Question: What are the conditions for salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you ignore?

Not me. I'll address these verses.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Js 2:17

This has nothing to do with salvation. James was addressing SAVED Jews, believers. His point was that in order for others to see one's faith, one must produce works. See v.18, and note that the quote marks are misplaced. The quote involved both sentences. It makes no sense otherwise.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only Js 2:24

Are you going to argue that God needs to see one's works before they are justified? I've got a boatload of verses that teaches that we are justified by faith, without any mention of works.

So, the only real question here is "in whose eyes" the believer is justified. And that would be other people, who aren't omniscient as God is.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10

There is nothing in this vese that speaks to anything automatic. It does say that believers are created FOR good works. That's what God's purpose is in the new birth, which is the new creation mentioned in 2 Cor 5:17.

iow, good works is what believers OUGHT to do, because they were created FOR them.

What it doesn't say is that believers WILL do them.

but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 1 Tim 2:10

It should be no surprise that God wants His children to behave. But there is nothing here about salvation based on good works.

and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. 1 Tim 5:10

Again, believers are created for good works. That's what they ought to do.

They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 1 Tim 6:18

Ditto.

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, Tit 2:7

Double ditto.

who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. Tit 2:14
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. Tit 3:8
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful. Tit 3:14
Triple ditto.

Since you are unaware of the relationship between works and faith, they are two sides of the same coin

It is your opinion that is unaware of the relationship between them. They are most definitely NOT 2 sides of the same coin.

We are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT of works.

If any kind of works were involved in our salvation, that would EXCLUDE grace.

Grace and works are opposites. But you seem unaware of that fact.

You cannot have one without the other.

If this were true, there would be NO NEED of ANY command for doing good works. Yet you just quoted a number of verses that DO command good works. And you can't explain WHY the commands if faith and works go together.

The apostle James clearly wrote that faith without works if DEAD.

The Bible uses the word "dead" in a variety of ways. Literally, obviously, and figuratively as well. In the prodigal son, the father spoke of fellowship with his idiot son as being 'dead' and the son being 'lost'. It's clear from the text that the son continued to be a son throughout the parable. What was lost and dead was fellowship.

And that one is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and NOT by faith alone.

Absolutely TRUE. But justified in the eyes of others, not God.

I
I'll prove this. Read 2:14. Then read the example that James gives immediately following v.14. That would be v.15,16. The, v.17 follows about "faith being dead".

The idiot who just gave lip service to the cold and hungry people were NOT justified in THEIR eyes. They would look at that idiot as a big fat hypocrite.

Good works are the outward evidence of a believer's inward faith.

Can be. But there are many very moral people out there who do NOT have an inward faith. So works can't be the issue in salvation.

They are the result of salvation; not the cause of salvation.

If true, there would be NO NEED of any command for good works.

If discipleship does not result in good works, then faith is dead and of no effect.

No effect towards others.

That is why Jesus judges the 7 Churches in Revelation according to their works, or lack thereof. Comprende?

Can you prove what Jesus said about the 7 churches was about salvation? No, you cannot.

 

[HTacianas]

Great question!

Only those believers who are in fellowship with the Lord, through confession of sin (1 Jn 1:9) and are filled with the Spirit, through submission to Him, will bear fruit. This is divine fruit, only when done in the power of the Spirit.

Jesus taught this principle in John 15:1-7. To 'abide in Him' is to be in fellowship with Him. That is the only way to bear fruit.

Anything and everything done in the power of oneself (their flesh) is considered as used menstrual rags (filthy rags - Isa 64:6). This is the state of believers who are grieving/quenching the Spirit (Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19) and not in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1).

Sadly, what I've posted here seems to be almost unheard of among evangelical believers. Yet, I've quoted Scripture that supports my post.

Well you haven't said what the fruit is or what the reward is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well you haven't said what the fruit is or what the reward is.

These should be obvious. Bearing fruit is obedience from the power of the Holy Spirit. Reward includes all that Jesus taught from His parables, and what Paul mentioned in 2 Tim 2:12, which is "reigning with Christ". This isn't for every believer, but only those who "endured". The same principle is found in Rom 8:17, which is about "sharing in His glory", which is the same as "reigning with Him". And not to forget the mention of the difference "crowns" listed in Scripture.

 

[Oldmantook]

This has nothing to do with salvation. James was addressing SAVED Jews, believers. His point was that in order for others to see one's faith, one must produce works. See v.18, and note that the quote marks are misplaced. The quote involved both sentences. It makes no sense otherwise.

SAVED Jews are believers. So are you claiming that Jews are saved differently from Gentiles? I agree that in order to see one's faith manifested, one must produce works. I already wrote that. Why are you confused?

Are you going to argue that God needs to see one's works before they are justified? I've got a boatload of verses that teaches that we are justified by faith, without any mention of works.

So, the only real question here is "in whose eyes" the believer is justified. And that would be other people, who aren't omniscient as God is.

I already wrote that faith is not caused by works but works are the result/evidence of saving faith . Why are you confused?

There is nothing in this vese that speaks to anything automatic. It does say that believers are created FOR good works. That's what God's purpose is in the new birth, which is the new creation mentioned in 2 Cor 5:17.

iow, good works is what believers OUGHT to do, because they were created FOR them.


What it doesn't say is that believers WILL do them.

I never wrote automatic. Straw man argument by you. We are created for good works, but it is up to us whether to pursue them - not automatic.

It should be no surprise that God wants His children to behave. But there is nothing here about salvation based on good works.

Another logical fallacy proposed by you otherwise known as an argument from silence - the weakest form of argumentation. One is saved by faith alone, however works are the ongoing evidence that one is indeed saved.

It is your opinion that is unaware of the relationship between them. They are most definitely NOT 2 sides of the same coin.

We are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT of works.

If any kind of works were involved in our salvation, that would EXCLUDE grace.

Grace and works are opposites. But you seem unaware of that fact.

Opposites?? Hardly. Wrong term. Complementary more like it. Grace through faith saves. Works evidences that we are saved.

If this were true, there would be NO NEED of ANY command for doing good works. Yet you just quoted a number of verses that DO command good works. And you can't explain WHY the commands if faith and works go together.

Isn't it obvious? Good works are works of obedience to the Word and leading of the Holy Spirit are they not? Yes or no? Since we are commanded to do good works, it is disobedience on our part if we don't do them and obedience is requisite for eternal life (Heb 5:9).

The Bible uses the word "dead" in a variety of ways. Literally, obviously, and figuratively as well. In the prodigal son, the father spoke of fellowship with his idiot son as being 'dead' and the son being 'lost'. It's clear from the text that the son continued to be a son throughout the parable. What was lost and dead was fellowship.

Quite ironically, the example you cite undermines your whole argument. You eisegete the story to suit your beliefs without reading the text for what it does say. The prodigal was dead and lost but you totally ignore the fact that Jesus himself states that the prodigal was made ALIVE AGAIN in Lk 15:24,32. The prodigal did not physically die, so 'death' means spiritual death. Explain to me how someone can be made "alive again?" The only way for a person to be made alive again is to be made spiritually alive in Christ the first time when one believes and is regenerated by the Spirit. However, that believer subsequently leads a lifestyle of sinning as did the prodigal which results in him being spiritually dead. However if that person repents (as did the prodigal) and returns to the Father seeking forgiveness (as did the prodigal), the Father forgives, welcomes him back and is made ALIVE AGAIN (as did the prodigal).

I'll prove this. Read 2:14. Then read the example that James gives immediately following v.14. That would be v.15,16. The, v.17 follows about "faith being dead".

The idiot who just gave lip service to the cold and hungry people were NOT justified in THEIR eyes. They would look at that idiot as a big fat hypocrite.

In v.14 James addresses the BRETHREN. These verses are for those who are believers; not just for those who claim to be believers. "Brethren" is never used to refer to the unsaved or those who claim to be saved but are really not. Do not eisegete the text.

Can be. But there are many very moral people out there who do NOT have an inward faith. So works can't be the issue in salvation.

Red herring fallacy offered by you. We are not talking about unsaved people. James was not writing to or about unsaved people. Why would he write his epistle to the unsaved? You already acknowledged that James wrote to believing Jews. Thus works are an issue for those who are saved.

Can you prove what Jesus said about the 7 churches was about salvation? No, you cannot.

Again an argument from silence. Is the word "abortion" in the Bible? Yet I assume you know abortion is a sin? Perhaps you should brush up on your logical argumentation. Nevertheless, Jesus warned the church of Sardis not to defile their garments. He promises that those who overcome will not have their names blotted out in the book of life. That promise is only made to those who overcome. Presumably those who don't overcome, do have their names blotted out/erased from the book of life. The book of life only contains the names of saved people thus refuting your notion that Jesus' condemnation of the Churches in Revelation has nothing to do with salvation. If you believe that a believer cannot have his name removed and lose his salvation then I suggest your read until the end of Revelation where it states in Rev 22:19 "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Sam91]

I didn't particularly want to address that part of your post and skipped the next few sentences because it had the word 'lied' right next to our Saviour's name. I do not like to see that as He is Holy and His name should be held with respect. At His name all knees shall bow and He is worthy of all Glory and Honour and Praise. Blessed be His name.

John 5:24 does not say which words He was referring to and I take all words uttered by Christ Jesus as equally important and revered.

Let's look at what or Lord was saying before and after John 5:24

16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

31“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

33“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

36“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study c the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41“I do not accept glory from human beings, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God d ?

45“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

And we do nothing by ourselves either. If we are born again and believe Him we will have the love of God in our hearts. Our sights should be on the Father and also the Son. If the Son does the Father's will we also will. We won't be like the Pharisees who have ill feeling and judgement against others like they did to the Son. It isn't our place.

Jesus had just healed the man and told him to get up and walk. He then warned the man to sin no more lest worse things happen.

In John 6 He says the work of God is to believe the one He has sent.

And also explains that

“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Now I do believe Him. This is why this is also of importance... John 7:

37On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” c

And John 8:

12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

13The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

14Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

19Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”

“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” .....

21Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

22This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25“Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26“I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up a the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father. b ”

39“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would c do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”

and John 12:

24Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

47“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

13“You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

34“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 14:

12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,

0On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"This has nothing to do with salvation. James was addressing SAVED Jews, believers. His point was that in order for others to see one's faith, one must produce works. See v.18, and note that the quote marks are misplaced. The quote involved both sentences. It makes no sense otherwise."

SAVED Jews are believers. So are you claiming that Jews are saved differently from Gentiles?

No. Why would I think that?

I agree that in order to see one's faith manifested, one must produce works. I already wrote that. Why are you confused?

It seems you are confused. I'm not confused. Why do you think I'm confused.

I already wrote that faith is not caused by works but works are the result/evidence of saving faith . Why are you confused?

Please go back and read my explanation. Then you won't be confused.

I never wrote automatic. Straw man argument by you. We are created for good works, but it is up to us whether to pursue them - not automatic.

Well, good. But what you posted sure seemed to indicate that you thought good works will occur in saved people. Maybe your posting confuses people. I'm glad that you have clarified your view.

Another logical fallacy proposed by you otherwise known as an argument from silence - the weakest form of argumentation. One is saved by faith alone, however works are the ongoing evidence that one is indeed saved.

OK, let's get clear. Do you believe that a personal without works isn't saved?

Opposites?? Hardly. Wrong term. Complementary more like it. Grace through faith saves. Works evidences that we are saved.

Did you not read what I posted. There are many very moral people out there who have never believed in Christ. Do their moral works evidence anything?

Isn't it obvious? Good works are works of obedience to the Word and leading of the Holy Spirit are they not? Yes or no? Since we are commanded to do good works, it is disobedience on our part if we don't do them and obedience is requisite for eternal life (Heb 5:9).

Of course.

Quite ironically, the example you cite undermines your whole argument. You eisegete the story to suit your beliefs without reading the text for what it does say. The prodigal was dead and lost but you totally ignore the fact that Jesus himself states that the prodigal was made ALIVE AGAIN in Lk 15:24,32.

Whoa. Hold on a sec. Please re-read the parable again. Nowhere did Jesus say that the son "was made alive again", as if the story is about the new birth.

Luke 15:24 - For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Don't you realize that "was made alive again" is totally different that "is alive again"??

The reality of the parable is that the son highly offended his father by asking for his inheritance while his father was alive. In that generation, such a request basically meant this: "I wish you were dead, so I could get my share of the inheritance. But since you're not dead, just give my my cut and I'll split."

The prodigal did not physically die, so 'death' means spiritual death.

So you have only 2 defaults, huh. Too bad. The Bible uses death in other ways as well. Sexual death regarding Abraham. And it should be obvious in the prodigal parable that fellowship between father and son was totally broken, lost, and dead.

The word is used figuratively as well as literally. Literal death can refer to either physical or spiritual death.

So, can you explain the difference between relationship, and fellowship?

Explain to me how someone can be made "alive again?" The only way for a person to be made alive again is to be made spiritually alive in Christ the first time when one believes and is regenerated by the Spirit.

True. So what's to explain? We're on the same page on this one.

However, that believer subsequently leads a lifestyle of sinning as did the prodigal which results in him being spiritually dead.

Hold on again. Are you sayuing that this stupid no good son was spiritually alive before he insulted his father so highly?? Where do you get your ideas from?

However if that person repents (as did the prodigal) and returns to the Father seeking forgiveness (as did the prodigal), the Father forgives, welcomes him back and is made ALIVE AGAIN (as did the prodigal).

I've aleady called you on this one. No one was "made alive again" in this parable.

In v.14 James addresses the BRETHREN. These verses are for those who are believers; not just for those who claim to be believers.

Yes. We're on the same page again.

"Brethren" is never used to refer to the unsaved or those who claim to be saved but are really not. Do not eisegete the text.

I never even hinted that James was referring to unbelievers. I think you are confused again.

Red herring fallacy offered by you. We are not talking about unsaved people. James was not writing to or about unsaved people.

Nor did I even suggest such a thing. He wrote to saved Jews, as you noted at the beginning of your long post. So where did you go off the rails?

Why would he write his epistle to the unsaved? You already acknowledged that James wrote to believing Jews. Thus works are an issue for those who are saved.

I'm beginning to wonder if you even read my post.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"Can you prove what Jesus said about the 7 churches was about salvation? No, you cannot."

Again an argument from silence. Is the word "abortion" in the Bible? Yet I assume you know abortion is a sin? Perhaps you should brush up on your logical argumentation.

OK, I see. You CANNOT prove your claim. So you deflect by changing the subject. Slick. But no dice. The FACT is that Jesus was taking the churches (minus 2) to task for problems in them. And He was pointing out lost reward for the people in those churches.

Nevertheless, Jesus warned the church of Sardis not to defile their garments.

Yeah, He was referring to sin. That's how one defiles their garments.

He promises that those who overcome will not have their names blotted out in the book of life.

I recommend you look up 'litotes'. It's a literary device. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone described as having their names blotted out from the book of life. But if I've missed any, please direct me to the verse that says so.

That promise is only made to those who overcome.

Those aware of the meaning of the literary device know that John was emphasizing the OPPOSITE; that overcomer will be highly rewarded. Maybe you don't see being highly rewarded and recognized in heaven is the OPPOSITE of having your name blotted out of the book of life.

Presumably those who don't overcome, do have their names blotted out/erased from the book of life.

The problem here is your resumption. Let's just stick with what the Word actually says, and leave presumption out of it.

The book of life only contains the names of saved people thus refuting your notion that Jesus' condemnation of the Churches in Revelation has nothing to do with salvation. If you believe that a believer cannot have his name removed and lose his salvation then I suggest your read until the end of Revelation where it states in Rev 22:19 "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

A very common problem that I've consistently seen among the OSNAS crowd is their stunning lack of understanding of the warning against loss of reward. They seem to default to loss of salvation, even though there is NO MENTION of salvation or loss of salvation in any of the warning passages.

Just a lot of presumption going on. But no facts.

 

[Sam91]

Yes. And it seems most people misread it. They switch "with" with "to", which totally changes the meaning of the verse.

The question is: to whome does the Spirit witness TO? It ain't the believer.

John 14:

15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you:


26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"Yes. And it seems most people misread it. They switch "with" with "to", which totally changes the meaning of the verse.

The question is: to whome does the Spirit witness TO? It ain't the believer."

John 14:

15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you:

26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

These verses don't answer my question.

The answer is found in the context of Rom 8:16 -

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

So, to whom does the Spirit testify TO? The Father, of course. Along with His children, who "cry, Abba Father".

 

[Sam91]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"Yes. And it seems most people misread it. They switch "with" with "to", which totally changes the meaning of the verse.

The question is: to whome does the Spirit witness TO? It ain't the believer."

These verses don't answer my question.

The answer is found in the context of Rom 8:16 -

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

So, to whom does the Spirit testify TO? The Father, of course. Along with His children, who "cry, Abba Father".

I think that is just semantics. I'm apparently quite a picky person about word choice in day to day life but even I fail to see much of a difference there. Is that difference even in the original texts. Not having studied those I don't really know but when I've looked at one version online which is quite confusing to an unschooled person in the ancient texts and languages it seems that some of those small words are added in during translation in order to make it grammatically understandable

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"Yes. And it seems most people misread it. They switch "with" with "to", which totally changes the meaning of the verse."

I think that is just semantics.

Then, do words mean nothing?? Or are you arguing that "with" and "to" mean the same thing?? Because they surely don't mean the same thing.

I'm apparently quite a picky person about word choice in day to day life but even I fail to see much of a difference there.

Well, that's a problem for you. I explained the difference, but you have to understand the differences between the words and figure out WHY Paul used the word he did.

Is that difference even in the original texts.

Yep.

Not having studied those I don't really know but when I've looked at one version online which is quite confusing to an unschooled person in the ancient texts and languages it seems that some of those small words are added in during translation in order to make it grammatically understandable

Is this a dodge, in order to not have to face the fact that the 2 words are different and mean different things?

I recommend "biblehub.com" which gives 28 or 29 English translations of any verse you want to see.

I've done the homework for you on Rom 8:16. Disregarding the paraphrased versions, there were only 4 that used "to", and all the rest used "with".

My Greek lexicon has this meaning: to testify or bear witness together with another.

So my explanation is correct.

 

[Oldmantook]

Just a lot of presumption going on. But no facts.

I find your last statement quite amusing. Your reply does not contain a single scripture verse to back up you claims. That amounts to PRESUMPTION as you have wrote much without any scriptural backing whatsoever. Thus you have submitted your personal opinion which is fine - but unsupportable. Moreover, your logical skills take you down bunny trails. Let's deal with scripture shall we instead of merely offering your personal opinion?
You have failed to explain in Luke 14 how the prodigal was made alive AGAIN? What made him dead in the first place? What caused his death? Is his death physical or spiritual? What does "again" mean? How can someone be made alive AGAIN? Your failure to deal with the text speaks volumes. There is no difference between relationship and fellowship. Where does it specify that in Scripture?
While your at it, why don't you take a stab at Romans 8:13 and James 5:19-20 as well.

I recommend you look up 'litotes'. It's a literary device. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone described as having their names blotted out from the book of life. But if I've missed any, please direct me to the verse that says so.

Is it difficult for you to search in a concordance? After all, they're available online these days. Have you tried reading Revelation? If so, you would have noticed Rev 3:5 and Rev 22:19. And no, it's not loss of reward. Your attempt to minimize the text to fit your belief system. So those who don't have their names in the book of life are saved but only lose their reward? Yes or No?
If you take the mark of the beast, are you still saved but only lose your reward? Yes or No? Be careful how you answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I find your last statement quite amusing.

I'm glad you are so easily amused. My reply was a challenge because there was no support for your claims.

In fact, I cited James 2:18 for my support. And I quoted Luke 15:24 to prove another of my posts.

Your reply does not contain a single scripture verse to back up you claims.

Shall I assume that you don't consider either James 2:18 or Luke 15:24 as Scripture?

] That amounts to PRESUMPTION as you have wrote much without any scriptural backing whatsoever.

Well, sir, I DO believe that James 2:18 and Luke 15:24 are INSPIRED Scripture. Sorry that you don't.

Thus you have submitted your personal opinion which is fine - but unsupportable.

OK, since you're gonna throw around the "unsupportable" bomb, then go ahead and PROVE that my claims are such.

If my points are as you claim, and you have the truth, it should be easy to prove that my points are unsupportable, by stating what supports the truth and refutes my points.

Moreover, your logical skills take you down bunny trails. Let's deal with scripture shall we instead of merely offering your personal opinion?

I did, but it seems you don't consider the 2 verses I did cite/quote to be Scripture. So there is no way to argue with you. But it's your own opinion regarding James 2:18 and Luke 15:24 to be non Scripture.

You have failed to explain in Luke 14 how the prodigal was made alive AGAIN?

What I PROVED was that the narrative NEVER said he was "made alive again". That's your own opinion inserted into the narrative. I quoted 15:24 to prove my point.

What made him dead in the first place?

He wasn't dead. He highly offended his father and left. Fellowship died.

What caused his death?

He wasn't killed, which is your insinuation. Again, he NEVER DIED. But go ahead and try to prove that he did die, if you can.

Is his death physical or spiritual?

Neither. And I explained why. Didn't you read my post?

What does "again" mean?

It means a change in status back to the start of the story.

How can someone be made alive AGAIN?

Again, he wasn't ever "made alive". Fellowship was restored by his confession and repentance. I'd love to see your refutation of this fact.

Your failure to deal with the text speaks volumes.

Your failure to grasp figures of speech speaks volumes. There was neither physical or spiritual death in Jesus' story. It's just people with wild imaginations who come up with such conclusions.

What happened was that the upstart young punk offended his father by asking for his inheritance before the father died, which was tantamount to telling his father that he wished his father was physically dead, which is when the inheritance is distributed. After taking his inheritance, he left. Fellowship ended. One can say fellowship died, or fellowship was lost. But what the father said about his son after he returned was a figure of speech, not literal.

There is no difference between relationship and fellowship.

Thank you for your honesty in basically admitting that you don't know the difference between the 2. Which is obvious from your misunderstanding of the whole parable.

Once more: in a marriage, which in God's economy is PERMANENT, there may be fellowship between spouses, or NOT. When they in fellowship, there is intimacy and harmony. But, when one spouse offends the other, harmony and intimacy is GONE, or dead, or lost, and they are out of fellowship.

If you don't understand this explanation, then I can assume you've never been married, or had children (same principle), or had a close friend.

Where does it specify that in Scripture?

Seriously? A parable is a human story that reveals a spiritual principle. No one died, either physically or spiritually in the parable. But what DID occur is that fellowship between father and son WAS severed. dead, lost, etc. That's the principle.

While your at it, why don't you take a stab at Romans 8:13 and James 5:19-20 as well.

Let's try to understand the difference between relationship and fellowship. Those who don't cannot understand the spiritual life at all.

Is it difficult for you to search in a concordance?

Hardly. But my searches are in lexicons and in the Bible itself. Is that too difficult for you?

Have you tried reading Revelation?

After reading through the NT from Acts through Revelation for well over a decade, I'm way beyond "trying". And, I've taught it in my adult SS class twice over the years.

If so, you would have noticed Rev 3:5 and Rev 22:19.

Let's look at your citations.
Rev 3:5 - The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Rev 22:19 - And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Since you question my "difficulty" in searching a concordance, I will question your difficulty in searching a dictionary. Look up 'litotes'. It's a literary device. The phrase "never blot out the name of that person from the book of life" is a litotes in 3:5.

And the tree of life is IN the New Jerusalem, and the timing is eternity, after the Millennium. So everyone present on the new earth is saved. So the "tree of life" obviously IS a reward, whether you can grasp that or not.

btw, scroll back up to v.12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

But go ahead and claim v.12 isn't part of the context that includes v.19.

And no, it's not loss of reward.

That's an opinion, and not based on Scripture.

Your attempt to minimize the text to fit your belief system.

If you can't back up your opinions with evidence, please don't bother expressing them. Show me how I've "minimized the text" to fit my system. Nonsense.

So those who don't have their names in the book of life are saved but only lose their reward? Yes or No?

This question is bogus. People who don't have their names in the book of life have never been saved. But again, try to search a dictionary and look up the word 'litotes'. Learn a bit. Then Rev 3:5 will make sense. But it refers to eternal reward, and you've already shown your disbelief in eternal reward, so I wonder if you'll accept the fact that 3:5 includes a litotes.

If you take the mark of the beast, are you still saved but only lose your reward? Yes or No? Be careful how you answer.

Silly question. Those who take the mark will end up in the lake of fire.

But the real question is WHY you seem to assume that believers may take the mark.

Where do you get yur assumptions, or better, presumptions, from?

 

[Sam91]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"Yes. And it seems most people misread it. They switch "with" with "to", which totally changes the meaning of the verse."

Then, do words mean nothing?? Or are you arguing that "with" and "to" mean the same thing?? Because they surely don't mean the same thing.


Well, that's a problem for you. I explained the difference, but you have to understand the differences between the words and figure out WHY Paul used the word he did.


Yep.


Is this a dodge, in order to not have to face the fact that the 2 words are different and mean different things?

I recommend "biblehub.com" which gives 28 or 29 English translations of any verse you want to see.

I've done the homework for you on Rom 8:16. Disregarding the paraphrased versions, there were only 4 that used "to", and all the rest used "with".

My Greek lexicon has this meaning: to testify or bear witness together with another.

So my explanation is correct.

Yh I checked it out on Biblehub earlier after I posted. Some translations use the word 'to'. More translations use 'with' or a word like 'together'.

But I didn't amend my post as when it boils down to the difference between 'to' or 'with' in a verse it becomes a little like missing the woods (forest) for seeing the trees. I'm sure there are better things we can be doing with our time.

Have a blessed day.

(Edit: I didn't quote or mention Romans using either word btw. I cut and posted 2 bible verses from possibly John 14 which you said were irrelevant to the point you wanted to make. Let's just leave it at this... I'm feeling ill anyway)

 

[Oldmantook]

Silly question. Those who take the mark will end up in the lake of fire.

But the real question is WHY you seem to assume that believers may take the mark.

Where do you get yur assumptions, or better, presumptions, from?

Why don't you bother to just read the text instead of continuing to offer your personal opinions which I have no interest in? Rev 14:12 exhorts that SAINTS a.k.a. believers to keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus right after the verses which warn about taking the mark in Rev 14:9-11. In the midst of persecution and whether to take the mark, the saints must persevere.
So AGAIN, I ask YOU will YOU still be saved IF YOU take the mark. Simple question. Yes or No?

And the tree of life is IN the New Jerusalem, and the timing is eternity, after the Millennium. So everyone present on the new earth is saved. So the "tree of life" obviously IS a reward, whether you can grasp that or not.

btw, scroll back up to v.12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

But go ahead and claim v.12 isn't part of the context that includes v.19.

News flash! FYI the reward is eternal life!

This question is bogus. People who don't have their names in the book of life have never been saved. But again, try to search a dictionary and look up the word 'litotes'. Learn a bit. Then Rev 3:5 will make sense. But it refers to eternal reward, and you've already shown your disbelief in eternal reward, so I wonder if you'll accept the fact that 3:5 includes a litotes.

Your answer is bogus. You proffer "litotes" where the text is not an understatement only in order to shoe horn into your belief system. One cannot ERASE or BLOT OUT names from the book of life that were never written in there to begin with.

After reading through the NT from Acts through Revelation for well over a decade, I'm way beyond "trying". And, I've taught it in my adult SS class twice over the years.

You may want to try reading it for what it says instead of what you think it says - particularly for the benefit or your SS class.

Hardly. But my searches are in lexicons and in the Bible itself. Is that too difficult for you?

No, as I graduated from seminary with honors or high honors. Can't remember exactly since it was long ago but thanks for asking!

"Can you prove what Jesus said about the 7 churches was about salvation? No, you cannot."

I already wrote about being blotted out from the book of life which you dismiss as a litote where nothing in the text indicates that. Moreover, Rev 3:23 is a verse often cited in evangelizing the unsaved. Yet, in its proper context it is directed to the church at Laodicea warning them of their lukewarmness - not written to unbelievers. Jesus commands them to be zealous and repent (v.19). So if someone doesn't open the door of their heart to Jesus are they still saved? Or do you suppose that they were never believers in the first place? If you answer never believers, then how do you reconcile your answer with Rom 8:13 and Js 5:19-20?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yh I checked it out on Biblehub earlier after I posted. Some translations use the word 'to'. More translations use 'with' or a word like 'together'.

I gave you my lexicon's rendering of the Greek word. It means "together with". So, who's the "with"? It's the believer. As I showed from the context.

But I didn't amend my post as when it boils down to the difference between 'to' or 'with' in a verse it becomes a little like missing the woods (forest) for seeing the trees. I'm sure there are better things we can be doing with our time.

I prefer to be accurate as to what Scripture actually means. And there is a huge difference between "to" and "with" in Rom 8:16.

If Paul used the word for "to us" rather than "with us", the meaning is that the Spirit witnesses TO the believer.

However, Paul used the word "with us" to mean that the Spirit witnesses with the believer. If you don't see a meaningful difference here, all I can say is "wow".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why don't you bother to just read the text instead of continuing to offer your personal opinions which I have no interest in?

Just as I've no interest in your opinions, which I noted in my previous post.

Rev 14:12 exhorts that SAINTS a.k.a. believers to keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus right after the verses which warn about taking the mark in Rev 14:9-11. In the midst of persecution and whether to take the mark, the saints must persevere.

Since you have indicated that you don't believe in eternal reward, I doubt you'll accept my view about this, but believers who don't persevere will no doubt be removed from life via God's divine discipline of physical death, as Paul noted in 1 Cor 5:5 and 11:30 and even in ch 10, regarding the Exodus generation. So taking the mark won't be an issue for unfaithful believers because by the time the mark is implemented during the Tribulation, there will have been a great portion of the population wiped out already, and that will include unfaithful believers.

So AGAIN, I ask YOU will YOU still be saved IF YOU take the mark. Simple question. Yes or No?

I already answered your bogus question. Didn't you read it? Even so, just scroll up a bit and my explanation answers your theory.

News flash! FYI the reward is eternal life!

I figured that. Well, the REAL news flash (not fake news) is that the definition of a reward means something EARNED. Is eternal life EARNED? Of course NOT. It's described as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. So your theory is totally unbiblical.

Those who think salvation and eternal life are rewards, turn salvation into a works system.

Your answer is bogus. You proffer "litotes" where the text is not an understatement only in order to shoe horn into your belief system.

So you didn't understand what a litotes is. Well, I tried. You are free to believe whatever your fantasy is.

[WUOTE] One cannot ERASE or BLOT OUT names from the book of life that were never written in there to begin with.[/QUOTE]
Go ahead and take Rev 3:5 literally. I don't care. I know better.

Don't you know that Jesus said recipients of eternal life, which is on the basis of faith alone, per John 5:24 and 6:47, shall never perish, per John 10:28?

So, do the math. If any recipient of eternal life ever did perish, then what Jesus said is NOT TRUE. Is that what you think of what He said?

You may want to try reading it for what it says instead of what you think it says - particularly for the benefit or your SS class.

This has nothing to do with my class. It has everything to do with reconciling all of Scripture. If your theories were correct, then the Bible is contradicted.

I reject such reckless ideas. Jesus said those given eternal life shall never perish.

And Jesus said those who believe possess (present tense) eternal life. Put all that together and from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life and shall never perish.

So, from the MOMENT of belief in Christ, the believer is eternally secure.

No, as I graduated from seminary with honors or high honors. Can't remember exactly since it was long ago but thanks for asking!

So, your seminary taught you that salvation can be lost???!!! Sheesh.

I already wrote about being blotted out from the book of life which you dismiss as a litote where nothing in the text indicates that.

Maybe you really didn't search a dictionary and learn the meaning and use of a litotes.

If you had, you would have known that "not blot out your name" is a double negative that means a positive. The on-line dictionaries even give a list of examples of litotes.

But never mind. Your mind is already made up. I explained Rev 3:5, which uses a litotes, and since the litotes prevents your misunderstanding of the verse, you just dismiss it out of hand.

Why can't you find ANY example in the Bible of someone who's name WAS blotted out of the book of life? Huh? If that were possible, how come there are NO more verses about it, and NO examples of it?

Moreover, Rev 3:23 is a verse often cited in evangelizing the unsaved. Yet, in its proper context it is directed to the church at Laodicea warning them of their lukewarmness - not written to unbelievers. Jesus commands them to be zealous and repent (v.19). So if someone doesn't open the door of their heart to Jesus are they still saved?

You cite 3:23, but you probably meant 3:20. I have never believed that verse is about unbelievers. It's obviously about fellowship. And the answer to your question is yes. Once saved always saved. Or Once a Son, Always a Son.

Or do you suppose that they were never believers in the first place? If you answer never believers, then how do you reconcile your answer with Rom 8:13 and Js 5:19-20?

Since you don't seem to believe in eternal reward, or divine discipline that includes physical death, it is obvious that you have to default to loss of salvation, even though none of the verses even mentions salvation, or loss of it.

Here's a challenge for you. Find me the most clear verse in the Bible that teaches that salvation can be lost. By that, I mean wording that can't be misunderstood. I'm not demanding "certain words", but that the meaning is absolutely clear.

That means leave out all parables, and obvious figures of speech. Give me your best single verse that plainly teaches that salvation can be lost.

However, note that if you succeed in doing so, you'll get the prize for proving the Bible internally contradictory, since Jesus said in plain language that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

 

[Oldmantook]

Since you don't seem to believe in eternal reward, or divine discipline that includes physical death, it is obvious that you have to default to loss of salvation, even though none of the verses even mentions salvation, or loss of it.

Here's a challenge for you. Find me the most clear verse in the Bible that teaches that salvation can be lost. By that, I mean wording that can't be misunderstood. I'm not demanding "certain words", but that the meaning is absolutely clear.

That means leave out all parables, and obvious figures of speech. Give me your best single verse that plainly teaches that salvation can be lost.

However, note that if you succeed in doing so, you'll get the prize for proving the Bible internally contradictory, since Jesus said in plain language that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

It's quite apparent that you won't change mind and vice-versa which is fine as we can agree to disagree thus no sense for me to reply to all of your comments. However, I already provided you with two clear passages which do indeed indicate loss of salvation; i.e. spiritual death which you simply ignored and made no effort to explain away. May I infer that you are at a loss to deal with them or you perceive that they refer to physical death? The sheep who never perish are only those who LISTEN and FOLLOW (Jn 10:27). Explain away Rom 8:13 and Js 5:19-20 if you may.

 

[klutedavid]

How many, and what are they?

A very good question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's quite apparent that you won't change mind and vice-versa which is fine as we can agree to disagree thus no sense for me to reply to all of your comments. However, I already provided you with two clear passages which do indeed indicate loss of salvation; i.e. spiritual death which you simply ignored and made no effort to explain away.

There are no passgaes that "do indeed" indicate loss of salvation. That's just your own personal interpretation of them. Do either of them even mention salvation? No.

Or loss of salvation? No.

May I infer that you are at a loss to deal with them or you perceive that they refer to physical death?

Go ahead and quote them again, and I'll exegete them for you.

The sheep who never perish are only those who LISTEN and FOLLOW (Jn 10:27).

Nice try. Now, show the EXACT words in v.27 that form a condition for "which sheep" will never perish. I know that you cannot do that, because there are NO SUCH WORDS that say that.

v.28 is a straightforward statement by Jesus of who shall never perish. It's those He gives eternal life. And He previously said who gets eternal life.

John 5:24 and 6:47 very clearly and plainly say that those who believe HAVE (as in current possession) eternal life.

So, connect the dots. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. Jesus gives eternal life. So, it is to believers that Jesus gives eternal life; not just certain sheep.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. And from John 10:28, they shall never perish.

THE most clear verse in the Bible on eternal security.

Explain away Rom 8:13 and Js 5:19-20 if you may.

No one needs to "explain away" either verse. And I did, btw. Did you miss it?

 

[Oldmantook]

There are no passgaes that "do indeed" indicate loss of salvation. That's just your own personal interpretation of them. Do either of them even mention salvation? No.

Or loss of salvation? No.

Argument from silence - weakest form of argumentation proposed by you. "Abortion" ain't in Scripture either but I don't have to tell you that it's wrong. I suggest you brush up on logical fallacies.

Go ahead and quote them again, and I'll exegete them for you.

I cited Rom 8:13 and Js 5:19-20. Why are you avoiding them? As a Sunday School teacher you should be able to handle it.

Nice try. Now, show the EXACT words in v.27 that form a condition for "which sheep" will never perish. I know that you cannot do that, because there are NO SUCH WORDS that say that.

The sheep who never perish are those who are LISTENING and FOLLOWING. Those sheep who choose not to listen and follow are not privy to the promises of vs. 28-29.

John 5:24 and 6:47 very clearly and plainly say that those who believe HAVE (as in current possession) eternal life.

Are you familiar with the Greek? It would help to inform you accordingly. In Jn 5:24 akouōn translated as "hears" is a present tense participle thus more accurately translated as "hearing." Pisteuōn translated as "believe" is also a present tense participle more accurately translated as "believing." Likewise, echei translated as "has" is also a present tense participle. All of these words in the Greek are in the present tense denoting action that is ongoing and continuous. Thus this verse should more accurately read: Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me, he is having eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
The possession of eternal life is not only based upon a past action made in a moment of time. Contrary to your notion, this verse states that one must be continually hearing and be continually believing/trusting and as one continues to do so, one possesses eternal life. And as a result of those habitual actions, one has passed from death to life.
In the book, Life in the Son, Shank wrote the following:

Contrary to the assumption of many, John 5:24 does not present a privileged position, which, once attained, is forever irrevocable. Quite to the contrary, our Savior's Words depict a privileged position directly governed by the specific condition of habitually hearing and believing. Jesus declares that the happy circumstance of deliverance from present condemnation and of standing passed out of death into life is the privilege only of such as habitually hear His Word and believe the Father. It is only on the basis of a present hearing and believing that one shares the eternal life of God and enjoys deliverance from present condemnation and spiritual death. (Page 61; 1989).

The same present tenses apply to John 6:47 also which nullifies your belief.

So, connect the dots. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. Jesus gives eternal life. So, it is to believers that Jesus gives eternal life; not just certain sheep.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. And from John 10:28, they shall never perish.

THE most clear verse in the Bible on eternal security.

Clear to you because evidently you do not know the Greek and worse yet I assume you teach your Sunday School class what you believe? We are all fallible creatures. What if you or I are wrong? If we are wrong, then we have the responsibility to make sure what we believe is scripturally accurate not only for ourselves but so that we do not teach incorrect doctrine. I'll make it easier for you to understand the passage.
John 10:
27 My sheep hear [present tense] my voice, and I know [present tense] them, and they follow [present tense] me. 28 I give them [the group in verse 27 that is persevering in the present] eternal life, and they [the group in verse 27 that is persevering in the present] will never perish, and no one will snatch them [the group in verse 27 that is persevering in the present] out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them [the group in verse 27 that is persevering in the present] to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them [the group in verse 27 that is persevering in the present] out of the Father’s hand.

Thus Jn 10:27-29 exactly parallels Jn 5:24; 6:47 - all of which specify the present tense as being requisite for eternal life. Jesus requires perseverance (hearing, believing, following) in order to be saved. This conclusion is not an abstract theological deduction. All credible English translations grammatically affirm the necessity to persevere in the faith for John 5:24. The requirement to persevere is found in other passages of Scripture especially within John's Gospel which ironically you have cited to support your belief - when in actuality according to the Greek grammar - it does not.