Question !

[Supreme]

To me, the most revealing experience with regards to the human body was attending a nude beach: only then did I truly realize that there is nothing inherently sexual or objectifying about the human body. It's something we project into it, based on our cultural imprinting. And that was an immensely liberating insight.

I have to say, Willow, I completely agree. The human body is only percieved to be sexualized by the particular cultural pattern you follow. I don't believe the nude form is inherently sexual in the slightest, it's just beautiful. Indeed, there are some pieces of clothing that are more sexually suggestive than the fully nude form- and that's certainly something, isn't it? I think we should all wake up and rid ourselves of this immature sexualization of the nude human form, and start to realize the sheer natural beauty of such a form. I'm not suggesting we should all become nudists- far from it. I'm just asking why one should automatically assume sexualization (as opposed to beauty or art) when they see somebody in their underwear.

 

[Supreme]

Prophet Jesus PBUH as a Muslim didn't drink wine at all , but according to the Bible he did .

The Bible is easily the most valuable and largest source on the life of Jesus. It explicitely states that Jesus drank wine, and He even turned water into wine on one occasion. Is there another source that you could provide that says that Jesus didn't drink wine? If so, I would be grateful to see what is said.

[FONT="]
The Prophets in the Holy Qur'an were pious , righteous , great examples PBUT . Read what Allah says about them :[/FONT]

...but not sinless. Everyone sins. This is an established fact. Sin is part of human nature, and the only One free of sin is God. The prophets were mere mortals, and therefore not sinless in any shape, space or form.

[FONT="]Umm , You are a liberal , i think you don't follow God's commandments ..

I thought i said " Nobody " . Allah SWT isn't " Nobody " He is the creator , He is [/FONT][FONT="]the Most Compassionate the Most Merciful[/FONT][FONT="], When he requested me to do something i just obey , Because he knows best , he knows what's good and what's bad for the creations ..

For example : ( the prayer ) . the prayer is obligation , every muslim must pray five times a day , The hijab is obligation as well . So when we pray 5 time a day Are we forced because Allah swt forces us to pray ?!!
Are you going to call us " being forced " ! Heh ..[/FONT]

Look- if something is an obligation, you have no choice in the matter. If you have no choice in the matter, you are being forced. See?

Of course No , some women are like a fashion-plate seeking stares and adoration in order to gain self-esteem.

As we can see there are a lot of women who buy their bodies , women without a goal , just living for fun . Do they have a value ? No

[FONT=&quot]

Of course they have value. Everyone is valuable to God. At least, that is my Christian belief. Why would God create something without value?

[/FONT]

[FONT="]Heheheheheh , You act like innocents ..

Have not you heard about the women who rape every day , Did men take their permission before they raped them !
[/FONT]

Nope. But that's illegal. Key word. The law states that you have to have the consent of both the man and the woman before intercourse takes place. If not, there are consequences.

[FONT="]I agree with you " Muslim women who wear Hijab are the most beautiful women " but i want to clarify one point , It's not necessary the black color , there are muslim women who choose not to wear the black color , It's okay ..[/FONT]

Wait... what? How on Earth did you gather from my post that I thought women in the black Hijab were the most beautiful? Just to clarify, I think women with a black skin tone are the most beautiful. Nothing to do with clothing. Just my sexuality.

[FONT="]When you see the light " the true religion " you will do your best to spread it .[/FONT]

Agreed.

[FONT="]There is nothing in Islam called " Missionary " we believe in something called Da'wah which means " Calling people to Islam " but we aslo believe in Allah's words .[/FONT]

I know. I was talking about Judaism, but to a far greater extent, Christianity being missionary religions. Not Islam.

[FONT="]
We do not pay money to poor people to embrace Islam ![/FONT]

Well done, I'm pleased for you. But what relevance is this to my post...?
[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT="] .
[/FONT]

 

[JJWhite]

If it is "mandatory" under Islam then that suggests you cannot refrain from wearing it and remain a muslim.

No! It doesn't work that way. Such a person would be a sinful Muslim, like every other Muslim in the entire world, even those in Niqab. No one is perfect. What I was trying to explain above is that in Islam leaving what is mandatory is SINFUL but IT DOES NOT TAKE A PERSON OUT OF ISLAM.

In the Qur'aan, God says He forgives all sins EXCEPT shirk. Now, what's the best way to explain that word. Shirk is usually translated as setting up partners with Allah. I guess the best way I can put it is to give what is due only to God to other than God. As long as you worship no one other than God and acknowledge Him as the Perfect Creator and final authority, then you are a Muslim, EVEN if you don't always do what He says. A minority of scholars add the 5 daily prayers as the ONE act that MUST be done for a person to be Muslim in addition to the proper belief in One God. No cholar says that if you don't wear Hijab you aren't Muslim. Crazy zealots might make some poor ladies feel that way though. Then they start badmouthing the non-Hijaabis and being mean to them. I think some people are wierd and get some sort of self-satisfaction by telling other people they're wrong and forget to take a look at themselves and what they're doing.

How is wearing "loose clothing and a headscarf" mandatory but wearing Niqab is your free choice (as I quoted you as saying earlier). This is contradictory.

Okay... long story cut short.

Muslims believe that all rulings are primarily derived from Qur'aan and Hadith. Consensus of scholars on rulings derived is considered 'for sure', but when there's a difference of opinion on an issue among the scholars on how to interpret the evidence from Qur'aan and Hadith then it's not 'for sure'. For centuries and centuries all scholars have agreed that covering the body other than face, hands and feet is mandatory. (Only recently, people with no 'accreditation' from past scholars have stated it is not mandatory and gave their own interpretation to the evidences. Most Muslims do not deem these new interpretations as acceptable. Lots of details to go with that.) Anyway, for over a millenium they all agreed that one sins when she doesn't cover that much. As for Niqaab, a minority of scholars view it as mandatory, most scholars categorized it as recommended. A recommended act is something encouraged, but if left, one is not blameworthy nor sinful. So, whenever there's a valid difference of opinion ( a whole other topic on how to decide what's valid and what's not) then it's not 'for sure'. Scholar A might be right or scholar B might be right. In our personal practice, we can only try our best to follow the opinion that seems best supported by evidence. The Prophet Muhammad said everyone will be rewarded for his/her effort. If you get it wrong, you still get credit for trying your best, if you get it right, you get double reward.

There are a lot more details. Let me know if you still have question.

It seems you are suggesting that the specific dress codes that many associate with Islam are in fact a cultural phenomenon.

Specific requirements are based on textual evidence. Beyond that, a person is free to choose how to dress. This is largely influenced by culture. In Saudi Arabia they like to wear a big, black garment. In Africa, their clothes are usually a lot more colorful, etc.

If you acknowledge they are cultural then it is clear that the religious code and sanctions that emerge do so out of a specific cultural background. That would suggest that many aspects of Islam that seem to be seen as mandatory, are in fact just expressions of a culture, and have nothing whatsoever to do with Allah.

This is the case with TONS of stuff. However, the obligatory nature of a woman to cover her body (besides face, hands, and feet) when in the presence of non-relative males is of a religious nature. Not a cultural one.

And, I will still say that God knows best.

 

[JJWhite]

My suggestion to Candle of Hope and Supreme.... sometimes discussions aren't worth it. If it starts to turn into argumentation rather than discussion, it should be dropped.

Prophet Muhammad, PBUH, said (best translation I can come up with-forgive me, it's not perfect):

'I guarantee a house in the heart of paradise for the one who leaves argumentation EVEN when he is in the right.'

We shouldn't let our discussions turn into arguments. Please note that the spirit is different in the two cases.

And God knows best.

 

[JJWhite]

God blinded me because I don't believe. In order to believe in God I must see God, but I'm blind.

I heard that there's this stuff that cures blindness. You should look into getting some.

 

[candle of hope]

Let me first post this ..

Why Islam prohibits the drinking of alcohol ?


Islam’s holistic approach to health and well-being means that anything that is harmful or mostly harmful, is forbidden. Therefore, Islam takes an uncompromising stand towards alcohol and forbids its consumption in either small or large quantities. Alcohol is undoubtedly harmful and adversely affects the mind and the body. It clouds the mind, causes disease, wastes money, and destroys individuals, families, and communities. Researchers have proven that there is a strong link between alcohol and gambling. Drinking impairs judgement, lowers inhibition, and encourages the type of risk taking involved in gambling and dangerous activities. God tells us in the Quran that intoxicants and gambling are abominations from Satan and orders us to avoid them. (Quran 5: 90)

In Australia, a country with a population of around 20 million, about 3000 people die each year from alcohol abuse while 65,000 others are hospitalised. Studies have consistently revealed a link between heavy drinking and brain damage and around 2500 Australians are treated annually for alcohol related brain damage. Research in the United Kingdom indicates that 6% of cancer deaths are related to alcohol abuse and Harvard Centre for Cancer Prevention says that drinking greatly increases the risk for numerous cancers. Alcohol is considered highly carcinogenic, increasing the risk of mouth, pharynx, larynx, oesophagus, liver, and breast cancers. Drinking alcohol during pregnancy can lead to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, causing the child to be small at birth, have some facial malformations, small eye openings, webbed or even missing fingers or toes, organ deformities, learning disabilities, mental retardation and much more.


Researchers in Australia have also estimated that 47% of all those who commit violent crimes, and 43% of all victims of these crimes, were drunk prior to the event. Alcohol is responsible for 44% of fire injuries, 34% of falls and drownings, 30% of car accidents, 16% of child abuse instances, and 7% of industrial accidents. Even though it is clear that alcohol is responsible for a great many evils it is legal and even encouraged in most societies. In Muslim countries where alcohol is forbidden many people still find it difficult to resist temptation and fall prey to the disease that is alcoholism. Amazingly even in the light of such startling evidence against alcohol, people around the globe continue to consume alcohol in ever-increasing amounts. Why?


Alcohol is one of the tools Satan uses to distract humankind from the worship of God. God states clearly in the Quran that Satan is an open enemy towards humankind yet by drinking alcohol, we invite Satan into our lives and make it easy for him to distract us from our real purpose in life, to worship God.
“Surely, Satan is an enemy to you, so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his followers that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire.” (Quran 35:6)


Alcohol affects the mind and makes sinful behaviour and evil actions fair seeming. It creates enmity and hatred between people, prevents them from remembering God and distracts them from praying, and calls them to participate in unlawful sexual relationships. Alcohol generates shame, regret, and disgrace, and renders the drinker witless. It leads to the disclosure of secrets and exposure of faults.


“Satan wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of God and from the prayer. So, will you not then abstain?” (Quran 5:91)


In pre Islamic Arabia, alcohol use was widespread. To eradicate this evil, God in His mercy revealed the prohibition in stages. First, He made it clear to them that the harm of drinking alcohol is greater than its benefit, next He told the Muslims not to come to prayer while intoxicated and finally, He revealed a verse totally prohibiting alcohol.
“O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, idolatry, and diving arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handiwork. So avoid that so that you may be successful.” (Quran 5: 90)


When this was revealed the Muslim citizens of Medina immediately began to destroy and empty their alcohol containers into the street. Even those who were guiltlessly enjoying cups of wine spat the alcohol from their mouths. It is said that the streets of Medina ran with alcohol. Why then is it so difficult to expunge this evil in the 21st century? Believers today must completely trust God, in the same way that the first Muslims trusted God and understood that He was their only Protector and Provider. All power and strength comes from God and a scourge like alcohol can be eradicated only when those affected by alcohol turn to God with complete submission.



The Quran is a book of guidance sent to all of humankind. It is a set of instructions from the Creator for His creation. If we follow these instructions, our lives will be easy and tranquil, even in the face of disaster and mishap. God links alcohol and gambling to idolatry and declares it filthy and evil; however, He is merciful and generous towards the believers and acknowledges the power of addiction.


Islam is committed to encouraging and facilitating those who wish to repent from evil doing and sinful behaviour. God accepts repentance from those who are truly sorry for their actions and committed to staying away from sin. Muslim communities do not ostracise those who have made mistakes but keep them within the fold of Islam encouraging them to seek the closeness to God that will allow them to leave sinful behaviour. Friends, family, and neighbours do not just look away while a person destroys himself or his family. Islam is a community-oriented faith. There is no place for an individual to do what he wants to do, if it hurts others. Alcohol abuse affects not just the alcoholic but also his or her family, and community. There is great wisdom in the prohibition of alcohol.

 

[candle of hope]

Why Pork is Forbidden in Islam :

Obeying the laws of God

God allows us to enjoy all the good lawful things and forbids us to partake of those things that are harmful to our beliefs, health, well being, or morals.

Islam is a holistic way of life, taking into account physical, spiritual, and emotional well-being, each a separate but overlapping part of the structure of a human being. God created us with a purpose; to worship Him, (Quran 51:56) but He did not abandon us to a world of instability and insecurity. He gave us a book of guidance, the Quran, and the example of Prophets and Messengers to explain that trusting in God was the way for us to achieve success in this life and in the hereafter.

. A Muslim spends his or her life endeavouring to please God by worshipping Him and obeying His laws, or rules. One of those rules is that the eating pork, or pork products is forbidden.

At first, one might wonder what harm could come from pork, a product eaten in many parts of the world, and the fact that pork contains parasites and diseases harmful to man may spring to mind as a justifiable reason for abstaining. However, when analysing why Muslims are forbidden to eat pork, this becomes a secondary reason. Muslims simply do not eat pork or pork products because God has prohibited it.

“He has forbidden you only dead animals, and blood, and the swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for other than God.” (Quran 2:173)

Sometimes we may never know or understand why God has ordained some things and prohibited others. In the case of pork, no specific reason for the prohibition is given except in Quran 6: 145 when God says, in reference to the flesh of swine (pig), “for that surely is impure”. A Muslim submits to God’s commands willingly, without needing to know the reason behind the divine rule. Moreover, God has expressly stated that a believer hears the words of his Lord and obeys them.


“‘We hear and we obey.’ And such are the successful (who will live forever in Paradise).” (Quran 24:51)

“When God and His Messenger have decreed a matter, they (the believers) should not have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger; he has indeed strayed into a plain error.” (Quran 33:36)
A believer understands that God is the Most Wise and the Most Just; therefore, His rules are designed to benefit us in our daily needs, be they physical, emotional, or spiritual. The Creator knows the best way for His creation to live in this world and prepare for the next. It is not permissible for a Muslim to consume pork under any circumstances except in cases of dire necessity, such as, if a person’s life depends on eating it. In cases of dire necessity, prohibited things are permitted.
God allows us to enjoy all the good lawful things and forbids us to partake of those things that may be harmful to our beliefs, health, well being, or morals. Consequently, Muslims are acutely aware of the dangers of eating things that are forbidden and therefore make concerted efforts to seek out permissible food, even if it involves extra effort or expense.

If a believer consumes pork unknowingly or by mistake, there is no sin of him or her. God does not punish anyone for lack of knowledge, nor for unintentional mistakes or forgetfulness. However if a believer is certain, or thinks that any pork, or pork products may be in his food, drinks or medicines then it is not permissible for him or her to consume it. If he has doubts then he must make an effort to inquire about the ingredients or ask for details. Nowadays knowledge about ingredients and the manufacturing process is readily available and the prohibition applies whether there is a small amount of pork or pork products, or a large amount.

The scholars of Islam differ over the issue of whether or not changing the form of the impurity (in this case pork products) lifts the prohibition. The Islamic Organisation for Medical Sciences is of the opinion that changing the form (for example, food, and medicine additives) so that it becomes something different, does lift the prohibition. However, there is no doubt and no difference of opinion that it is forbidden to consume meat derived from the pig, including ham and bacon.

The recent outbreak of swine flu in Mexico and North America led some countries to slaughter pigs en masse however there is ample scientific evidence to suggest that pigs harbour parasites that are harmful to humans and the pig has long been considered the ideal breeding ground for influenza.

 

[candle of hope]

In Part 1 we discussed the primary reason for Muslims abstaining from eating pork and pork products, and that is, that God has forbidden it. As the Creator of humankind and all that exists, God knows what is good for us, and He has sent guidance enabling us to make wise decisions. Just as a computer would not work properly if it were incorrectly programmed, a human being is not able to function if he is not nourished correctly. Islam is a holistic religion that recognises the interconnectedness of spiritual, emotional, and physical health. What a person eats and drinks has a direct bearing on their overall health and well-being.

Virologists have long been aware that the pig is an ideal breeding ground for influenza, so it is no surprise that the latest threat, swine flu, originated in pigs. Microbiologist and immunology expert, Dr Graham Burgess says, “Viruses that would normally grow in the chicken can potentially grow in the pig and ones that grow in humans will potentially grow in pigs. So we consider the pig a great mixing pot for viruses and this is where it can play a real role in generating new viruses".
The pig is known to harbour parasites as well as bacteria and viruses. Cysticercosis is an infection caused by the pork tapeworm, Taenia solium. Infection occurs when the tapeworm larvae enter the body and form cysticerci (cysts). When cysticerci are found in the brain, the condition is called neurocysticercosis. This tapeworm in pigs is found worldwide but is most problematic in poor and developing countries were pigs are allowed to roam freely and often eat human faeces. This infection can occur even in modern developed countries but the CDC reports that it is very rare in Muslim countries where eating pork is forbidden.

Trichinellosis, also called trichinosis, is caused by eating raw or undercooked meat of animals infected with the larvae of a species of worm called Trichinella. Infection occurs most commonly in certain wild carnivorous (meat-eating) animals but it may also occur in domestic pigs. The CDC warns that if a human eats meat containing infective Trichinella cysts, the acid in the stomach dissolves the hard covering of the cyst and releases the worms.

The worms pass into the small intestine and, in 1-2 days, become mature. After mating, adult females lay eggs. These eggs develop into immature worms, travel through the arteries, and are transported to muscles. Within the muscles, the worms curl into a ball and encyst (become enclosed in a capsule). This infection occurs when these encysted worms are consumed in meat. The number of cases of trichinellosis throughout the world has steadily decreased due to an awareness of the dangers of eating raw and undercooked pork products and legislation prohibiting feeding raw meat garbage to pigs.

Pigs are omnivores , which means they consume both plants and animals. Pigs will scavenge and eat any type of food, including dead insects, worms, tree bark, rotting carcasses, garbage, and even other pigs. Pigs have very few sweat glands so therefore they are unable to completely rid their bodies of toxins. New evidence indicates that farming practices are leading directly to the spread of human bacterial infections.

Pigs often live in the small spaces and fetid conditions that exist in many modern factory farms and studies are revealing that pigs frequently harbour antibiotic resistant staph bacteria. This drug resistant bacterium is now entering our food supply and recent investigations in the United States of America indicate that 49% of pigs and 45% of pig workers now harbour these bacteria responsible for killing more then 18,000 people in the US every year. “He has forbidden you only dead animals, and blood, and the flesh of swine...” (Quran 2:173)

“For that surely is impure” (Quran 6:145)
Muslims refrain from eating pork and pork products because God has forbidden it. However a little investigation into the anatomy and lifestyle of the pig reveals that it is certainly an unclean animal. Those interested in consuming healthy, natural, and pure foods would do well to abstain from pork and pork products.

I apologize for the long topic ..

 

[candle of hope]

My suggestion to Candle of Hope and Supreme.... sometimes discussions aren't worth it. If it starts to turn into argumentation rather than discussion, it should be dropped.

Asslmau alikum dear sister ..

Jazaki Allahu Khair for your suggestion , but i want to tell you sister that I'm not arguing , i just wanted to clarify ( refute ) some misconceptions about Islam ..

Thanks ..

 

[talitha]

Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!

Yes, it is only those who seek Him who are promised to find Him......

the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel[/quote]

It has been asked many times...what about the ones who seek and don't find?

The fundamentalist answer is obvious, isn't it?

First of all, the fundamentalists don't consider me a fundamentalist, so I guess what you mean by the f word is that I am an ultra-Christian - I'll take that.
You are right, the answer is obvious. When God's promises and my results collide, God is NEVER the one in the wrong. I learned that first-hand. Anyway, there is no promise as to WHEN or HOW SOON we will find.......

So God has hidden from me and then blinded me so I'll never find him?

You are not understanding my quotes. I'm sorry; I should have explained.

The first one talks about God as opposed to idols, just as you did, in the post I was responding to. Idols are visible to the physical eye; God is not. Though yes I do think there is a deeper truth there. Why has God created us in such a way that we cannot automatically see him? I believe that our entire physical environment is designed to provoke a search - a quest, if you will - to find Him. In this way our desires are refined.

The second quote does not say that God blinded you. It says "the god of this world" has blinded you. It is Jesus that takes away the blinders, if we will let Him. The "god of this world," which can also be translated "the god of this age," is whatever society in general sees or even creates to be their god. False beliefs personified into a wanna-be god, which is then inhabited and given power by demonic entities. The most popular "god of this world" in our times is arguably the god of tolerance.

We have verses similar to that in Islamic Scripture too. But you see, both religions ALSO have texts that tell us how eager God is for people to turn back to him.... Now, what the verses up there indicate is that when God gives you chance after chance to get to know him, IF you keep insisting to turn your back on that and not pay attention, He will make it HARDER for you actually see the truth in things. This could be in terms of an entire religion, or even on a specific issue. If YOU don't care and YOU don't try, THEN God will make what YOU want easier for you and the truth harder to find. BUT, if you try to find God, and you put in the effort to look, He will most definitely assist you in that as well. He'll even make it harder for you to disbelieve.....

Well, said, JJWhite, even if you are a Muslim. Thanks for pointing this out.

True. I do not like that people follow the deception of Islam that leads to Hell.

So do i

What do you mean, "So do i," candle?

True, I am sure that Allah would seek to destroy you more blatantly. But if you follow after Jehovah, He will protect you from Allah.

What are trying to say ?
Please . I believe in Allah swt i don't believe in what you said and i believe that Allah swt "glorious and exalted is He" is the creator of the heavens and the earth , so he's the only one who can protect us from everything ..
Peace ..

I know you don't believe in what I said - if you did, you wouldn't be Muslim. What I was trying to say was in response to the quote from the Q'ran - "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
I do not think this is an empty threat; I believe that Allah will indeed seek to destroy those who turn away from Islam. But I also believe that the one true God - Jehovah/Yahweh/God-of-Abraham,Isaac,andJacob,Father of our Lord Jesus Christ - will protect those people from Allah if they turn to Him.

I didn't see him even when I was a Christian, I was just following instructions - I didn't realise that for a long time.

Real Christianity for many begins with that realisation.

 

[hikersong]

To me, the most revealing experience with regards to the human body was attending a nude beach: only then did I truly realize that there is nothing inherently sexual or objectifying about the human body. It's something we project into it, based on our cultural imprinting. And that was an immensely liberating insight.

What I discovered was a complete surprise. Yes, there were nude women of all sorts, but I found that the thrill of nudity was very short-lived, and after only a few minutes I discovered that I felt very relaxed. I would have described it at the time as a "Garden of Eden feeling". The nude beach wasn't a sexual place at all. It was just very natural. All the expectations of society -- all the roles and demands -- just melted away and allowed me to relax. I have never been to a more relaxing beach.

I agree. From the opposite perspective my Dad would stand in front of the TV if there was ever any nudity (not much in the UK at that time). As a hormonal teenager this had the effect of making me obsess about nakedness. At the weekends I would stay up after my Dad had gone to bed, listening carefully for his footsteps, just to get a chance to watch a little nudity on telly.

It's worth mentioning so that those who make sure they are fully covered realise they could be having the opposite effect to the one intended.

From my personal belief system though, I see God as the one looking at the ENTIRE MAP and since He has BOTH the ability to see the 'big picture' AND every nook and cranny

Sorry JJ. This just made me laugh coming immediately, as it did, after the mention of nudist beaches. Inside every grown man is a smutty school boy trying not to giggle and get his wrists slapped.

 

[JJWhite]

Sorry JJ. This just made me laugh coming immediately, as it did, after the mention of nudist beaches. Inside every grown man is a smutty school boy trying not to giggle and get his wrists slapped.

tsk.. tsk.. tsk...

From the opposite perspective my Dad would stand in front of the TV if there was ever any nudity (not much in the UK at that time). As a hormonal teenager this had the effect of making me obsess about nakedness. At the weekends I would stay up after my Dad had gone to bed, listening carefully for his footsteps, just to get a chance to watch a little nudity on telly.

Wicked Willow... take note of how the male mind often works. ha ha.

It's worth mentioning so that those who make sure they are fully covered realise they could be having the opposite effect to the one intended.

Umm... there's a lot I could say about that. But, I doubt it would be very appropriate. This thread has taken quite a nasty turn. O.O

 

[bling]

JJWhite said:

With deeds it's like weight too... The more good choices you make, the heavier your good side will be, and the more bad choices you make, the heavier the bad side will be. So, they kind of cancel each other out. Some good things, like honoring parents, can be weighter than maybe something like picking up a piece of trash, but both carry their due weight if done sincerely for God. Same with sins. Murder weighs a lot more than calling someone a bad name, but both are bad

Some people that call themselves Christians may have a similar definition, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Do you believe: (like the scales of justice) on Judgment day if your good deeds and sincerity outweigh the bad “stuff” sins you have done it will not earn you salvation, but God will extend mercy to you over others with that have the scale going the other way?
If that is you’re thinking; then that is salvation by works (doing stuff to “earn” your salvation). If you are a martyr for the “cause” of Islam are you not automatically assured a place in heaven?
Can you know God has given you a birth right that includes heaven, if you do not sell it or give it back (it is still up to your free will
There are like 15 different Hebrew words for sin, but they all have us falling short since they all must be kept.[/
Adam and Eve sinned first since they were the first people and they like all humans except Christ cannot keep from sinning until after they have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Sin is not the problem, but unforgiven sin is a huge problem. Mans objective is not to “keep from ever sinning”, but it is to accept and grow Godly type Love. The Christian God is compelled by His Love and His Love above all other characteristics.
God hates sin and Christians hate sin, but God does not stop people from sinning and it is not our job to physically stop others from sinning as long as it is themselves they are hurting and not others. A lot of sin does hurt others and the sinner carries the burden of His sins that makes him want relieve from that burden. The purpose of sin is to force people to seek the forgiveness of their creator. God is just right there by each individual waiting for that turning to Him, trusting His Love to forgive, and humbly accepting charity in the form of forgiveness. The Bible tells us, “He that is forgiven much will Love much…”.
What objective does sin have for the Muslim or can your God not keep people from sinning?

 

[JJWhite]

Some people that call themselves Christians may have a similar definition, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Do you believe: (like the scales of justice) on Judgment day if your good deeds and sincerity outweigh the bad “stuff” sins you have done it will not earn you salvation, but God will extend mercy to you over others with that have the scale going the other way?

If I understand you correctly, then I suppose that sounds about right.


If that is you’re thinking; then that is salvation by works (doing stuff to “earn” your salvation).

From one perspective, that would be part of the equation. Works are A means. God's Mercy is the ultimate means.

If you are a martyr for the “cause” of Islam are you not automatically assured a place in heaven?

Generally speaking. If done with sincerity and achieved while doing the right thing. Not everyone who thinks he's on a martyrdom quest may actually achieve martyrdom. God knows best. I can study more about this.

Can you know God has given you a birth right that includes heaven, if you do not sell it or give it back (it is still up to your free will
There are like 15 different Hebrew words for sin, but they all have us falling short since they all must be kept.

I don't understand.

Adam and Eve sinned first since they were the first people and they like all humans except Christ cannot keep from sinning until after they have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Sin is not the problem, but unforgiven sin is a huge problem. Mans objective is not to “keep from ever sinning”, but it is to accept and grow Godly type Love. The Christian God is compelled by His Love and His Love above all other characteristics.

I agree that no one can keep from ever sinning and that it's a growing process.

God hates sin and Christians hate sin, but God does not stop people from sinning and it is not our job to physically stop others from sinning as long as it is themselves they are hurting and not others. A lot of sin does hurt others and the sinner carries the burden of His sins that makes him want relieve from that burden. The purpose of sin is to force people to seek the forgiveness of their creator. God is just right there by each individual waiting for that turning to Him, trusting His Love to forgive, and humbly accepting charity in the form of forgiveness. The Bible tells us, “He that is forgiven much will Love much…”.

All sounds fine to me.

What objective does sin have for the Muslim or can your God not keep people from sinning?

- God allows sin to happen.

- God does not create anything inherently evil and sinful. Sin is acquired through creatures' actions.

- No evil is absolute. The good that comes of any evil, including sin will always outweigh the bad.

- Sin allows for the manifestation of many of God's Names and Attributes. Sin needs to be there for forgiveness to be there. Sin needs to be there for repentance to occur, so that acceptance of repentance can occur. Sin needs to be there for the might and justice of God to be fully manifest. Etc.

- So much GOOD would not exist without sin. Appreciation of certainty cannot be achieved without feeling doubt. Appreciation of righteousness can not be achieved without falling into sinful behavior. Also, as you mention, turning to God and feeling humble before Him and getting closer to Him are all achieved to a much higher degree after sin.

-One must differentiate between God's Will in the sense of what He allows to happen and what He has laid out for us in terms of expectations. Let's call the first bolded part Will, from perspective A, and the second bolded part Will, from perspective B. So, if we look at it sin from perspective A, sin is in accordance with God's Will. If we're talking about Will from perspective B, then sin is not in accordance with God's Will, i.e. law.

 

[hikersong]

tsk.. tsk.. tsk...

Glad you could see the funny side.

 

[InsightSoul]

I believe your answer might lie in the passage below:

Proverbs 26:4-5 (King James Version)

4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

 

[bling]

- God allows sin to happen.

- God does not create anything inherently evil and sinful. Sin is acquired through creatures' actions.

- No evil is absolute. The good that comes of any evil, including sin will always outweigh the bad.

- Sin allows for the manifestation of many of God's Names and Attributes. Sin needs to be there for forgiveness to be there. Sin needs to be there for repentance to occur, so that acceptance of repentance can occur. Sin needs to be there for the might and justice of God to be fully manifest. Etc.

- So much GOOD would not exist without sin. Appreciation of certainty cannot be achieved without feeling doubt. Appreciation of righteousness can not be achieved without falling into sinful behavior. Also, as you mention, turning to God and feeling humble before Him and getting closer to Him are all achieved to a much higher degree after sin.

-One must differentiate between God's Will in the sense of what He allows to happen and what He has laid out for us in terms of expectations. Let's call the first bolded part Will, from perspective A, and the second bolded part Will, from perspective B. So, if we look at it sin from perspective A, sin is in accordance with God's Will. If we're talking about Will from perspective B, then sin is not in accordance with God's Will, i.e. law.

First, you talk of the benefits to sin and humans cannot keep from sinning, but do you say, “all the prophets did not sin?”
Christian’s say that only Christ did not sin, but we also feel Christ was no mere human. If anyone could keep from sinning than God would not have to forgive sins, Christ would not have to go to the cross, and we as obedient children would have the right to eternal life because we had done nothing wrong.
Others have presented the idea: “We cannot know what good is without the bad”. To some extent we long to leave this earth (full of tragedies) and go home to our rest in heaven. If there was no “bad” on this earth there would be no need for heaven and hell, so we do not need the bad. Agnostics and atheist would not agree that we need the bad to see the good and I am in agreement with them on that. God does not need bad to appreciate good.
How does sin help God with showing, displaying, expressing or whatever His might and justice? God takes no satisfaction in punishing the wicked.
Christian make it very simple: Sin, tragedies, Christ going to the cross, satan roaming around, hell and heaven all exist and continue to help willing humans (not to help God) fulfill their earthly objective. We are all allowed to sin, in order to have a need for forgiveness, we seek and trust (faith) our creator’s help in the form of His forgiveness, by accepting God forgiveness as a free undeserving and unconditional gift we Love much(our objective) for …he that is forgiven much loves much… The only reason Christ did not need to sin is because He always had Love the same as God always had Love, so Christ did not come to earth to obtain Love.

 

[JJWhite]

First, you talk of the benefits to sin and humans cannot keep from sinning, but do you say, “all the prophets did not sin?”

Actually, to my knowledge, there's a difference of opinion on that among Muslim scholars. I prefer to follow the opinion that Prophets of God did not commit major sins, nor did they commit minor sins often... but they did make a few mistakes here and there on account that they are human.

I base my opinion on:

1) Muhammad (s) said, "EVERY son of Adam is a sinner, and the best of those who sin are those who repent.

2) Chapter 48:2 says that God forgives Prophet Muhammad his sins. i.e. he must have done some.

3) Allah rebukes the Prophet Muhammad in Chapter 80:1 for turning away from a blind man who wanted to learn in order to keep his appointment with the rich and wealthy elders.

And other texts, too. One hadith actually describes a scene from the Day of Judgment where Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses confess to having erred. Jesus actually does not mention any mistake.

And God knows best.


Christian’s say that only Christ did not sin, but we also feel Christ was no mere human. If anyone could keep from sinning than God would not have to forgive sins, Christ would not have to go to the cross, and we as obedient children would have the right to eternal life because we had done nothing wrong.

IF

Others have presented the idea: “We cannot know what good is without the bad”. To some extent we long to leave this earth (full of tragedies) and go home to our rest in heaven. If there was no “bad” on this earth there would be no need for heaven and hell, so we do not need the bad. Agnostics and atheist would not agree that we need the bad to see the good and I am in agreement with them on that. God does not need bad to appreciate good.

This morning my son said, ''I don't like school." I asked him, "What do you like instead?" He said, "Vacation." Unfortunately, HUMAN's nature is to not appreciate health until one is sick, not to appreciate time until one is overwhelmed with business, not to appreciate youth until one is old, and not to appreciate virtue without seeing the ill-effects of sin, etc.


How does sin help God with showing, displaying, expressing or whatever His might and justice?

Here's another example. There would be no forgiveness without sin. God is the Most Forgiving. This eternal attribute of His is manifest when He forgives sins that are actually committed.

God takes no satisfaction in punishing the wicked.
Christian make it very simple: Sin, tragedies, Christ going to the cross, satan roaming around, hell and heaven all exist and continue to help willing humans (not to help God) fulfill their earthly objective.

Of course. I couldn't agree more.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]If all of you, jinn and mankind, were to worship like the most righteous amongst you, it would not increase the dominion of Allah in any way shape or form. And if all of you, jinn and mankind sinned as the most wicked heart amongst you, it would not decrease from the dominion of Allah. (Hadith Qudsi)

God does not need us nor our worship. We are the true beneficiaries.
[/FONT]We are all allowed to sin, in order to have a need for forgiveness, we seek and trust (faith) our creator’s help in the form of His forgiveness, by accepting God forgiveness as a free undeserving and unconditional gift we Love much(our objective) for …he that is forgiven much loves much… The only reason Christ did not need to sin is because He always had Love the same as God always had Love, so Christ did not come to earth to obtain Love.

May God increase us in love, mercy and righteousness and make us among those who are most beloved to Him.

 

[bling]

May God increase us in love, mercy and righteousness and make us among those who are most beloved to Him.

This post shows us to be very much in agreement. I have also read those passages in the Quran that suggest all but Jesus have sinned. I have a problem with Muhammad also having many wives (like David and Solomon), a child bride, and lusting after another man’s wife (like David). So our agreement that Muhammad sinned is refreshing.
There are many reasons to say the bad is not needed to appreciate the good, but the bad does contrast the good very well. If we wanted to see who was really good and who were the bad we would not look in a country club. In the middle of tragedies the truly righteous shine forth. Some will inter heaven as babies never experiencing “bad”, but will experience only the good. Tragedies (bad) have a much greater purpose than just showing the contrast. Forgiveness (as you mentioned) is huge for Christians.

 

[JJWhite]

This post shows us to be very much in agreement. I have also read those passages in the Quran that suggest all but Jesus have sinned.

I don't know which passage/s you are referring to. I know of a hadith which depicts a scene of the Day of Judgment, where Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses all confess to sins, but Jesus does not mention any sin. As far as I know, we have no mention of Jesus committing any sin in our Scripture. We also have a hadith that says that when every child is born, Satan pokes the baby, and that the only two that did not get poked by Satan were Mary and Jesus. However, the generality of the statement that all sons of Adam sin, and our belief that Jesus is a son of Adam, would lead me to believe that Jesus was not completely sinless, though definitely, incomparable to people like us, who are very sinful. I know this would not add up in your mind, since you view all sin as equal. For me though, we view that some ba deeds are worse than others.

I have a problem with Muhammad also having many wives (like David and Solomon), a child bride, and lusting after another man’s wife (like David). So our agreement that Muhammad sinned is refreshing.

First of all, the lusting thing is not true. That is a disgusting exaggeration. And that verse that mentions that he was hiding some feelings is strong evidence of Muhammad's honesty in transmitting the revelation of God. It must have been very embarrassing for him to tell everyone that he had been attracted to her, yet God wished to reveal what he could have easily kept secret in his heart. He would never have fantasized about anyone, or lusted, or done anything immoral nor indecent. It is normal human nature to find certain people attractive, regardless of how pure and moral you are. Muhammad was a human, but, I believe he was the best human, and an example for us all.

As for the other things, those things go back to the culture of the time, and more importantly to the wisdoms for which God ordained these things. Marriage is a BIG responsibility. It's not like, "Oh, lucky me, I have a dozen wives." Each one of Muhammad's wives was different, and the things we learn from each are unique. Women played a big role in the transmission of Islamic knowledge to us, ESPECIALLY the child bride you are referring to. The details of Prophet Muhammad's personal life were related to us by her. She had an amazing mind. She lived for a long time after the Prophet's death and continued to teach both men and women for decades afterwards. I do not consider any one of the things you mention as sinful behavior. In fact, it was per God's command that he married many wives and it has served Islam greatly. Also, I wouldn't believe that David lusted over anyone either. Prophets don't do that sort of thing.

And as for polygyny, it's not even God who forbade that for you Christians, as far as I know. That rule was made way after Christ, correct? Do scholars have the authority to change God's rules like that?

Allah says in the Qur'an (translated) about the Christians:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

When this verse was revealed, Adi ibn Hatim, who had been a Christian, came to the Prophet Muhammad and objected. He agreed that they had taken Jesus as Lord, but said that Christians never worshiped their scholars or monks. The Prophet Muhammad asked him, "Do they not forbid what Allah has permitted and do you not then forbid it (to yourselves), and do they not make permissible for you what Allah has forbidden, and do you not then make it permissible (to yourselves)?" I replied: "Certainly!"He

said: "That is how you worshiped them." (Narrated by At-Tirmidhi)