Question !

[SithDoughnut]

Interesting you should say that ..... Isaiah 45 says.....

Thus says the LORD, "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: `Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.' " Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior! They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them; The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation.

Yes, it is only those who seek Him who are promised to find Him......

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (from 2 Corinthians 4)

So God has hidden from me and then blinded me so I'll never find him?

Well then, he obviously doesn't want me to be a Christian then. I might have actually started looking for him if you hadn't pointed this out. You just saved me a lot of wasted effort there. Thanks!

 

[JJWhite]

So God has hidden from me and then blinded me so I'll never find him?

Well then, he obviously doesn't want me to be a Christian then. I might have actually started looking for him if you hadn't pointed this out. You just saved me a lot of wasted effort there. Thanks!

Whoa! I'm not a Christian, but you've gotta hold your horses there a bit, sir.

Your icon says you're athiest. I'm assuming that means you like things to make sense. That's not a bad thing. Thing is, YOU need to exert effort into learning more about things BEFORE you decide whether they make sense or not.

We have verses similar to that in Islamic Scripture too. But you see, both religions ALSO have texts that tell us how eager God is for people to turn back to him, etc. There's A LOT more, and what a person needs to do is sit down with EVERYTHING God says on the topic in front of him and then see if it makes sense. I've always found that it does to me, anyway.

The way I understand this is that this goes back to people having the will to make their own choices. God has sent Scritpure and he sends you people to help you understand the message. He does this AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN... I mean now we even thave he internet where you can find just about any information you want in a milisecond. It's so easy to go and ask people who know more about it. God has given you numerous blessings around you. Even if you just look around you, you will see the signs of God everywhere, but YOU have to want to see them. Now, what the verses up there indicate is that when God gives you chance after chance to get to know him, IF you keep insisting to turn your back on that and not pay attention, He will make it HARDER for you actually see the truth in things. This could be in terms of an entire religion, or even on a specific issue. If YOU don't care and YOU don't try, THEN God will make what YOU want easier for you and the truth harder to find. BUT, if you try to find God, and you put in the effort to look, He will most definitely assist you in that as well. He'll even make it harder for you to disbelieve. You take the first step, and God will be there for you to help guide you on the path YOU have chosen. You don't know if you're one of those people God has blinded. Always think positive and assume the best, then put in the effort, and GO!

And God knows best.

 

[candle of hope]

True. I do not like that people follow the deception of Islam that leads to Hell.

So do i .

True, I am sure that Allah would seek to destroy you more blatantly. But if you follow after Jehovah, He will protect you from Allah.

What are trying to say ?
Please . I believe in Allah swt i don't believe in what you said and i believe that Allah swt "glorious and exalted is He" is the creator of the heavens and the earth , so he's the only one who can protect us from everything ..

Peace ..

 

[JJWhite]

We're not talking about whether countries enforce it. We're talking about whether Islam enforces it. The general consensus amongst Islamic scholars is that the Hijab is mandatory.

Yes.

 

[JJWhite]

Do the majority of scholars say that Allah says that the women who don't wear it will go to hell?

Not a single one I know about anyhow.

As for me, I wear NIQAB and I LOVE it. But that's my choice.

 

[JJWhite]

The fundamentalist answer is obvious, isn't it?

If GOD said that those who seek shall find, then those who don't find anything obviously haven't really sought to begin with.

Maybe not yet. And God knows what's in people's hearts. Only He knows what they're looking for and how they're going about it. Only He knows if they care. Only He knows who will die in a state of belief. Someone could be anything, but IF HE WERE SINCERELY SEEKING (which I personally believe would lead a person to Islam, but if for some reason he did not find it despite his sincerity) then God, in His Supreme justice, will help that person die upon faith in Him or test him in the Hereafter.

They must have been pretending, or just making a half-hearted attempt. Very likely, they are too fond of sinning to *truly* desire to know God. In short, those who do not find must be evil hypocrites whom God does not desire among his flock. Clearly, they do not belong to *us*, the Chosen Ones.

The same applies to those who deconvert, of course: they obviously weren't genuine Christians to begin with, as no one who knows the gospel-truth would ever turn away from the One True Religion. We do not associate with such people - they are ungodly.

We have to stop cliquish behavior. We are all human and we are all here to help one another out. It's unlikely that I agree or disagree with any other human with 100% of things, but that's what makes the world what it is. We can't judge people's hearts. There's so much more to say about this, but I have to go. I'll try to get back to this later.

 

[Supreme]

OK. Very sad if true. Do the majority of scholars say that Allah says that the women who don't wear it will go to hell? Which is what you implied.

Oh, and did you know that the general concensus among Christian Scholars is that a man was born to a virgin roughly 2,000 years ago. And he was God.

Swings and roundabouts really. And for clarity I mean that you can't accept an unprovable statement, and criticise others for accepting an unprovable statement.

Answer me this: if something is mandatory, that means there will be consequences if it is not followed, does it not? Unless there's some sort of other bad punishment in Islam for disobedient Muslims that I'm unaware of, Hell it is.

I also am not sure what you are trying to say with the last bit of your post. We're not trying to prove anything here. We're discussing beliefs, not proof.

 

[visionary]

So God has hidden from me and then blinded me so I'll never find him?

Well then, he obviously doesn't want me to be a Christian then. I might have actually started looking for him if you hadn't pointed this out. You just saved me a lot of wasted effort there. Thanks!

Repent.. and He may be found..Revelation 3:2
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

 

[Wicked Willow]

Not a single one I know about anyhow.

As for me, I wear NIQAB and I LOVE it. But that's my choice.

*shudders*

Riddle me this: If Allah felt that feminine faces (and/or bodies) were too much of a temptation for men to bear - why don't we come with some sort of natural equipment that hides our features? If there was something so utterly dangerous about us that it might endanger the very salvation of our fellow men - surely there would be a more natural means to protect them from harm.

That said, although I feel that this kind of garb is utterly denigrating, essentially defining the female body as a sex object that must be hidden from view, I'd actually campaign for your right to wear it. But then again, I'd also campaign for nudists who just prefer not to wear clothes at all without legal harassment.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Whoa! I'm not a Christian, but you've gotta hold your horses there a bit, sir.

Your icon says you're athiest. I'm assuming that means you like things to make sense. That's not a bad thing. Thing is, YOU need to exert effort into learning more about things BEFORE you decide whether they make sense or not.

We have verses similar to that in Islamic Scripture too. But you see, both religions ALSO have texts that tell us how eager God is for people to turn back to him, etc. There's A LOT more, and what a person needs to do is sit down with EVERYTHING God says on the topic in front of him and then see if it makes sense. I've always found that it does to me, anyway.

The way I understand this is that this goes back to people having the will to make their own choices. God has sent Scritpure and he sends you people to help you understand the message. He does this AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN... I mean now we even thave he internet where you can find just about any information you want in a milisecond. It's so easy to go and ask people who know more about it. God has given you numerous blessings around you. Even if you just look around you, you will see the signs of God everywhere, but YOU have to want to see them. Now, what the verses up there indicate is that when God gives you chance after chance to get to know him, IF you keep insisting to turn your back on that and not pay attention, He will make it HARDER for you actually see the truth in things. This could be in terms of an entire religion, or even on a specific issue. If YOU don't care and YOU don't try, THEN God will make what YOU want easier for you and the truth harder to find. BUT, if you try to find God, and you put in the effort to look, He will most definitely assist you in that as well. He'll even make it harder for you to disbelieve. You take the first step, and God will be there for you to help guide you on the path YOU have chosen. You don't know if you're one of those people God has blinded. Always think positive and assume the best, then put in the effort, and GO!

And God knows best.

God blinded me because I don't believe. In order to believe in God I must see God, but I'm blind. If God wants me to see, he will let me. As he has blinded me he must not want me to see. I didn't see him even when I was a Christian, I was just following instructions - I didn't realise that for a long time.

None of what I said was particularly serious anyway. If I want to go looking for a God then the Christian/Jewish/Islamic God is pretty low on my list.

 

[hikersong]

Answer me this: if something is mandatory, that means there will be consequences if it is not followed, does it not? Unless there's some sort of other bad punishment in Islam for disobedient Muslims that I'm unaware of, Hell it is.

JJ White above says not.

As for me, I wear NIQAB and I LOVE it. But that's my choice.

Candle of Hope said not:

I don't feel depressed , and i feel comfortable with Hijab nobody forces me to wear it ..

(To which you replied:

Allah forces you to wear it. Without it, you're on a journey to Hell. I would call that 'being forced.'

I'm sure there are lots of different opinions on the matter (as there are with many christian beliefs) but I have heard many muslim women say they don't feel forced. I would tend to take them at their word. It seems the respectful thing to do. Even though I find the whole thing absurd and very sad.


And finally you said:

I also am not sure what you are trying to say with the last bit of your post. We're not trying to prove anything here. We're discussing beliefs, not proof.

I've just decided to delete a rather lengthy explanation trying to explain what I meant. Can we just let that one go.

 

[hikersong]

Deleted repeat post.

 

[hikersong]

Hm. Apologies for the double post above. The System will not let me delete or even edit it. Even though it says I have edited it. Oh well.

edit: and now it clearly has.

 

[JJWhite]

*shudders*

Riddle me this: If Allah felt that feminine faces (and/or bodies) were too much of a temptation for men to bear - why don't we come with some sort of natural equipment that hides our features? If there was something so utterly dangerous about us that it might endanger the very salvation of our fellow men - surely there would be a more natural means to protect them from harm.

You see, we don't look at it in that way at all. It might be hard for you to see it from the perspective of a culture/society you haven't experienced. We just have a different way of looking at modesty and preservation of family structure. Hijabs and Niqabs are just part of a much larger social system, one that is enjoyed by many of the women in it. It's mostly the women who have experienced system abuse (which is fairly common) that begin to oppose anything to do with the system.

I think the whole world kind of objectifies women's bodies. I mean just looking at the covers of the magazines that line the checkout aisles at the grocery stores or in almost any advertisement one sees how women's beauty is being used for all sorts of things.

Personally, in public, I feel free from being judged by my appearence beauty, and I feel respected for my character and intelligence. I realize that those same feelings might be achieved without the same level of covering, but it does feel empowering for me. I guess it takes a different mindset to see it.

One of my favorite verses of the Qur'an encourages people to travel. It implies that one is blinded by social conditioning and that through travel and exposure to different cultures and perspectives, it becomes easier for a person to rid himself/herself of social biases and accept God's truths.

I remember how when I first moved to the States about 11 years ago, I used to involuntarily shudder every time my eyes accidentally saw a woman's bear thighs, or a guy's actually . I really couldn't understand why someone would want to display themselves like that. I suppose I'm somewhat desensitized to it now, though I still don't think it's proper.

And that's my opinion.

 

[JJWhite]

Answer me this: if something is mandatory, that means there will be consequences if it is not followed, does it not? Unless there's some sort of other bad punishment in Islam for disobedient Muslims that I'm unaware of, Hell it is.

I also am not sure what you are trying to say with the last bit of your post. We're not trying to prove anything here. We're discussing beliefs, not proof.

Speaking the truth at all times is mandatory. Never saying something that could hurt someone's feelings behind their back is mandatory. A lot of things are mandatory. Wearing loose clothing and a headscarf is mandatory for women, and growing a beard (most popular opinion) and covering from around the waist to knees are mandatory for men. And the list of Islamic onligations goes on... Leaving that which is mandatory is sinful, and one MAY be punished for it. No one is perfect, and we ALL sin. No Islamic scholar I know has ever said that a person is definitely going to Hell for commiting a sin. That belief is characteristic of a group that Prophet Muhammad warned about. They act all pious, praying and fasting and reciting Qur'aan all night, so one would think they were the most righteous, but they look down upon others and declare those who sin as disbelievers and damn them to Hell. The term used for these people is 'Khawaarij"... linguistically, those who separated themselves/went away (something like that- can't find the best word in English). It is very clear from a Muslim perspective that these terrorists we see getting popular these days, for example, have at least some Khawaarij mentality. One might think they're only after non-Muslims, but what people don't realize is that those types of people are ready to declare just about anyone who doesn't agree with them an 'infidel'. So, yeah... maybe THAT type of "Muslim" would think that way, but that's not how a typical Muslim would. I encourage hijab and think it a great thing personally, but gossiping, for example, is an even greater sin than not putting a scarf on the head, which would be much more likely to send someone to Hell.

I think Christians might not understand the Islamic perspective becasue they don't view sin in the same way. Christians, or at least most of them from what I see, believe in original sin. Sin seems to me to equal Hell. Salvation is through acknowledgement that Jesus died to atone for all sins.

In Islam, it's very different. Sins may pave the way to Hell, but they do not necessarily mean that a person will go to Hell. We believe that a person has to try their best to do as much good as they can do and avoid as much bad as possible, and constantly repent and try to improve, and if God accepts (which would largely depend on things like sincerity) then THROUGH HIS MERCY <-- ultimate means of salvation (definitely not deeds alone) he/she will be admitted into Heaven.

With deeds it's like weight too... The more good choices you make, the heavier your good side will be, and the more bad choices you make, the heavier the bad side will be. So, they kind of cancel each other out. Some good things, like honoring parents, can be weighter than maybe something like picking up a piece of trash, but both carry their due weight if done sincerely for God. Same with sins. Murder weighs a lot more than calling someone a bad name, but both are bad.

Anyway, back to the clothes thing... we view hijab as an act of modesty and decency and piety. That's part of our religion. So, if a Muslim girl doesn't wear it, I believe is a sinful behavior, but we're ALL sinners, so my job is only to help encourage in her what I view as proper, and I would expect from her to help encourage me with her traits that she excels in higher than me. I know ladies who are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO generous with what they have I get teary whenever they're helping others out. Yes, they don't wear Hijab, but I see I have a lot to learn from them.

We ALL have a lot to learn from each other. It could be attitudes or knowledge or insight, but each of us has something to offer. That's why we're all here on this earth. Let's try to make the best of it.

 

[Wicked Willow]

You see, we don't look at it in that way at all. It might be hard for you to see it from the perspective of a culture/society you haven't experienced. We just have a different way of looking at modesty and preservation of family structure. Hijabs and Niqabs are just part of a much larger social system, one that is enjoyed by many of the women in it. It's mostly the women who have experienced system abuse (which is fairly common) that begin to oppose anything to do with the system.

I think the whole world kind of objectifies women's bodies. I mean just looking at the covers of the magazines that line the checkout aisles at the grocery stores or in almost any advertisement one sees how women's beauty is being used for all sorts of things.

Personally, in public, I feel free from being judged by my appearence beauty, and I feel respected for my character and intelligence. I realize that those same feelings might be achieved without the same level of covering, but it does feel empowering for me. I guess it takes a different mindset to see it.

One of my favorite verses of the Qur'an encourages people to travel. It implies that one is blinded by social conditioning and that through travel and exposure to different cultures and perspectives, it becomes easier for a person to rid himself/herself of social biases and accept God's truths.

I remember how when I first moved to the States about 11 years ago, I used to involuntarily shudder every time my eyes accidentally saw a woman's bear thighs, or a guy's actually . I really couldn't understand why someone would want to display themselves like that. I suppose I'm somewhat desensitized to it now, though I still don't think it's proper.

And that's my opinion.

It's funny that you should mention travelling and putting oneself in another society's/culture's shoes, as ethnology/cultural anthropology is one of my favourite academic pursuits, and I do feel that I'm not all that bad at gauging another culture's idiosyncrasies.

The thing is: while the insider-perspective is certainly vital to understanding (and reading about yours was certainly an enlightening experience, giving me new insights into the greater sphere of Islamic cultures), sometimes it also takes the detachment of an outsider to see beyond the structures and confines of a specific world view.

If culture's like a maze, then the insider is the one who knows every nook and cranny, and knows how to navigate within it without running into dead ends or stumbling across hidden pitfalls - and the outsider is the one looking at a map showing the whole thing as a schematic drawing. She may not be as good at actually navigating the terrain, and yet she may actually spot things in the design not readily available to a person who's immersed in it.

It is interesting that you should mention magazines, for I have used them before to demonstrate how muslims must feel when they first come to a "Western" country - and what impression they might derive from that unsettling experience.
What you must keep in mind, though, is that the objectification of the female body is a heritage Western society kept from times that were infinitely more restrictive. Barely a century ago, it would have been impossible for a proper American or European lady to reveal as much as her ankles, or to venture beyond the confines of her home without gloves. Female suffrage was virtually unheard of, female education was only gradually starting to improve (against adamant resistance from religious and conservative circles): in short, the "West" was worse than the "East" back then in many ways.
We've rid ourselves of some of those elements, but unfortunately, the way the female body is regarded hasn't changed as much as it should have, given the greater degree of permissiveness. How much this is tied to our past primness rather than our present openness becomes readily apparent when you compare American society to European society:
the USA are *much* more closely tied to their Christian past, and accordingly, their reactions to public nudity sometimes verge on the hysterical (such as in the case of arresting women for breast-feeding in public, accusing 5-year-olds of sexual abuse for cuddling against the chest of their substitute teacher, or turning Janet Jackson's pathetic deliberate nipple slip into a national scandal).

To me, the most revealing experience with regards to the human body was attending a nude beach: only then did I truly realize that there is nothing inherently sexual or objectifying about the human body. It's something we project into it, based on our cultural imprinting. And that was an immensely liberating insight.

 

[Eudaimonist]

To me, the most revealing experience with regards to the human body was attending a nude beach: only then did I truly realize that there is nothing inherently sexual or objectifying about the human body. It's something we project into it, based on our cultural imprinting. And that was an immensely liberating insight.

That was roughly my reaction as well. I recall when I was twenty years old and I was living for a few months in Florida that there was a nude beach within driving distance, and out of curiosity I went there. Sure, I'll admit that I was hoping to see nude women.

What I discovered was a complete surprise. Yes, there were nude women of all sorts, but I found that the thrill of nudity was very short-lived, and after only a few minutes I discovered that I felt very relaxed. I would have described it at the time as a "Garden of Eden feeling". The nude beach wasn't a sexual place at all. It was just very natural. All the expectations of society -- all the roles and demands -- just melted away and allowed me to relax. I have never been to a more relaxing beach.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[hikersong]

A lot of things are mandatory. Wearing loose clothing and a headscarf is mandatory for women

If it is "mandatory" under Islam then that suggests you cannot refrain from wearing it and remain a muslim. How is wearing "loose clothing and a headscarf" mandatory but wearing Niqab is your free choice (as I quoted you as saying earlier). This is contradictory.

You see, we don't look at it in that way at all. It might be hard for you to see it from the perspective of a culture/society you haven't experienced. We just have a different way of looking at modesty and preservation of family structure. Hijabs and Niqabs are just part of a much larger social system, one that is enjoyed by many of the women in it.

It seems you are suggesting that the specific dress codes that many associate with Islam are in fact a cultural phenomenon.

If you acknowledge they are cultural then it is clear that the religious code and sanctions that emerge do so out of a specific cultural background. That would suggest that many aspects of Islam that seem to be seen as mandatory, are in fact just expressions of a culture, and have nothing whatsoever to do with Allah.

 

[candle of hope]

[FONT=&quot]

The prohibition of pork just follows on from Islam's Arab roots, and it's hardly befitting that a diety would be so involved in a particular culture (ie the Middle Eastern culture) that he would prohibit a food for everyone simply because one single culture didn't eat it?

Now , I'm sure that you don't know anything about Islam ..

As for alcohol being prohibited, it amazes me how Muslims can claim Jesus as a Muslim when He drank wine on numerous occasions and even transformed water into wine.

Prophet Jesus PBUH as a Muslim didn't drink wine at all , but according to the Bible he did .

The Prophets in the Holy Qur'an were pious , righteous , great examples PBUT . Read what Allah says about them :

[/FONT]"The Messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one of them believes in God, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. They say: 'We make no distinction between one and another of His Messengers.' And they say: 'We hear, and we obey. We seek Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.'" (Al-Baqarah, 2:285)
[FONT=&quot]

What, you mean you are allowed to drink and eat pork in Islam? Then I take it all back!

No comment !

Allah forces you to wear it. Without it, you're on a journey to Hell. I would call that 'being forced.'

You really make me laugh

Umm , You are a liberal , i think you don't follow God's commandments ..

I thought i said " Nobody " . Allah SWT isn't " Nobody " He is the creator , He is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Most Compassionate the Most Merciful[/FONT][FONT=&quot], When he requested me to do something i just obey , Because he knows best , he knows what's good and what's bad for the creations ..

For example : ( the prayer ) . the prayer is obligation , every muslim must pray five times a day , The hijab is obligation as well . So when we pray 5 time a day Are we forced because Allah swt forces us to pray ?!!
Are you going to call us " being forced " ! Heh ..

Well, I'm glad you naively believe wearing a piece of cloth on your head somehow makes you safer.

Thanks for understanding me , yes i believe that ..

Because you don't know what kind of cloth it is , so it's up to you !

Every woman has a value,

Of course No , some women are like a fashion-plate seeking stares and adoration in order to gain self-esteem.

As we can see there are a lot of women who buy their bodies , women without a goal , just living for fun . Do they have a value ? No

and a man has to have the permission of every woman before they touch them.

Heheheheheh , You act like innocents ..

Have not you heard about the women who rape every day , Did men take their permission before they raped them !

That's great, I think black women are the most beautiful women.

I agree with you " Muslim women who wear Hijab are the most beautiful women " but i want to clarify one point , It's not necessary the black color , there are muslim women who choose not to wear the black color , It's okay ..

Please do.

Insh'Allah i will post the reasons in the next post ..

What else could you expect from missionary religions whose main aim is to evangelise and convert the world?

When you see the light " the true religion " you will do your best to spread it ..

There is nothing in Islam called " Missionary " we believe in something called Da'wah which means " Calling people to Islam " but we aslo believe in Allah's words .

Allah says Surah 2 :

2 :256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Which means we can not force others to change their beliefs the only thing we can do is showing other what Islam really is !

We do not pay money to poor people to embrace Islam !


Peace ..[/FONT]

 

[JJWhite]

It's funny that you should mention travelling and putting oneself in another society's/culture's shoes, as ethnology/cultural anthropology is one of my favourite academic pursuits, and I do feel that I'm not all that bad at gauging another culture's idiosyncrasies.

The thing is: while the insider-perspective is certainly vital to understanding (and reading about yours was certainly an enlightening experience, giving me new insights into the greater sphere of Islamic cultures), sometimes it also takes the detachment of an outsider to see beyond the structures and confines of a specific world view.

If culture's like a maze, then the insider is the one who knows every nook and cranny, and knows how to navigate within it without running into dead ends or stumbling across hidden pitfalls - and the outsider is the one looking at a map showing the whole thing as a schematic drawing. She may not be as good at actually navigating the terrain, and yet she may actually spot things in the design not readily available to a person who's immersed in it.

It is interesting that you should mention magazines, for I have used them before to demonstrate how muslims must feel when they first come to a "Western" country - and what impression they might derive from that unsettling experience.
What you must keep in mind, though, is that the objectification of the female body is a heritage Western society kept from times that were infinitely more restrictive. Barely a century ago, it would have been impossible for a proper American or European lady to reveal as much as her ankles, or to venture beyond the confines of her home without gloves. Female suffrage was virtually unheard of, female education was only gradually starting to improve (against adamant resistance from religious and conservative circles): in short, the "West" was worse than the "East" back then in many ways.
We've rid ourselves of some of those elements, but unfortunately, the way the female body is regarded hasn't changed as much as it should have, given the greater degree of permissiveness. How much this is tied to our past primness rather than our present openness becomes readily apparent when you compare American society to European society:
the USA are *much* more closely tied to their Christian past, and accordingly, their reactions to public nudity sometimes verge on the hysterical (such as in the case of arresting women for breast-feeding in public, accusing 5-year-olds of sexual abuse for cuddling against the chest of their substitute teacher, or turning Janet Jackson's pathetic deliberate nipple slip into a national scandal).

To me, the most revealing experience with regards to the human body was attending a nude beach: only then did I truly realize that there is nothing inherently sexual or objectifying about the human body. It's something we project into it, based on our cultural imprinting. And that was an immensely liberating insight.

From my personal belief system though, I see God as the one looking at the ENTIRE MAP and since He has BOTH the ability to see the 'big picture' AND every nook and cranny, then I feel like I should be looking to Him for directions.

I like your points though.

There's this one hadith of Prophet Muhammad where he says that there will be one main trial for every nation of people. He said that the main trial for his nation was wealth. He said that the main trial for the Children of Israel was women. Previously, I admit I thought of this largely in terms of sexual temptation, but didn't give it too much thought. In a class I recently attended though, the teacher was speculating that a major cause of any weakening of the Children of Israel was in their failure to educate their women. So,the trial was how they would care for their women, which, at least in terms of education and empowerment, they failed to do very well. I think we've gotten over that now and, thanks to God, more and more women are being educated. Now, materialism seems to be the most dominant problem, and if Prophet Muhammad's words remain true, it appears that it will remain so until the end of this world.