Lots of different propositions have come out the discussion of sin in the history of God's people. Not all of them "fly" all that well for my mind either.
However, the bottom line of the doctrine of sin is what all who claim to be orthodox have in common, despite differences over theories about its outcome.
.
Some of it gets interesting when it comes to considering some of the realities that Original sin may have in regards to the afterlife.
If the OT Saints like Noah and Enoch could be saved without ever HEARING the name of Jesus…and with men simply seeking the face of the Lord the best they knew how, then why is it that we have totally said otherwise today with issues of salvation and original sin? For indeed, no one can be saved apart from the work/power of the LORD Jesus Christ.
What has never been discussed by Scripture is that those never knowing audibly of His name are unable to be saved/encounter HIM....and for those saying people never knowing of Christ are doomed to live without Him, I must ask "why the assumptions?" Taking it further, why is it that everyone on all sides of this argument always assumes that people can only make their decision for or against Christ before they die?
Does the Bible even say that?
Most tend to start with this verse in
Hebrews 9:27/Hebrews 9:26-28..but that says that one faces judgement after death. Nowhere is the verse even qualifed to saying all the dynamics of what happens at the judgement/differing situations taken into account of what happened during the time of living. I guess for those people who believe in soul sleep it makes sense that no one could choose Christ after death …but for anyone who believes that our spirits/souls are alive and awake even though our bodies are dead, I think the question is valid.
As it is, most say that what matters is that once one dies, that’s it——-but on the issue, where in the Bible does it say that once one dies, they have no other options?
If the impacts of original sin means that all men are born sinners/need to repent--yet they can still have the chance to come to the Lord/repent after death, I must wonder..... I’m sure it Iwould remove a lot of the reservations some people have. Athiests wouldn’t be able to say there was no God if they were standing in front of him. And CS Lewis in his book “The Last Battle” seems to suggest that there is an opportunity at the end.
Some of what I'm saying goes into the view of puragatory--and of course, I'm aware that many may have issue with that. However, I must say that the view has some reasonability to it. On the issue of purgatory, its something that I wish was discussed more. In
discussing the issue with many of my brothers in the Eastern Orthodox Church, it has always been interesting to see some of their perspectives on the issue--as well as of those in liturgical circles such as Catholic..and some others. For those who are Hebrew Catholics ( as discussed here in #
15 #
4 /#
33 ) and who feel Jewish culture is well reflected in the concept, that's something to consider as well (IMHO). Outside of that, it is already an historical fact that the early Christian practice of prayer for the dead was not an odd thing to do. …
with many of the early Church fathers in the 1st through 3rd centuries speaking often on the subject. …whether it be with
Augustine, Gregory of Nyssa, Tertullian or many others.
As it relates to Jewish culture/a Hebraic perspective, The Maccabees apparently PRAYED for the dead (and gave us the “gift” of “Purgatory”
. ..and though others may take issue with it, one must keep in mind the historicity of the book—especially seeing its description of the Jewish Feast of Hannakah, also refered to as the celebration of the the
Feast of
Dedication in
John 10:21-23/ John 10 .
For an excerpt from the book on the issue:
A)nd they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (
2 Macc 12:42-45
Granted that Maccabbees…both the
1 Maccabees and
2 Maccabees ) …..had one element where they took things to the “Puragotory” level–and Jews do not regard 2 Maccabees as canonical, perhaps because of its theological innovations……but the book is historical……and there are many elements I’ve been intrigued by when seeing other scriptures. For Jesus did indeed celebrate the Holiday of Channakuh that came out of the Maccabees account....and although he didn't comment on it, I must wonder what he'd say about it on certain aspects if he was willing to participate in a holiday that endorsed it.
There are other scriptures within the protestant cannon that have had many pondering purgatory—-one of which may refer to a prayer for the dead, found in
2 Timothy 1:16-18, which reads as follows:
May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord’s mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well.
As with the verses from 2 Maccabees, these verses refer to prayers that will help the deceased “on that day” (perhaps Judgement Day).
Of coruse it is not stated that Onesiphorus, for whom Paul prayed, was dead. However, some scholars infer this based on the way Paul only refers to him in the past tense, and prays for present blessings on his household, but for him only “on that day”. And towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to “Prisca and Aquila, and the house of Onesiphorus”, distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila.
There’s also consideration of how other things Jesus said seem to indicate that there will be forgiveness in the world to come—as seen in
Matthew 12:31-33 /
Luke 12:9-11………..and, for that matter, how God could forgive the sins of others who were acting in ignorance when they were nailing them to the cross in
Luke 23:33-35—without any record of their ever asking God’s forgiveness in THIS lifetime since they were unaware of who the Christ was..
Something else to consider..
1 Corinthians 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are
baptized for the
dead? If the
dead are not raised at all, why are people
baptized for them?
1 Corinthians 15:28-30 1 Corinthians 15
I was curious as to what your thoughts would be on this. Obvious is the case that many in in the faith have always had a view of taking the Word literally..and I’m reminded of many conversations where it seemed that this was brought up in theological discourses on taking the WOrd seriously and yet many being unwilling to accept what Paul said here–showing in action that many really do not believe in taking the Word seriously and more specifically, taking the WOrd wherever it’s in line with their paticular views.
Personally, I take the scripture literally—and I see no reason as to why not. Many may say “So, you’re basically being for the concept of PURGATORY/THINKING DEAD RELATIVES can be redeemed??!!”, with the reaction often being based on what may often be seen in many liturgical circles
Though difficult, I don’t see the verse as a problem to take literally since there’ve been numerous interpretations given to it…..with one reasonable view being that “they…who are baptized..” refers to living believers giving outward testimony to their faith in baptism by immersion due to how they were originally drawn to the Lord by the examples of other exemplary, faithful beluievers who were witnesses of the power of God and who had already died subsequently. This paticular perspective is very much what often occurs with the concept of Icons in Eastern Orthodox–where pictures of previous saints that have already gone before us (including those in Hebrews 11/
Hebrews 11:11 with the Hall of Faith).
For in the view of Eastern Thought, those who’ve gone ahead of us are not merely elsewhere in the “Great Beyond”–but very much aware of what is happening down below. Kind of like what happens for many when Grandma died and loved ones–whether those who were believers inspired by her example to continue walking godly or those who were not saved and yet were won to the Lord by her actions/chose to dedicate their lives to Christ— were wondering of the woman who kept the family together in Christ think “I know that Grandma is looking down upon me right now…and I hope she’s proud”. It’s the reality that the saints are with us in spiritual connection:
Hebrews 12:1
[
God Disciplines His Sons ] Therefore, since we are surrounded by
such a
great cloud of
witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
Hebrews 12:1-3
By no means am I saying, by the way, that it’s appropiate for others to act as if they can have conversations with Grandma as with what often happens when a family member dies and they say that they’re still in the house and every morning they wake up they still hear that the tea pot’s whistling every morning before church just like it was when she was alive/making tea for everyone (lol lol ). But For anyone who has studied the book of Hebrews fully, the deceased individuals of Hebrews 11 is something I keep in mind when it comes to identifying who the “witnesses” are that’re looking on toward us. Personally, what comes to my mind is not only the thought of others whose past lives of faith encourage myself to do the same and have given godly examples to follow/give motivation…..but it is also the thought of actually having a crowd up in Heaven made of heavenly saints cheering me on actively that captivates my mind.
Others can disagree---but as it concerns the states of those who are dead and their in need of continual prayer (just as they'd be here if they were alive), it may be more than reasonable to say that original sin's impacts are not limited to this life alone...and on the issue of those who pass,
I'd tend to see provision in the sense of Mercy…..as God often made clear that He judges people on the basis of what they know rather than what they didn’t.
