's son. The relationship grew and they began to make wedding plans.

This is when the problem began. You see, about one half of the church did not think that a woman with a past such as hers was suitable for a pastor's son.


My fiancée’s past is not what is on trial here. What you are questioning is the ability of the blood of Jesus to wash away sin. Today you have put the blood of Jesus on trial. So, does it wash away sin or not?~The Pastor?s Son

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What you are questioning is the ability of the blood of Jesus to wash away sin.

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[FONT=&quot]That may or may not have been the question of half of that church. However, a person NOT wanting to marry a person that had a life of drugs andprostitution…[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Because[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I don't want to deal with potential issues arising from choices you've made in the past.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Has nothing to do with questioning[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “the ability of the blood of Jesus to wash away sin.”[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]There is no doubt in the believing Christian’s mind and heart that Jesus’s blood can wash away sins. However, Jesus’s blood does not always wash away consequences.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I have a close relative, I will call her SAM, that lived the life of drugs and sex for many years. She is now a committed Christian that has had her sins washed away by the blood of Jesus. However, she still has three children by three different fathers and all those fathers have been absent from the children for many years. SAM’s conversion and Christian life that she has lived for the last 10 years is super encouraging to us all! However, if a man chooses not to marry her because of her past issues, such as having three children by three different men, then that has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus’s blood washed away her sins.[/FONT]
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[PreachersWife2004]

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[FONT=&quot]That may or may not have been the question of half of that church. However, a person NOT wanting to marry a person that had a life of drugs andprostitution…[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Because[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I don't want to deal with potential issues arising from choices you've made in the past.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Has nothing to do with questioning[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “the ability of the blood of Jesus to wash away sin.”[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]There is no doubt in the believing Christian’s mind and heart that Jesus’s blood can wash away sins. However, Jesus’s blood does not always wash away consequences.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have a close relative, I will call her SAM, that lived the life of drugs and sex for many years. She is now a committed Christian that has had her sins washed away by the blood of Jesus. However, she still has three children by three different fathers and all those fathers have been absent from the children for many years. SAM’s conversion and Christian life that she has lived for the last 10 years is super encouraging to us all! However, if a man chooses not to marry her because of her past issues, such as having three children by three different men, then that has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus’s blood washed away her sins.[/FONT]
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Thank goodness my husband didn't care that my first child was from another man. I might not have the three other beautiful children I have now.

If my husband had decided not to marry me because he couldn't have handled that - well, that's HIS loss then.

 

[ValleyGal]

The woman was good enough for the pastor's son. It's the others who were making all the judgements. Who are they to judge who the pastor's son marries? After all, even if he were to go into ministry himself, does not make him any less sinful than the woman they are judging.

 

[DZoolander]

Thank goodness my husband didn't care that my first child was from another man. I might not have the three other beautiful children I have now.

If my husband had decided not to marry me because he couldn't have handled that - well, that's HIS loss then.

I think a lot of it has to do with your place in life at the time.

Like, if I'd met a woman when I was 21 who was carrying around a kid, I'd have definitely blown her off. If she'd told me it was "my loss" at that point - I'd have laughed to myself as I was blowing her off. "Whatever gets you through the night" - and then I'd have gone out and found someone equally nice or nicer, without that baggage, and never have thought about "my loss" again.

...never...in my whole life...would she have ever crossed my mind again. So - quite the loss there. lol

At 44, say I was single, and I met a woman in my dateable age range who was single/never married and without a child - I'd actually kinda wonder what her malfunction was that she'd never found someone acceptable to marry. I'd actually kinda expect that I was going to be in the pool with women that had children, had been in previous marriages, etc.

...and yes - weird ideas about "not wanting to accept the child of another man" would then become potentially my loss.

What Stan was talking about, though, I think is when a woman has a situation where she has 5 kids from 5 different dads. Kinda makes you wonder what was going on there, ya know? Even with my embracing of the fact that I'd be meeting women with children - if she was like "Here's my child from Joe, and this is my child from Steve, and this is my child from Frank, and this is my child from Jorge" - it would make me think twice about being with her.