Questioning of Islam

[elwill]

Could you show me from the Bible where it says you will go to hell if you didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus?

really , and honestly i never see that in the bible , as i never see in the bible that jesus (pbuh) is God also . (so you should think about it by yourself)
i just mean it as from view of christians not bible .

from point of christianity view , what is the non_christians fate in hereafter ?

 

[I_are_sceptical]

So reading and using some common sense on top of it helped a lot. I believed it was the word of Allah but more I prayed and read the Bible that belief weakened and vanished.

I know this is not a "specific question, but could you please go into more detail?

What, exactly, did "common sense" tell you that overshadowed to idea that the Qur'an was God's Word?

What was the first belief you had that weakened?

I considered why I was always taught to believe that previous scriptures were corrupted but this was not.

That's a good point. I would be interested in how you, as a Muslim, determined that the Bible was not corrupted but perhaps it would take too long for you to describe fully.

Be strong in your faith, as I was

Which Faith were you strong in? Not Islam, because you abandoned it. Is anyone trying to get you leave Christianity in general, or the Orthodox Church for a different denomination?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster
Could you show me from the Bible where it says you will go to hell if you didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus?
really , and honestly i never see that in the bible , as i never see in the bible that jesus (pbuh) is God also . (so you should think about it by yourself)
i just mean it as from view of christians not bible .

from point of christianity view , what is the non_christians fate in hereafter ?

First of all, I didn’t ask you if you could see in the Bible that Christ is God. Don’t make points that don’t interest me, please… Christ boldly makes the claim of divinity and I am sincerely tired of going over it. So, back to the original question, you don’t see in the Bible what happens to the non-believers in the afterlife? Or is it non-Christians?
From early Christianity’s point of view; we know that non-Christians are also subject to God’s judgment. Everyone that has lived, that is living and that will live, is subject to this judgment. God presents Himself to every nation in different ways in His creation. St. Paul says;
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:20 KJVR)

It would be foolish for us to think that those who never got to know Christ because they were born, they lived and died in the new world, or in a different continent before Christ’s Incarnation, as eternally doomed. No, God in His perfect judgment and mercy is capable of saving souls and He doesn’t require religions, doctrines and dogmas to enable His sovereign power. It could be possible for one to be a Christian but have no faith, nothing to do with Christ, and it could be possible to be a muslim, unaware of Christ but extremely loving to other people, God will judge the heart. So, again, no I can’t say that anyone is doomed to eternal damnation, including muslims, baha’I, etc.

[FONT=&quot]I_are_sceptical][/FONT][/COLOR]
Originally Posted by Bushmaster http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=46167087#post46167087
So reading and using some common sense on top of it helped a lot. I believed it was the word of Allah but more I prayed and read the Bible that belief weakened and vanished.
I know this is not a "specific question, but could you please go into more detail?

What, exactly, did "common sense" tell you that overshadowed to idea that the Qur'an was God's Word?

What was the first belief you had that weakened?

Ok, first thing that made me interested and surprised was the opposite claims of Christianity. Islam said, Christ didn’t die, Christianity said the opposite. Islam said previous Scriptures are corrupt. Christianity said the opposite. I realized the similarity of Scriptures but also seen the important departures, like I mentioned, about Christ, Isaac-Ishmael, etc, while same prophets were honored similarly in both. Now, I have to stress the importance of this, while I had faith in Allah and believed that Muhammad was his messenger, and Quran was a revealed book, I was not a huge fan of the Islam religion. Radicalism that is existent in this religion also played a role that I cannot deny. Common sense issue I talked about was mainly related to the Scriptures and alleged corruption. The allegations do not actually appear in history until Muslims come into contact with Christians in large numbers, mostly Holy Land area. In my critical thinking, a God that is not able to preserve His word for so long and somehow He vows again in the case of Quran and He preserves that one, while the corrupt mankind is still corrupt mankind, didn’t make any sense. This reason, and the difference of Scriptures related to Christ weakened my belief in the accounts of Quran which posed great danger, because that book claimed to be existent in Paradise before, as it was “collected” by arabs. If arabs were able to perfectly reproduce it, why were Christians so dishonest and shady to tamper theirs? Christian martyrs, and the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran were the last nails of Quran’s coffin to me. Quran was out of the picture.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]That's a good point. I would be interested in how you, as a Muslim, determined that the Bible was not corrupted but perhaps it would take too long for you to describe fully.

Mainly, I couldn’t see a reason why they would have done so. There was nothing to gain, but too much to lose knowing they were tampering with God’s message, as God is not mocked. Understanding how bible was collected was crucial because Muslims believe prophets with major religions have a book that dropped from Paradise just like Muhammad. So in that mentality, Moses, David, and Jesus had revelations that were given unto them. Bible doesn’t claim this at all, except the Ten Commandments. Seeing that Scriptures were copied in great numbers in such a short period and were circulated within early Church reduced the possibility of a major flaw in teachings, and the piety of early clergy and their extensive usage of Scriptures and preservation, and modern archaeological findings helped me determine that Scriptures were not corrupted and/or tampered with. During conversations, muslims claimed this and provided evidence of interpolation and none were related to the Orthodox Christianity, but some heretical sect justifying their beliefs. Modern scholars assertions towards non-existent verses, and finding early fathers using the same verses extensively strengthened my belief in this matter.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Which Faith were you strong in? Not Islam, because you abandoned it. Is anyone trying to get you leave Christianity in general, or the Orthodox Church for a different denomination?

I did mean to say this from spirituality perspective. I had doubts of Islam but I didn’t become an atheist. I was faithful to a faith that had failed in the face of claims of Christianity. Upon that, I became very analytical and I asked Christianity my questions, and a new faith flourished, as it happened to millions that lived before me. Is anyone trying to get me to leave my faith right now? Not that I know of. I followed a similar path to Orthodox Church also, I was a Protestant. There was only one person I know that got extremely upset that I became Orthodox, but he is very anti-catholic in general, and he thinks I became a Catholic. While we share a common apostolic heritage, we have our differences.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Could you show me from the Bible where it says you will go to hell if you didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus?

Nope. But you do have to believe in both YHWH and His Christ Jesus.

Ever read the Covenantle parable in Luke 16? which I recommed all Christians study deeply.

http://foru.ms/t4437955-lazarus-and-the-rich-man.html


Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life] and Ye [OC Law/Death] a great chasm/casma <5490> hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Bushmaster, thank you for your comments. They are very informative.

the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran.

Is there any chance you could elaborate on this? Did you decide the Qur'an was mechanical revelation before you began studying Christianity, or after? If after, did you at some point in your life feel the Qur'an really was divine inspiration?

 

[randomman]

Persecuted in society in general, not governmentally. How many hate crimes do you think we had before 9/11 against muslims... compared to now? Denial of services... etc. Exclusion is persecution in my book as well.

actually i am trying to find some honest academic studies on copts ... i hear from egyptian muslims that copts are the most privileged minority in middle east. they own a good portion of egypt's entrepreneurship and enjoy civil and religious right like everyone else.... in fact, churches open 24 hours whereas mosques are forced close after the last prayers .... muslims are not allowed to grow beards (beard = terrorism for the egyptian govt) .... the only sources of information on persecution come from coptic websites and organizations which give a biased opinion ... they exploit the single cases of persecution (like the single cases of muslim's persecution after 9/11) ... simply propaganda .... actually, if you search the arab news websites, you can find articles about converts to islam persecuted by their coptic families ... you will find that the coptic church in egypt has been producing movies and cartoons like the danish ones insulting our prophet (ppbuh) and islam ... this defintely outrages muslims .. and shows bigotry of the coptic church as they are not happy about the diminishing numbers of their followers by conversion to islam

just amazing how powerful propaganda can be at flipping reality upside down

 

[Meshavrischika]

actually i am trying to find some honest academic studies on copts ... i hear from egyptian muslims that copts are the most privileged minority in middle east. they own a good portion of egypt's entrepreneurship and enjoy civil and religious right like everyone else.... in fact, churches open 24 hours whereas mosques are forced close after the last prayers .... muslims are not allowed to grow beards (beard = terrorism for the egyptian govt) .... the only sources of information on persecution come from coptic websites and organizations which give a biased opinion ... they exploit the single cases of persecution (like the single cases of muslim's persecution after 9/11) ... simply propaganda .... actually, if you search the arab news websites, you can find articles about converts to islam persecuted by their coptic families ... you will find that the coptic church in egypt has been producing movies and cartoons like the danish ones insulting our prophet (ppbuh) and islam ... this defintely outrages muslims .. and shows bigotry of the coptic church as they are not happy about the diminishing numbers of their followers by conversion to islam

just amazing how powerful propaganda can be at flipping reality upside down

eh. I think the media here is very "propoganda" oriented so I scarcely believe much of what they say is truth... but one sided and meant to be sensational. (so I know how you feel about it flipping things upside down - so many people get all freaked out at the news here)

 

[elwill]

First of all, I didn’t ask you if you could see in the Bible that Christ is God. Don’t make points that don’t interest me, please…

dont interset you ?!!!!
it's basic beliefs in christianity , which i wanna to know why you revert to it

you don’t see in the Bible what happens to the non-believers in the afterlife? Or is it non-Christians?

it depends on whom believers refers to ?
believers in the bible wasn't whom divine jesus , that's for sure .
just give me the criterias of believers in the bible to know if muslims among believers in the bible or not .

and it could be possible to be a muslim, unaware of Christ but extremely loving to other people, God will judge the heart. So, again, no I can’t say that anyone is doomed to eternal damnation, including muslims, baha’I, etc.

so muslims also in the safe side from prespective of christianity ?

Ok, first thing that made me interested and surprised was the opposite claims of Christianity. Islam said, Christ didn’t die, Christianity said the opposite. Islam said previous Scriptures are corrupt. Christianity said the opposite. I realized the similarity of Scriptures but also seen the important departures, like I mentioned, about Christ, Isaac-Ishmael, etc, while same prophets were honored similarly in both. Now, I have to stress the importance of this, while I had faith in Allah and believed that Muhammad was his messenger, and Quran was a revealed book, I was not a huge fan of the Islam religion. Radicalism that is existent in this religion also played a role that I cannot deny. Common sense issue I talked about was mainly related to the Scriptures and alleged corruption. The allegations do not actually appear in history until Muslims come into contact with Christians in large numbers, mostly Holy Land area. In my critical thinking, a God that is not able to preserve His word for so long and somehow He vows again in the case of Quran and He preserves that one, while the corrupt mankind is still corrupt mankind, didn’t make any sense. This reason, and the difference of Scriptures related to Christ weakened my belief in the accounts of Quran which posed great danger, because that book claimed to be existent in Paradise before, as it was “collected” by arabs. If arabs were able to perfectly reproduce it, why were Christians so dishonest and shady to tamper theirs? Christian martyrs, and the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran were the last nails of Quran’s coffin to me. Quran was out of the picture.

is this your reasons to convert ? muslims said that quran reserved and bible corrupts , but you wasn't comfortable to the idea of bible corrupting , so you refused islam and accepted christianity?

and modern archaeological findings helped me determine that Scriptures were not corrupted and/or tampered with.

muslims always believed that bible is corrupted , but christians scholar and church proofed it ,
my inforamtions about bible alteration are from christians scholars writings

I had doubts of Islam but I didn’t become an atheist. I was faithful to a faith that had failed in the face of claims of Christianity.

yes , christinity faith is very unity and strong !
are you saw ahmed deedat dabates with christian's fathers

Upon that, I became very analytical and I asked Christianity my questions, and a new faith flourished, as it happened to millions that lived before me.

what is the type of questions you asked , give me examples ?

 

[Philothei]

actually i am trying to find some honest academic studies on copts ... i hear from egyptian muslims that copts are the most privileged minority in middle east. they own a good portion of egypt's entrepreneurship and enjoy civil and religious right like everyone else.... in fact, churches open 24 hours whereas mosques are forced close after the last prayers .... muslims are not allowed to grow beards (beard = terrorism for the egyptian govt) .... the only sources of information on persecution come from coptic websites and organizations which give a biased opinion ... they exploit the single cases of persecution (like the single cases of muslim's persecution after 9/11) ... simply propaganda .... actually, if you search the arab news websites, you can find articles about converts to islam persecuted by their coptic families ... you will find that the coptic church in egypt has been producing movies and cartoons like the danish ones insulting our prophet (ppbuh) and islam ... this defintely outrages muslims .. and shows bigotry of the coptic church as they are not happy about the diminishing numbers of their followers by conversion to islam

just amazing how powerful propaganda can be at flipping reality upside down

Talk for yourself ... I know personally copts in this country who were pursecuted for fact from the muslims in Egypt... what are you talking about.. the killings that are happening or the persucutions... The christian persecution in Egypt is actual there are way too many incedents that prove that..... What converts to Islam?? with gun point?? give me a break... You expect us to believe that?? No one is making fun of your prophet stop lying...

 

[randomman]

Talk for yourself ... I know personally copts in this country who were pursecuted for fact from the muslims in Egypt... what are you talking about.. the killings that are happening or the persucutions... The christian persecution in Egypt is actual there are way too many incedents that prove that..... What converts to Islam?? with gun point?? give me a break... You expect us to believe that?? No one is making fun of your prophet stop lying...

nothing that we are not aware of ... these are all coptic allegations ... propaganda ... few cases generalized ... etc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKoKBNCxoM

this man refutes and exposes the lies of copts .... he is a great muslim scholar .... arabic language

and there are more on youtube


=============

a protest (not a killing spree) at Al-Azhar
http://www.alarabnews.com/alshaab/2005/21-10-2005/azhar.htm
the coptic church just released a play mocking islam and the prophet ppbuh, and distributed it on CDs to muslims as the holy month of ramadan was about to begin

================

a new movement in egypt by moderate and patriotic copts, calling for resign of current hierarchy in the egyptian coptic church. this movement condemns the radical collaboration between the church and copts in the west working together to destroy the reputation of egypt and its muslims, in order to christianize (free) egypt (what you see in iraq and afghanistan now)

http://www.almesryoon.com/ShowDetails.asp?NewID=43734&Page=1

====================

a wife of a coptic priest, along with other coptic women, are held captive by copts after converting to Islam. she ran away but the egyptian police at the request of her husband and the church arrested her and was forced to convert back to christianity

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2004/12/18/8805.html

===========================

bottom line, the western media derive its news from anti-muslim copts sources .....

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I_are_sceptical]Bushmaster, thank you for your comments. They are very informative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmaster
the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran.
Is there any chance you could elaborate on this? Did you decide the Qur'an was mechanical revelation before you began studying Christianity, or after? If after, did you at some point in your life feel the Qur'an really was divine inspiration?

I_are_sceptical, you are welcome and thanks for waiting on me patiently, I have a thread running every single forum around here, plus work&#8230;
Before I talk about this question, did I miss anything you asked earlier so far?
I did realize Quran was a mechanical revelation -by its own claims and testimony of early Muslims that observed Muhammad- after I learnt about Christian Scriptures. Before I knew about Christian Scriptures, I didn&#8217;t know much about revelation by inspiration and I did believe that Quran was revealed (vahiy) by the divine. Claim was that Quran already existed and was revealed to Muhammad verbatim at a later time. And he transmitted this message to the scribes and so on, so forth. I now know that Quran was not an inspiration. In the gospels, we see that God used these holy men, Apostles of Christ to write a revelation but in this process their characteristics, style and spirit were not affected, God spoke the truth of Scriptures through these men and in their style, tongue. There are so many theories right now about the origins of Quran but due to my prior beliefs, I tend to believe there is still supernatural work involved in it but I don&#8217;t believe it is from God of Christian Scriptures.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Talk for yourself ... I know personally copts in this country who were pursecuted for fact from the muslims in Egypt... what are you talking about.. the killings that are happening or the persucutions... The christian persecution in Egypt is actual there are way too many incedents that prove that..... What converts to Islam?? with gun point?? give me a break... You expect us to believe that?? No one is making fun of your prophet stop lying...

I prefer to just quote Matthew 24:9 in respect to that.

Matt 24:9 then they shall be delivering ye up into tribulation, and they shall be killing/apoktenousin <615> (5692) ye, and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations thru/because-of the Name of Me;

 

[Ave Maria]

Why do Muslims view every questioning of Islam as an attack upon them? Why is every critical analysis of their religion, its tenets, and its source greeted with a barrage of defensive comments and insults? This situation can be frustrating to those of us accustomed to linear logic and open, critical thought. At the heart of the problem lies the basic educational difference between Muslims and non-Muslims.

From the beginning, Islamic education starts formulating a conceptualization, which logically connects automatic Islamic thoughts and beliefs. This education system fails to see the larger picture and jumps from one core belief to another, providing students with a limited, hostile, and fallacious cognitive map which remains with them for life.

This rigid Islamic cognitive schema has a profound impact on Muslims' thought paradigms, emotional responses, and behavioral patterns because it provides them with a common narrative history, common cognitive patterns, common social scripts, and common kinds of aspirations, attitudes, and cultural values.

The whole thought system lacks critical thinking, rational analysis, and personal responsibility, leaving Muslims content just to stay the same while blaming everyone but themselves for their own thinking errors.

When confronted with their own failings and shortcomings, Muslims hide behind alibi and denial, using thought clichés such as “everything that happens is Allah’s will” and "non-believers will burn in Islamic hell fire". Such automatic expressions influence their subsequent emotional and behavioral responses in every situation. Furthermore, these automatic responses, based on their preconceived Islamic thought paradigm, often misconstrue even the most neutral of situations so as to fit them into their closed model of thinking, making those automatic thoughts biased and filled with thinking errors.

Since Islam is a closed system of dogma that forbids Muslims from testing either its validity or utility, and that requires them to maintain the equilibrium at any cost, Muslims' thinking errors completely overwhelm and handicap them with dysfunctional automatic thoughts that coexist with other thinking errors.

Some of these educationally inculcated thinking errors include:

Polarized all or nothing thinking (believers and non-believers, daru-ul-Islam, dar-ul-harb)

Thinking catastrophically (all infidels, munafiq will go to hell)

Discounting the positive, accentuating the negative (all kafeers are out to get Muslims)

Reasoning emotionally (emotional justification for bombing, beheading, terrorism, and rape)

Labeling (designating all non-believers as kafeers)

Minimizing (blaming the victim, invoking denial, trying to alibi)

Mind-reading (Muslims believe they know what non-Muslims are thinking)

Filtering mental concepts (failing to see things holistically)

Over-generalization of everything (making sweeping negative conclusions such as Jews are pigs and Christians are cattle)

Personalization of everything (Muslims believe kafeers are behaving negatively because of Islam)

Myopic tunnel vision for life (seeing things only in the Islamic way)

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/f14

As for your first question, I have seen most Muslims be more than willing to kindly answer questions concerning their religion.

 

[Avatar]

As for your first question, I have seen most Muslims be more than willing to kindly answer questions concerning their religion.

Excellent. Perhaps you can tell me a bit about the five pillars and what they mean to you personally. Then please tell me what is Prophet Muhammad&#8217;s basic message and how you have incorporated it into your life.

 

[Futuwwa]

Excellent. Perhaps you can tell me a bit about the five pillars and what they mean to you personally. Then please tell me what is Prophet Muhammad’s basic message and how you have incorporated it into your life.

Give her a break, will you? Do you think religious indecisiveness is fun?

 

[Philothei]

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2007/s07060125.htm

it depends where you get your information... I have personal wittnessed the persecution of the copts.... Eyestness do not lie... Sorry to the OP for the deraliment of this thread.

There continued to be religious discrimination and sectarian tension in society during the period covered by this report. On May 11, 2007, a group of Muslim citizens attacked Christians in the village of Bamha. In the ensuing violence, Muslims reportedly set fire to or looted 27 shops and homes of Christians and injured 12 Christians, 1 seriously. The police responded quickly to contain the incident and arrested approximately 60 people. On September 16, 2006 in Awlad Azaz village, Sohag governorate, some minor injuries occurred when Muslim and Christian villagers clashed over land use near the Monastery of Saint Shenouda. An SSIS official reportedly brokered a deal that resulted in the land being equally divided between Christians and Muslims.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90209.htm


Do not tell me the USA govn't is also "fantasizing" things..... TAke your propaganda somewhere else....

 

[Futuwwa]

And, as your quote shows, the Egyptian police intervened and put an end to it. Ergo, the Copts are not persecuted by the authorities, but subject to private attacks by hateful individuals. If that is persecution, then US and Greece persecute Muslims too.

 

[Avatar]

Give her a break, will you? Do you think religious indecisiveness is fun?

I'm sure it isn't. But as my questions were extraordinarily basic she should have no difficulty answering if she has truly done any study of Islam. Don't you agree?

 

[Philothei]

The tensions have not eased and there is still christian (as the beginning of the paragraph states) persecution. And I have better put you in ignore... There is no reported percecution for Greece... Where in the States you see persecution of the muslims?? I think you are fantasizing things Futuwa ....no suprise to me anyways...

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

*sigh*

Hearing Christians talk about religious indoctrination and the ideological cage people live in is really ironic.

Sure, the reformation has helped our culture along to a more polyphonic/dialogic discourse, and a similar event is certainly missing in Islamic culture, yet if you want to see reality-filters, mind-reading and black and white thinking, try the sub-forum two steps down, titled: "Creation and Evolution".