Questioning of Islam

[ChildishFears]

Espionage: the act or practice of spying.

So Islam is some super secret organization? and an apostate is a spy?

If your religion is so good and pure, the information that these 'spies' would be of no threat.

They're apostates in the first place, meaning not all things good is what they have found (at least to them). Then you condemn them with death?

Fine, with that logic, the real threat is the literal idea of your ALLAH itself. That idea must be put to death because that is an actual threat to human lives.

Yes, I know human lives amount to little with that type of Allah in mind, but don't expect necks bared voluntarily, they can fight back and others will fight for them. That ALLAH is an EVIL, brutal ideal and has no place in any progressive human society.

Send all the rebuttles you want, it will always be considered a blatantly EVIL concept if considered literally from a progressive world and on.

The Allah that LITERALLY condemns a human being to death for just apostacy is EVIL! plain and simple.

Anyone that agrees with murdering someone that simply changes their religion and go about their business is sick and hypocritical. Some just have that gang-mentality: once you leave, you can not get out without worrying about whether or not you're going to be murdered.

 

[iano]

sorry guys I meant treason, not espionage.

Treason? Sorry, but I find it very pathetic to place the severity of death on someone simply because they chose to leave. Even if they speak out against islam, death is never a good enough answer. Your monstrous Allah gave you the ability to speak aswell, use that ability, not physical harm unless for self defence.

No, it is not self defence to kill an apostate unless they are doing physical harm to you.

Over all that ideal is like a corporation that would KILL an unsatisfied employee for handing in their resignation.

PATHETIC!

There is no complexity to the issue, it IS barbaric and EVIL a notion.

I have several 'apostate' friends and I asked them about this issue today, and lo and behold that is one of the MAJOR reasons that they left Islam.

 

[ChildishFears]

ll

 

[Adeeb]

Treason? Sorry, but I find it very pathetic to place the severity of death on someone simply because they chose to leave. Even if they speak out against islam, death is never a good enough answer. Your monstrous Allah gave you the ability to speak aswell, use that ability, not physical harm unless for self defence.

No, it is not self defence to kill an apostate unless they are doing physical harm to you.

Over all that ideal is like a corporation that would KILL an unsatisfied employee for handing in their resignation.

PATHETIC!

There is no complexity to the issue, it IS barbaric and EVIL a notion.

I have several 'apostate' friends and I asked them about this issue today, and lo and behold that is one of the MAJOR reasons that they left Islam.

quite frankly, what you think or feel means absolutely nothing since it is based on your own understanding which is prone to change and does not come from any set principles just whatever feels right at the time.

The apostate law is applied in an Islamic state where Islam is the main principle, not freedom. Any one who lives there is agreeing to these conditions. Not everybody has the same views of democracy as you do, so don't try to force it down to everyone as the standard.

 

[iano]

quite frankly, what you think or feel means absolutely nothing since it is based on your own understanding which is prone to change and does not come from any set principles just whatever feels right at the time.

The apostate law is applied in an Islamic state where Islam is the main principle, not freedom. Any one who lives there is agreeing to these conditions. Not everybody has the same views of democracy as you do, so don't try to force it down to everyone as the standard.

No, this ideal, perhaps a full nation's ideal is twisted, sick and depraved (except those that don't hold the killing apostate ideal).

It is not a 'law of the land' in which you speak, it is a law inlisted in your core belief. Though it doesn't go on as much outside of your country(killing muslim apostates) the view that they 'should' be killed is still universally sick and depraved a notion. One that holds such an ideal is SICK AND DEPRAVED.

I'm not talking about the issue based on how you want to worship or what not, debating what's canon or the way to live a life etc etc. I'm pointing out the obvious and pathetically Evil notion of barbaric UNDUE murder. If you believe full heartedly that your God commands such a thing, you believe in a Demon God.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

how is Bahaism involved here?

It's not. My post was in defense of Islam which, as far as my studies have shown, is a genuine Revelation from God.

 

[Adeeb]

No, this ideal, perhaps a full nation's ideal is twisted, sick and depraved (except those that don't hold the killing apostate ideal).

It is not a 'law of the land' in which you speak, it is a law inlisted in your core belief. Though it doesn't go on as much outside of your country(killing muslim apostates) the view that they 'should' be killed is still universally sick and depraved a notion. One that holds such an ideal is SICK AND DEPRAVED.

I'm not talking about the issue based on how you want to worship or what not, debating what's canon or the way to live a life etc etc. I'm pointing out the obvious and pathetically Evil notion of barbaric UNDUE murder. If you believe full heartedly that your God commands such a thing, you believe in a Demon God.

and who decides what is right or wrong?

 

[français]

Really?

For example, Muhammad is reported to have said “Kill him who changes his religion” in hadith collections of both Bukhari and Abu Dawud. There is also a consensus by all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (i.e., Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i), as well as Shi’ite jurists, that apostates from Islam must be put to death. Averroes (d. 1198), the renowned philosopher and scholar of the natural sciences, who was also an important Maliki jurist, provided this typical Muslim legal opinion on the punishment for apostasy (vol. 2, p. 552):

An apostate…is to be executed by agreement in the case of a man, because of the words of the Prophet, “Slay those who change their din [religion]”…Asking the apostate to repent was stipulated as a condition…prior to his execution

The contemporary (i.e., 1991) Al-Azhar (Cairo) Islamic Research Academy-endorsed Shafi’i manual of Islamic Law, ‘Umdat al-Salik (pp. 595-96) states:

Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst…When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. In such a case, it is obligatory…to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=F533010C-648B-4BD6-AA7B-FF5E823FAFCA

Lol, frontpagemag, are you serious? Um... How about showing me a Muslim site and not this neo conservative anti Islam site?

Also, you obviously know NOTHING about uloom al-hadeeth.(sciences of the hadiths.) Do not just read a Hadith and take it at face value.. Many of them are pertaining to a certain event, but the average layperson would not see that.. Which is why scholars devote their lives to studying Islamic texts and learning about the meaning.

Also, not all Hadiths are authentic. Many are da'eef, etc.

<staff edit>

What do we eat? That lady is covering the rest of the sign.

Well, with all due respect then, I don't see why you would be here...

why not?

Yes, I have seen those, do you think they are teaching Christianity 101 accurately and without bias?

JUST as you people are not teaching accurate Islam.

Make sure you check your history out, was it political but branded religious, or vice versa, given the isolated location of events proves there is no general element in the atrocities. Now compare that to a Danish cartoon crisis.

so a few Muslims take the streets.. And?

There are a billion Muslims.. Did you see a billion Muslims on the streets protesting? How about 100 million?

Oh no?

Hmm, maybe two million?

Or, maybe less then a million!
1/1000.... Not even 1%.

What are you participating in over at OBOB? AS an atheist, what is your motivation to participate in threads about Catholicism, because you simply can not debate against it over at OBOB, it is against their rules, so do you give positive feedback?

Sometimes, and other times I ask about certain questions.. Like recently I asked for a better elaboration on the RCC view of smoking, etc.

It really is none of your business for why I am at OBOB. I am there because I like to talk about religion.. Sometimes in a critical way, other times not.

Why, is that a problem that I am there?

 

[iano]

and who decides what is right or wrong?

Basic Rationale. Complex issues may not be so easy but UNDUE murder is simple, blatantly brutal, and WRONG.

Thus, the acceptance and propagation of such an idea is sick and depraved.

I could have called those harbouring the horrid view as anamalistic and having no hope, but I rather view such with a glimmer of prosperous humanity but plagued with a collective mental illness.

 

[Secundulus]

Lol, frontpagemag, are you serious? Um... How about showing me a Muslim site and not this neo conservative anti Islam site?

Criticise the Islamic sources that are provided in the article. This should be pretty easy for an Islamic scholar such as yourself.

 

[français]

Criticise the Islamic sources that are provided in the article. This should be pretty easy for an Islamic scholar such as yourself.

I am not a scholar. But perhaps you should e-mail a scholar and ask their view.

 

[Adeeb]

Basic Rationale. Complex issues may not be so easy but UNDUE murder is simple, blatantly brutal, and WRONG.

Thus, the acceptance and propagation of such an idea is sick and depraved.

I could have called those harbouring the horrid view as anamalistic and having no hope, but I rather view such with a glimmer of prosperous humanity but plagued with a collective mental illness.

basic rationale, huh. Rewind 100 years and this "basic rationale" produced almost totally different results. Fast forward 100 years and "basic rationale" will probably once again flip flop.

I asked you who decides what is right or wrong, and you answered that basic rationale decides, but that varies from person to person. You may think that your view is representative of the majority but it may not be. Things may seem so clear to you that you may wonder how anyone could disagree with what you think. Basically you are saying right or wrong is decided on your basic rationale. If you go around the world you will find many views on murder. When a country drops a bomb on 500 people to kill 10 people, I can call that murder while others will say it is a war strategy.

Things are not so clear cut bro. I totally understand that you think it is brutal, extreme, and harsh, but I do not go by what anyone thinks except for Allah and his messenger.

 

[Secundulus]

I am not a scholar. But perhaps you should e-mail a scholar and ask their view.

So then you really had no reason at all to criticise the article other than it offended your feelings.

And why do I need to go elsewhere for confirmation when Muslims here are openly defending the killing of apostates?

 

[français]

Criticise the Islamic sources that are provided in the article. This should be pretty easy for an Islamic scholar such as yourself.

So then you really had no reason at all to criticise the article other than it offrnded your feelings.

And why do I need to go elsewhere for confirmation when Muslims here are openly defending the killing of apostates?

And others(like elwill and Islam_Mulia) have said that it is wrong to simply kill someone who leaves Islam, and that more has to be to it.

 

[iano]

basic rationale, huh. Rewind 100 years and this "basic rationale" produced almost totally different results. Fast forward 100 years and "basic rationale" will probably once again flip flop.

Yes, 100 years later we should know better, especially with flourishing means of communication. Such that 'thou shall not murder' should be pretty basic rationale. Other wise, it is metal illness.

I asked you who decides what is right or wrong, and you answered that basic rationale decides, but that varies from person to person. You may think that your view is representative of the majority but it may not be. Things may seem so clear to you that you may wonder how anyone could disagree with what you think. Basically you are saying right or wrong is decided on your basic rationale. If you go around the world you will find many views on murder. When a country drops a bomb on 500 people to kill 10 people, I can call that murder while others will say it is a war strategy.

You're pretty much right on that part(bomb dropping), it is murder unless by means of self defence. If it is undue, and over the top as you've illustrated in your tone, it is undue murder.

A psychopath may have a different view as well, and it's a usually a mental illness.

Things are not so clear cut bro. I totally understand that you think it is brutal, extreme, and harsh, but I do not go by what anyone thinks except for Allah and his messenger.

You're Allah has also created you, given you a mind and hopefully some empathy and common sense. You may have conditioned yourself to follow a book, but that human rationale that Allah gave you himself should have at least given you the ability to spot what is blatantly wrong.

Hypothetically, take into consideration a person that lived his life as a christian. This Christian society also upholds the notion of killing apostates referenced from some scripture. Now this man finds disagreement with christianity and chose to convert into Islam full heartedly and in place, is now marked for death.


I'm not gonna ask you if it is wrong, because it is wrong. The notion and ideal of killing an apostate IS wrong unless it is due to self defence.

 

[Secundulus]

And others(like elwill and Islam_Mulia) have said that it is wrong to simply kill someone who leaves Islam, and that more has to be to it.

So we have Muslims that disagree with what Muhammed said. Maybe to resolve this we can go ask Muhammed himself.

"Muhammed, distinguished Prophet of God, what should we do with a Muslim who apostates from Islam?"

Muhammed's answer - "'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari, Book 84:
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html

According to Muslim scholars, al-Bukhari is reliable.

 

[Adeeb]

Yes, 100 years later we should know better, especially with flourishing means of communication. Such that 'thou shall not murder' should be pretty basic rationale. Other wise, it is metal illness.



You're pretty much right on that part(bomb dropping), it is murder unless by means of self defence. If it is undue, and over the top as you've illustrated in your tone, it is undue murder.

A psychopath may have a different view as well, and it's a usually a mental illness.



You're Allah has also created you, given you a mind and hopefully some empathy and common sense. You may have conditioned yourself to follow a book, but that human rationale that Allah gave you himself should have at least given you the ability to spot what is blatantly wrong.

Hypothetically, take into consideration a person that lived his life as a christian. This Christian society also upholds the notion of killing apostates referenced from some scripture. Now this man finds disagreement with christianity and chose to convert into Islam full heartedly and in place, is now marked for death.


I'm not gonna ask you if it is wrong, because it is wrong. The notion and ideal of killing an apostate IS wrong unless it is due to self defence.

you have yet to prove why it is wrong other than "its wrong, because it feels wrong". You have been socialized to think this is wrong. If you were to grow up in the middle of the jungle you would not have the same basic rationale. You would probably think it is okay kill someone for their food.

 

[Adeeb]

So we have Muslims that disagree with what Muhammed said. Maybe to resolve this we can go ask Muhammed himself.

"Muhammed, distinguished Prophet of God, what should we do with a Muslim who apostates from Islam?"

Muhammed's answer - "'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari, Book 84:
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html

According to Muslim scholars, al-Bukhari is reliable.

Yes Bukhari is authentic but you can't just take a hadith at face value and say this is the ruling. There are principles that are used to derive the meaning of the hadtih.

 

[iano]

you have yet to prove why it is wrong other than "its wrong, because it feels wrong". You have been socialized to think this is wrong. If you were to grow up in the middle of the jungle you would not have the same basic rationale. You would probably think it is okay kill someone for their food.

It is wrong because the end doesn't justify the means.

They turned their cheek on Islam, you may aswell turn your cheek on them, but to kill them is evil. It also stinks of a big bully mentality as well.

That jungle anecdote is for jungle dwelling and living as an animal.

Are you saying that muslims are similar to the notion of crazy jungle savages or more so, jungle animals like ravenous monkeys? I hope not, I view them as human beings with the similar ability to understand the basic notion that UNDUE muder is wrong.

 

[Secundulus]

Yes Bukhari is authentic but you can't just take a hadith at face value and say this is the ruling. There are principles that are used to derive the meaning of the hadtih.

Then please exposit this verse for me.