Question: What are the conditions for salvation?

[Oldmantook]

All you did was to show his own inconsistency because he never described the present tense and an action that MUST BE continued in order for the results of that action to continue.

News Flash. He wrote CONTINUALLY BELIEVES. Is that too hard to comprehend?

All sympathy should be on those, like you, who have a 'STRINGS ATTACHED' salvation.

If I'm wrong, nothing wrong with living a sanctified life. If you're wrong, you may lose your salvation. I feel quite comfortable with my view. Thank you!

The problem with your fantasy here is that I'm not incorrect. Actually, how are you going to feel when you enter eternity and THEN realize that you weren't even close to being correct?

Believe as you wish! We eventually find out won't we?

Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Do you know what the "it" refers to?

Of course it refers to salvation. Salvation is by faith. But Paul in this verse in referencing Israel is referring to works of the law which never saved anyone. The great error in your logic is that you conflate works of the law with obedience to the Word/Spirit which is never condemned in the entire Bible. Works or obedience demonstrate that we are saved. But apparently that goes over you head.

That's what Arminians have done to God's grace. They have trampled grace under foot.

Heb 10:29 - How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Your view tramples grace underfoot! Can't you read v.26??
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
You have stated that all sins are forgiven but apparently you forgot to include this verse. You have quite the knack for citing verses out of context that don't actually support your view.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jn 6:47, 5:24, 3:18, 11:26
Believing Jesus is the conviction that what He says is true. If I believe in Him, according to what He said,then I have everlasting life. I will not be condemned. I will never die spiritually. I have passed from death to life.
As Abraham was fully convinced that what God had promised He was able to perform, so to I believe that what Jesus said is true for those who believe in Him He is also able to perform. Eternal life, according to Jesus is a present possession to those who believe. Not probationary life. Not temporary life. Eternal life that begins the moment you believe. No works. No promise of performance. No rituals. No hoops. No kidding.

When you read John 6:47, you also have to read John 6:53 that says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." (John 6:53). Jesus said in two chapters previously the following, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34). We are told that not everyone who says unto Him, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21). The will of God (i.e. God the Father) is our sanctification (See: 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

When you read John 5:24, you have to also look at the words "he that heareth my words" (meaning: He that obeys my words) will not perish and has crossed from death unto life.

When you read John 3:18, you also have to look at the "Condemnation" in John 3:19-21. It says in verse 20 that all who do evil hate the light. The light is Jesus. Obviously a person who hates Jesus is not going to go to Heaven.

When you read John 11:26, keep reading and you will run into John 12:48 that says, "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

What words of Jesus can we not receive that can judge us on the last day?

Words like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, and Luke 10:25-28 can judge us on the last day if we do not receive these words by Jesus. For if we ignore His warnings on how certain sins can destroy our souls or if we refuse to believe that His commands do not play a part in eternal life, we are going to be judged by Jesus in a not so good way. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that if anyone does not hear (obeys) that prophet (JESUS), they will be destroyed. Matthew 7:26-27 says if any man does not do what He (Jesus) says, they are a like a fool who built their house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How many, and what are they?

There are two conditions on our part to be saved. We need to cooperate with God's plan of salvation for our lives. These two processes of salvation are Justification, and Sanctification. To learn more about them, check out this thread at CF here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

You have to be a sinner...

And there are things that God must choose to do to accomplish his purposes ( be your God, and cause you to be His people):

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."




In Him,

Bill

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day,

You have to be a sinner...

And there are things that God must choose to do to accomplish his purposes ( be your God, and cause you to be His people):

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."




In Him,

Bill

Nope. You don't have to be a sinner. First, the passage you quote does not say that. Second, see: Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Hebrews 12:14.

In addition, Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

 

[FreeGrace2]

News Flash. He wrote CONTINUALLY BELIEVES. Is that too hard to comprehend?

The verb for 'believe' doesn't mean continually believe. It means to believe RIGHT NOW, or CURRENTLY. The action can be continuous or momentary. If you have his book, read all of it, not just pick a single sentence that you like.

If I'm wrong, nothing wrong with living a sanctified life.

Excuse me. Your view of salvation is with "strings attached". Rom 6:11 indicates adding works to the work of grace (salvation) means there is NO grace.

Since the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, you are on quicksand.

If you're wrong, you may lose your salvation.

Why would I? Why do you think I'm living in sin? Actually, since the Bible says salvation is by grace and not by works, how do you know that you are saved even now?

Rom 11:5,6
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Your "strings attached" destroys all sense of grace. And since salvation is by grace, and you have added strings attached, Rom 11:6 indicates that your view isn't even salvific.

I feel quite comfortable with my view. Thank you!

So, you're comfortable with removing GRACE from salvation then.

Believe as you wish! We eventually find out won't we?

No. I won't do that. I believe what the Bible SAYS, unlike yourself. And I already know, so I don't have to wait to find out, as you seem to think.

Of course it refers to salvation. Salvation is by faith.

You don't know or understand Eph 2:8. It doesn't say salvation is by faith.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—"

It is BY GRACE that one is saved, which is through faith. And this salvation is a gift from God.

And everyone knows that a "gift" with strings attached is NO GIFT AT ALL.

Your view tramples grace underfoot! Can't you read v.26??

I just proved the opposite in my last post. But apparently you didn't bother reading it.

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
You have stated that all sins are forgiven but apparently you forgot to include this verse.

The problem STILL lies directly with your unbiblical doctrine. You think Christ only died for past sins, whatever that means.

Well, you don't know Hebrews then. In ch 7 and ch 10 the words "once for all" are used in reference to His sacrifice for sins.

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

These verses show that IF the animal sacrifice actually "made perfect" the worshipers, the sacrifices would have stopped being offered. However, they didn't do that. And the contrast is with Christ's sacrifice.

3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins.
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Right here, in black and white. One sacrifice for sins "for all time". So don't tell me about what sins are covered by Christ's sacrifice.

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The red words refer to Christ's SINGLE sacrifice for sins.
The blue words refer to the result for believers; being made perfect FOREVER.

So, explain why the writer wrote "FOREVER" given your 'past sins' theory?

The green words refer to the process of spiritual growth of believers.

However, the point is that by ONE sacrifice for sins "once for all", believers are "MADE PERFECT FOREVER".

Anyone can deny the clear words of Scripture, but the truth is the truth.

You have quite the knack for citing verses out of context that don't actually support your view.

That's probably the cheapest defense possible. When you can't refute someone else, you simply claim they take verses out of context.

Yeah, right.

I've just given you a primer on Hebrews and Christ's ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice for sins.

You quoted v.26. However, given all the verses above that I've quoted, there is one more to consider, which gives contextual meaning to v.26.

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

For the believer, all sins have been forgiven, so there is NO LONGER any reason for another sacrifice for sin.

Now. v.26 makes sense:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

The issue here is one of discipline. We know this because of the next verse:
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Yeah, yeah, we have the word "fire". And I know that Arminians always default to hell's fire when they come to "fire". But the word is used throughout Scripture to indicate God's judgment that includes temporal judgment. Only when adjectives like "eternal" does 'fire' refer to hell/lake of fire.

1 Cor 3:15 is one example of 'fire' not being hell/lake of fire, obviously.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here, the person "suffers loss", which is also a default by Arminians for loss of salvation, but they will "yet be saved", so there goes your default doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are two conditions on our part to be saved.

Wrong. Only one. Maybe you strongly disagree with Paul but read this:

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Red words refer to the question of HOW to be saved.
Blue words refer to the result of fulfilling the HOW to be saved.

Where do you see your 'STRINGS ATTACHED' theology here?

We need to cooperate with God's plan of salvation for our lives.

Your strings attached salvation will get NO ONE saved.

 

[Oldmantook]

The verb for 'believe' doesn't mean continually believe. It means to believe RIGHT NOW, or CURRENTLY. The action can be continuous or momentary. If you have his book, read all of it, not just pick a single sentence that you like.

It means at the time, one must be believing. It is a snapshot at any moment of time that one must be believing or have belief. At any moment of time one can also choose to no longer believe. Thus if a believer no longer chooses to believe in the future and falls away from the faith, he is no longer saved. He did believe in the past but he is now, no longer believing. Comprende?

Excuse me. Your view of salvation is with "strings attached". Rom 6:11 indicates adding works to the work of grace (salvation) means there is NO grace.

Since the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, you are on quicksand.

Wrong. Read your Bible. Becoming saved is through God's grace alone. But God's grace also enables the believer through the indwelling Spirit to obey God. Ironically, you refer to quicksand but conveniently forget Jesus' words in Matt 7 about hearing his words but not doing them is akin to building one's house on sand. I guess Jesus' words in Matt 7 were only suggestions and not commands?
Also your quote of Rom 6:11 is off-base. The word for "reckon" is logizesthe which is a present tense verb indicating ongoing action; not just a one-time moment in the past.

Why would I? Why do you think I'm living in sin? Actually, since the Bible says salvation is by grace and not by works, how do you know that you are saved even now?

I don't know whether you're living in sin. Try reading 1 John as it contains numerous examples for us to know if we're saved. I'll give you a head start:
1 Jn 2:5 But whoever may keep His word, truly in him the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6The one claiming to abide in Him ought also walk just as in the same way that He walked.
2:9The one claiming to be in the light and hating his brother is in the darkness even until now. 10The one loving his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11But the one hating his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness; and he knows not where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
2:29If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
This small sampling shows that actions on our part demonstrate that we are saved. If we do not practice righteousness, it demonstrates that we are not saved. Plain English but in your belief system, you simply dismiss them as "strings attached."

Your "strings attached" destroys all sense of grace. And since salvation is by grace, and you have added strings attached, Rom 11:6 indicates that your view isn't even salvific.

You are prone to reading out-of-context. In Rom 11 Paul is referring to Israel. "Works" refers to works of the Law. Works of the Law never saved anyone. Comprende?

So, you're comfortable with removing GRACE from salvation then.

Nope to your straw man argument. Salvation is only through God's grace.

No. I won't do that. I believe what the Bible SAYS, unlike yourself. And I already know, so I don't have to wait to find out, as you seem to think.

Nope. You believe what you THINK the Bible says instead of what it actually says. Vast difference.

You don't know or understand Eph 2:8. It doesn't say salvation is by faith.

It is by grace through faith.

The problem STILL lies directly with your unbiblical doctrine. You think Christ only died for past sins, whatever that means.

I quoted you 2 scriptures which directly state Jesus' propitiation for sin is specifically for past sins. You ignored them.

Well, you don't know Hebrews then. In ch 7 and ch 10 the words "once for all" are used in reference to His sacrifice for sins.

Of course Jesus died once for all sins. However, He did not die for sins that believers do not repent of. Habitual sin demonstrates that a believer has not repented of sin since he keeps practicing that sin. John wrote that those believers that practice sin are of the devil (1 Jn 3:8). Paul described the gospel message that he himself preached: First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds (Acts 26:20).
But according to you - these are just - "strings attached." Go ahead and believe as you wish!

However, the point is that by ONE sacrifice for sins "once for all", believers are "MADE PERFECT FOREVER".

What?? The verse does not state believers are made perfect forever. The Son is made perfect forever. Big difference!

1 Cor 3:15 is one example of 'fire' not being hell/lake of fire, obviously.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here, the person "suffers loss", which is also a default by Arminians for loss of salvation, but they will "yet be saved", so there goes your default doctrine.

I'm not an Arminian, I'm a Christian Universalist so the builder will suffer loss of salvation but he/she will eventually escape through the flames. Where do you think the flames are?? The only reference to flames in respect to soteriology that I know of are in the Lake of Fire. Believers suffer the loss of their salvation and end up in the LOF - yet will be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It means at the time, one must be believing.

And that's all it means. At the MOMENT one is given eternal life, the recipient must be believing.

It is a snapshot at any moment of time that one must be believing or have belief. At any moment of time one can also choose to no longer believe. Thus if a believer no longer chooses to believe in the future and falls away from the faith, he is no longer saved.

The present does NOT mean that. And you haven't proven anything.

He did believe in the past but he is now, no longer believing. Comprende?

What you obviously don't comprende is what Jesus said and meant in John 10:28.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. So your theory is refuted by Jesus.

Becoming saved is through God's grace alone. But God's grace also enables the believer through the indwelling Spirit to obey God.

Yes He does. However, there is nothing automatic about the power of the Holy Spirit. Haven't you read the command to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. It should be obvious that the commands are directed at believers.

Ironically, you refer to quicksand but conveniently forget Jesus' words in Matt 7 about hearing his words but not doing them is akin to building one's house on sand.

I haven't ignored anything. Any believer who does that will experience disaster in their live. There was NOTHING about loss of salvation in Matt 7.

I guess Jesus' words in Matt 7 were only suggestions and not commands?

Oh, they are commands, all right. But show me that commands regarding behavior and/or lifestyle result in salvation or loss of salvation.

You can't do that.

Also your quote of Rom 6:11 is off-base. The word for "reckon" is logizesthe which is a present tense verb indicating ongoing action; not just a one-time moment in the past.

So what? It's a command as well. Why do you perseverate on "on-going action"? The present tense doesn't mean that on-going action is necessary in order for the RESULTS of such action to continue. That's a fantasy.

I don't know whether you're living in sin. Try reading 1 John as it contains numerous examples for us to know if we're saved. I'll give you a head start:
1 Jn 2:5 But whoever may keep His word, truly in him the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6The one claiming to abide in Him ought also walk just as in the same way that He walked.
2:9The one claiming to be in the light and hating his brother is in the darkness even until now. 10The one loving his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11But the one hating his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness; and he knows not where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
2:29If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
This small sampling shows that actions on our part demonstrate that we are saved. If we do not practice righteousness, it demonstrates that we are not saved. Plain English but in your belief system, you simply dismiss them as "strings attached."

Eph 2:8,9 destroys your strings attached salvation. We are saved by grace (no works) through faith, and NOT of works. Paul noted twice the issue that salvation does NOT include any kind of works.

You are prone to reading out-of-context. In Rom 11 Paul is referring to Israel. "Works" refers to works of the Law. Works of the Law never saved anyone. Comprende?

I see you love to show your limited understanding of Spanish. Nice. However, what you DON'T comprehend at all is that IF 11:29 doesn't apply to the specifically described gifts of the Holy Spirit and eternal life, then Paul would have SAID SO in v.29. Because in that same epistle prior to 11:29 he mentioned that eternal life is a gift of God in 6:23 and that the Holy Spirit is "given to us" in 5:5.

Salvation is only through God's grace.

Then give up your unbiblical strings attached salvation.

You believe what you THINK the Bible says instead of what it actually says. Vast difference.

Nonsense. You're practicing transference and projection.

I quoted you 2 scriptures which directly state Jesus' propitiation for sin is specifically for past sins. You ignored them.

And I noted that Christ's sacrifice for sin is described as "once for ALL" in Heb 7 and 10.

Heb 7:27 - Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 - He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

This verse specifically refers to "eternal redemption" based on a "once for all" sacrifice.

Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If this isn't clear enough for you, then there's no use in further discussion.

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

How is is possible that "we have been made HOLY" through the sacrifice of Christ ONCE FOR ALL?

Of course Jesus died once for all sins. However, He did not die for sins that believers do not repent of.

You need to study these 2 sentences of yours until you realize just how contradictory they are. If He died for all sins (1st sentence), then it is impossible for Him to "not die for sins unrepented of".

So, you have just proven that your strings attached theology is also contradicted.

Habitual sin demonstrates that a believer has not repented of sin since he keeps practicing that sin. John wrote that those believers that practice sin are of the devil (1 Jn 3:8). Paul described the gospel message that he himself preached: First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds (Acts 26:20).
But according to you - these are just - "strings attached." Go ahead and believe as you wish!

What?? The verse does not state believers are made perfect forever. The Son is made perfect forever. Big difference!

You are misreading verses again.

Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Unbelievable. It clearly SAYS that believers are "made perfect forever". And the verse tells us HOW they are: "for by one sacrifice".

I'm not an Arminian, I'm a Christian Universalist so the builder will suffer loss of salvation but he/she will eventually escape through the flames. Where do you think the flames are?? The only reference to flames in respect to soteriology that I know of are in the Lake of Fire. Believers suffer the loss of their salvation and end up in the LOF - yet will be saved.

This is more screwed up than anything else you've posted!!

The Bible calls the LOF the "second death". Yet you claim there will be believers who end up in the second death, "yet will be saved".

My understanding of "universalism" is that everyone will ultimately be saved.

1 Cor 3:15 doesn't come close to supporting that silly idea. So, where does it come from?

 

[Oldmantook]

And that's all it means. At the MOMENT one is given eternal life, the recipient must be believing.

At any given moment - PAST, PRESENT or FUTURE. If at the moment of believing is only a one-time instance in the past, then the aorist tense is used. The aorist tense is not used in Jn 3:16.

The present does NOT mean that. And you haven't proven anything.

All you have done is deny. You have not explained explain why. Hardy convincing. Care to come up with one??

What you obviously don't comprende is what Jesus said and meant in John 10:28.
Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. So your theory is refuted by Jesus.

Broken record. What you don't understand is Jn 10:28 is predicated on v.27 and applies only to those sheep who are listening and following, so your theory is refuted by Jesus.

Yes He does. However, there is nothing automatic about the power of the Holy Spirit. Haven't you read the command to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. It should be obvious that the commands are directed at believers.

Indeed and only those believers who obey have eternal life (Heb 5:9). Thanks for proving my point.

Eph 2:8,9 destroys your strings attached salvation. We are saved by grace (no works) through faith, and NOT of works. Paul noted twice the issue that salvation does NOT include any kind of works.

In Acts 26:20 Paul described the gospel that he preached as containing WORKS that demonstrate repentance. I prefer to believe the gospel that Paul preached in contradiction to yours.

I haven't ignored anything. Any believer who does that will experience disaster in their live. There was NOTHING about loss of salvation in Matt 7.
Oh, they are commands, all right. But show me that commands regarding behavior and/or lifestyle result in salvation or loss of salvation.

You can't do that.

Perhaps you ought to read it. V.21 which states that doing the will of the Father is necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. But by your standard that would mean "too many strings attached." Why don't you tell that to Jesus?

Nonsense. You're practicing transference and projection.

Nonsense. Your practicing counter transference.

And I noted that Christ's sacrifice for sin is described as "once for ALL" in Heb 7 and 10.

Why do you misread the verse?? There is no mention of sin in this verse at all
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Christ's sacrifice was one-time only negating the need for continual animal sacrifice. Thus we are made holy via His one-time sacrifice however we are obligated to remain holy by living an obedient life. Have you not bothered to read the whole chapter?
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:26
No sacrifice remaining means no forgiveness, meaning no eternal life.

see you love to show your limited understanding of Spanish. Nice. However, what you DON'T comprehend at all is that IF 11:29 doesn't apply to the specifically described gifts of the Holy Spirit and eternal life, then Paul would have SAID SO in v.29. Because in that same epistle prior to 11:29 he mentioned that eternal life is a gift of God in 6:23 and that the Holy Spirit is "given to us" in 5:5.

So can't a gift be lost? Doesn't matter if it was given to us. In Gal 1:6, Paul refers to those Colossians who were CALLED but despite that deserted the grace of Christ in order to follow another gospel.

So what? It's a command as well. Why do you perseverate on "on-going action"? The present tense doesn't mean that on-going action is necessary in order for the RESULTS of such action to continue. That's a fantasy.

The present tense means that at any given time - past, present or future - the action must be occurring. The action is not strictly relegated to the past as you claim. Your knowledge of the Greek is deficient.

How is is possible that "we have been made HOLY" through the sacrifice of Christ ONCE FOR ALL?

Is a believer who is addicted to inappropriate contentography still holy? Yes or no?
Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 Jn 3:7
Based on this verse, are you leading others astray by what you teach? Every teacher should ask themself that question.

You need to study these 2 sentences of yours until you realize just how contradictory they are. If He died for all sins (1st sentence), then it is impossible for Him to "not die for sins unrepented of".

Fair enough. How about he did not die for unrepentant sins?

Heb 10:14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Unbelievable. It clearly SAYS that believers are "made perfect forever". And the verse tells us HOW they are: "for by one sacrifice".

Incorrect. Read the verse. "Perfect" references those who are BEING MADE holy. THEY ARE NOT ALREADY HOLY. Believers are perfected forever as long as they are being made holy. Thus failure to remain holy results in not being perfected forever. Comprende?

This is more screwed up than anything else you've posted!!

The Bible calls the LOF the "second death". Yet you claim there will be believers who end up in the second death, "yet will be saved".

My understanding of "universalism" is that everyone will ultimately be saved.

1 Cor 3:15 doesn't come close to supporting that silly idea. So, where does it come f

It comes from the doctrine of apokatasis which apparently you are totally unfamiliar with. I've commented on it many times in other threads and even now on a current thread however it is not the subject of this thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

At any given moment - PAST, PRESENT or FUTURE.

This doesn't in any way support your false claim that the present tense means that the verbal action MUST CONTINUE in order for the results (salvation) to continue.

If at the moment of believing is only a one-time instance in the past, then the aorist tense is used. The aorist tense is not used in Jn 3:16.

Are you admitting ignorance to the verses where the aorist tense IS used??

John 11:40, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9.

And don't ignore these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These verses tell us that condemnation (lake of fire) is for those who "have not believed". Do you understand what this refers to? Those who NEVER believed.

All you have done is deny.

Absolutely! I will continue to deny your unbiblical claims.

I said:
"The present does NOT mean that. And you haven't proven anything."

You have not explained explain why. Hardy convincing. Care to come up with one??

Well, start READING my posts. I HAVE explained the present tense and you have FAILED to prove your claim about the tense.

What you don't understand is Jn 10:28 is predicated on v.27 and applies only to those sheep who are listening and following, so your theory is refuted by Jesus.

Show me any so-called "predication". lol. Nonsense. v.27 is a policy statement about what Jesus' sheep ought to do. If you think it is a factual statement about all of His sheep, then you are deluded and extremely naive.

The Bible is full of examples of believers who failed to follow their Lord. So we can eliminate any notion that v.27 is a factual statement about believers.

To prove my point, I ask you to explain the difference between a factual statement and a policy statement. Your answer will illuminate your problem.

v.28 is a straightforward statement about who won't perish. Those given eternal life.

What this teaches is that eternal security is based on what a person is given by Jesus; eternal life.

Peter taught the same principle from a slightly different perspective:

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

So, those given eternal life shall never perish.

And, those born again of imperishable seed shall never perish.

But since you refuse to believe this, please explain how a born again person of imperishable seed CAN perish.

Indeed and only those believers who obey have eternal life (Heb 5:9). Thanks for proving my point.

lol again. Are you going to deny John 5:24 and 6:47? Both verses say that eternal life is possessed by those who believe.

And the apostle John re-iterated that FACT here:
1 John 5:11,13
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, obviously you are misreading or misunderstanding Heb 5:9.

In Acts 26:20 Paul described the gospel that he preached as containing WORKS that demonstrate repentance. I prefer to believe the gospel that Paul preached in contradiction to yours.

" First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds."

Reading problems? He NEVER taught that the gospel "contained works". He said to change your mind and turn to God, and THEN demonstrate their repentance by their deeds, which is exactly what John the baptizer taught.

John 3:27 - Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

John distinguished between the Mosaic Law, that did require works, and the "law of faith".

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

The Law will send people to hell if that's what they think will get them saved.

Perhaps you ought to read it. V.21 which states that doing the will of the Father is necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sure. Let's go with that. So, just what is the "will of the Father" that Jesus noted?

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

There it is in plain language. God's will is that everyone who believes in His Son shall have eternal life. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 NEVER believed in His Son. They entire appeal to entering the kingdom was based on their works.

But by your standard that would mean "too many strings attached." Why don't you tell that to Jesus?

I have no need to argue with Jesus. I absolutely believe everything He taught. Unlike yourself. And you sorely misjudge what my "standards" are. They are biblical, which is why you argue so strongly against what I post.

Nonsense. Your practicing counter transference.

Nonsense.

Why do you misread the verse??

Hey, that's my question to YOU.

There is no mention of sin in this verse at all
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Christ's sacrifice was one-time only negating the need for continual animal sacrifice.

Are you really so unaware as to not understand that when "sacrifice" is used in reference to what Jesus did on the cross, it refers to the FACT that He died for sins??

Just 2 verses later we have this:
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

But you have rejected that clear teaching about Jesus' sacrifice FOR SINS. His one sacrifice was "for sins". Not "past sins". Sins. Without any adjective attached, it refers to every single sin ever committed by everyone.

Then, just 2 more verses later:
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

If His "one sacrifice for sins" "has made PERFECT FOREVER" those who believed in Him, how can anyone claim that He didn't die for all sins??

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So, not only was His ONE SACRIFICE for sins, but believers have been made perfect forever on that basis.

You've got no point at all.

Thus we are made holy via His one-time sacrifice however we are obligated to remain holy by living an obedient life. Have you not bothered to read the whole chapter?

Sure. Believers are commanded to be holy. So what does that have to do with your unbiblical claim that only past sins were covered?

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:26
No sacrifice remaining means no forgiveness, meaning no eternal life.

No it doesn't. It means that Christ's one time sacrifice for sins means the sin is already covered. However, the key to v.26 is "deliberately". This is willful sin. And God absolutely WILL discipline those children of His who live that way.

Heb 12:11 says that God's discipline is painful. Believe it.

So can't a gift be lost?

I'm not referring to some cheap trinket. But is that how you view the gift of eternal life? No different than some cheap trinket? Well, then, add that to your problems.

Jesus SAID, did you hear me, He SAID that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

How long is "never"?

Doesn't matter if it was given to us. In Gal 1:6, Paul refers to those Colossians who were CALLED but despite that deserted the grace of Christ in order to follow another gospel.

And...where are any words that tell us that eternal life is lost in this circumstance?

Don't you see that you are making a huge assumption?

I am quite concerned about your "doesn't matter if it was given to us" comment.

Apparently, in spite of what Jesus said following His statement about giving eternal life to His sheep, you STILL REJECT what He said about recipients never perishing.

The present tense means that at any given time - past, present or future - the action must be occurring.

No, the present tense only means action that is happening NOW, from the perspective of the speaker/writer. And you STILL have FAILED to prove your claim about action of the verb tied to results of that action.

And you have NO evidence at all that the action must be on-going in order for the results (salvation) to be on-going.

The action is not strictly relegated to the past as you claim. Your knowledge of the Greek is deficient.

Your knowledge of the Greek seems to be quite lacking. I freely admit that I've not had formal classroom training. But it seems you haven't even opened any Greek grammar text. Unlike me.

Is a believer who is addicted to inappropriate contentography still holy? Yes or no?

Of course not. And in danger of painful discipline.

But in NO danger of eternally perishing. By definition, a believer possesses eternal life, and has been born again of imperishable seed, and therefore, CANNOT perish.

Better still, Jesus said that such a one "shall never perish".

Closes the door on your claims.

Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 Jn 3:7
Based on this verse, are you leading others astray by what you teach? Every teacher should ask themself that question.

Nope. I accurately teach that ALL sin results in loss of fellowship (intimacy) with the Lord, loss of blessings, loss of eternal reward, and PAINFUL DISCIPLINE. Why do you keep ignoring what ALL I teach?

Fair enough. How about he did not die for unrepentant sins?

How about it? Where is it taught in Scripture? In fact, His ONE sacrifice for sins covers all sins.

Incorrect. Read the verse. "Perfect" references those who are BEING MADE holy. THEY ARE NOT ALREADY HOLY.

This shows how little you understand of Scripture. The Greek word for 'perfect' means complete, mature. Go ahead and look it up.

Of course a new believer isn't "already holy". That's why spiritual growth is such an important issue, and one that you seem totally unaware of.

Believers are perfected forever as long as they are being made holy.

Great example of how to TOTALLY MISREAD AND MISUNDERSTAND the verse. It says nothing of the sort. Where is your "as long as" conditional clause in the verse?

Hint: it's totally missing. You are simply adding to Scripture. You are NOT inspired.

Thus failure to remain holy results in not being perfected forever. Comprende?

You're the one with comprehension problems. The word "forever" refers to eternity, obviously. All believers will be perfected in eternity. The challenge and command for believers in the here and now is to grow up spiritually and to become Christ-like.

It comes from the doctrine of apokatasis which apparently you are totally unfamiliar with. I've commented on it many times in other threads and even now on a current thread however it is not the subject of this thread.

Well, obviously I've not read these "other thread", so enlighten me about your doctrine.

Just throwing out a tidbit without any context is poor form.

If you don't include some context, then just swallow your tidbit. Don't share it.

 

[corinth77777]

How many, and what are they?

What is Salvation? A verb or noun?
If it's a verb, then what are you being saved from according to scripture? And if it's a noun then Just as the ark was their salvation, so is the Resurrection of Christ today.

 

[Oldmantook]

This doesn't in any way support your false claim that the present tense means that the verbal action MUST CONTINUE in order for the results (salvation) to continue.


Are you admitting ignorance to the verses where the aorist tense IS used??

John 11:40, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9.

And don't ignore these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These verses tell us that condemnation (lake of fire) is for those who "have not believed". Do you understand what this refers to? Those who NEVER believed.


Absolutely! I will continue to deny your unbiblical claims.

I said:
"The present does NOT mean that. And you haven't proven anything."

Well, start READING my posts. I HAVE explained the present tense and you have FAILED to prove your claim about the tense.


Show me any so-called "predication". lol. Nonsense. v.27 is a policy statement about what Jesus' sheep ought to do. If you think it is a factual statement about all of His sheep, then you are deluded and extremely naive.

The Bible is full of examples of believers who failed to follow their Lord. So we can eliminate any notion that v.27 is a factual statement about believers.

To prove my point, I ask you to explain the difference between a factual statement and a policy statement. Your answer will illuminate your problem.

v.28 is a straightforward statement about who won't perish. Those given eternal life.

What this teaches is that eternal security is based on what a person is given by Jesus; eternal life.

Peter taught the same principle from a slightly different perspective:

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

So, those given eternal life shall never perish.

And, those born again of imperishable seed shall never perish.

But since you refuse to believe this, please explain how a born again person of imperishable seed CAN perish.


lol again. Are you going to deny John 5:24 and 6:47? Both verses say that eternal life is possessed by those who believe.

And the apostle John re-iterated that FACT here:
1 John 5:11,13
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, obviously you are misreading or misunderstanding Heb 5:9.



" First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds."

Reading problems? He NEVER taught that the gospel "contained works". He said to change your mind and turn to God, and THEN demonstrate their repentance by their deeds, which is exactly what John the baptizer taught.

John 3:27 - Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

John distinguished between the Mosaic Law, that did require works, and the "law of faith".

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

The Law will send people to hell if that's what they think will get them saved.


Sure. Let's go with that. So, just what is the "will of the Father" that Jesus noted?

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

There it is in plain language. God's will is that everyone who believes in His Son shall have eternal life. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 NEVER believed in His Son. They entire appeal to entering the kingdom was based on their works.


I have no need to argue with Jesus. I absolutely believe everything He taught. Unlike yourself. And you sorely misjudge what my "standards" are. They are biblical, which is why you argue so strongly against what I post.


Nonsense.


Hey, that's my question to YOU.


Are you really so unaware as to not understand that when "sacrifice" is used in reference to what Jesus did on the cross, it refers to the FACT that He died for sins??

Just 2 verses later we have this:
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

But you have rejected that clear teaching about Jesus' sacrifice FOR SINS. His one sacrifice was "for sins". Not "past sins". Sins. Without any adjective attached, it refers to every single sin ever committed by everyone.

Then, just 2 more verses later:
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

If His "one sacrifice for sins" "has made PERFECT FOREVER" those who believed in Him, how can anyone claim that He didn't die for all sins??

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So, not only was His ONE SACRIFICE for sins, but believers have been made perfect forever on that basis.

You've got no point at all.


Sure. Believers are commanded to be holy. So what does that have to do with your unbiblical claim that only past sins were covered?


No it doesn't. It means that Christ's one time sacrifice for sins means the sin is already covered. However, the key to v.26 is "deliberately". This is willful sin. And God absolutely WILL discipline those children of His who live that way.

Heb 12:11 says that God's discipline is painful. Believe it.


I'm not referring to some cheap trinket. But is that how you view the gift of eternal life? No different than some cheap trinket? Well, then, add that to your problems.

Jesus SAID, did you hear me, He SAID that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

How long is "never"?


And...where are any words that tell us that eternal life is lost in this circumstance?

Don't you see that you are making a huge assumption?

I am quite concerned about your "doesn't matter if it was given to us" comment.

Apparently, in spite of what Jesus said following His statement about giving eternal life to His sheep, you STILL REJECT what He said about recipients never perishing.


No, the present tense only means action that is happening NOW, from the perspective of the speaker/writer. And you STILL have FAILED to prove your claim about action of the verb tied to results of that action.

And you have NO evidence at all that the action must be on-going in order for the results (salvation) to be on-going.


Your knowledge of the Greek seems to be quite lacking. I freely admit that I've not had formal classroom training. But it seems you haven't even opened any Greek grammar text. Unlike me.


Of course not. And in danger of painful discipline.

But in NO danger of eternally perishing. By definition, a believer possesses eternal life, and has been born again of imperishable seed, and therefore, CANNOT perish.

Better still, Jesus said that such a one "shall never perish".

Closes the door on your claims.


Nope. I accurately teach that ALL sin results in loss of fellowship (intimacy) with the Lord, loss of blessings, loss of eternal reward, and PAINFUL DISCIPLINE. Why do you keep ignoring what ALL I teach?


How about it? Where is it taught in Scripture? In fact, His ONE sacrifice for sins covers all sins.


This shows how little you understand of Scripture. The Greek word for 'perfect' means complete, mature. Go ahead and look it up.

Of course a new believer isn't "already holy". That's why spiritual growth is such an important issue, and one that you seem totally unaware of.


Great example of how to TOTALLY MISREAD AND MISUNDERSTAND the verse. It says nothing of the sort. Where is your "as long as" conditional clause in the verse?

Hint: it's totally missing. You are simply adding to Scripture. You are NOT inspired.


You're the one with comprehension problems. The word "forever" refers to eternity, obviously. All believers will be perfected in eternity. The challenge and command for believers in the here and now is to grow up spiritually and to become Christ-like.


Well, obviously I've not read these "other thread", so enlighten me about your doctrine.

Just throwing out a tidbit without any context is poor form.

If you don't include some context, then just swallow your tidbit. Don't share it.

The basis of your belief is that you deny that continuous belief is a necessary condition for salvation. Quite ironically, you cited Daniel Wallace to buttress your view but instead Wallace contradicts your view which I already pointed out. Yet you continue to cling to your unsupported belief. I'll cite Wallace again to remind you:
The idea seems to be both gnomic and continual: "everyone who continually believes." This is not due to the present tense only, but to the use of the present participle of πιστεύω, especially in soteriological contexts in the NT (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pp. 620-621).

In his footnote Wallace elaborates:
The aspectual force of the present ὁ πιστεύων seems to be in contrast with ὁ πιστεύσας . The aorist is used only eight times (plus two in the longer ending of Mark). The aorist is sometimes used to describe believers as such and thus has a generic force (cf. for the clearest example the v.l. at Mark 16:16; cf. also 2 Thess 1:10; Heb 4:3; perhaps John 7:39; also, negatively, of those who did not [ μή ] believe: 2 Thess 2:12; Jude 5). The present occurs six times as often (43 times), most often in soteriological contexts (cf. John 1:12; 3:15, 16, 18; 3:36; 6:35, 47, 64; 7:38; 11:25; 12:46; Acts 2:44; 10:43; 13:39; Rom 1:16; 3:22; 4:11, 24; 9:33; 10:4, 11; 1 Cor 1:21; 14:22 [bis]; Gal 3:22; Eph 1:19; 1 Thess 1:7; 2:10, 13; 1 Pet 2:6, 7; 1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13). Thus, it seems that since the aorist participle was a live option to describe a "believer," it is unlikely that when the present was used, it was aspectually flat. The present was the tense of choice most likely because the NT writers by and large saw continual belief as a necessary condition of salvation. Along these lines, it seems significant that the promise of salvation is almost always given to ὁ πιστεύων (cf. several of the above-cited texts), almost never to ὁ πιστεύσας (apart from Mark 16:16, John 7:39 and Heb 4:3 come the closest [the present tense of πιστεύω never occurs in Hebrews]).

 

[FreeGrace2]

The basis of your belief is that you deny that continuous belief is a necessary condition for salvation.

I believe what the Bible says. Those who HAVE BELIEVED possess eternal life. The aorist tense refutes your faulty notion that "continuous belief" in necessary in order to stay saved. That is an abuse of the Greek present tense.

Quite ironically, you cited Daniel Wallace to buttress your vie notionw but instead Wallace contradicts your view which I already pointed out.

Instead, I showed that he himself contradicted himself, since his definition of the present tense says NOTHING about results of a present tense action are dependent upon the action contining.

Yet you continue to cling to your unsupported belief. I'll cite Wallace again to remind you:
The idea seems to be both gnomic and continual: "everyone who continually believes." This is not due to the present tense only, but to the use of the present participle of πιστεύω, especially in soteriological contexts in the NT (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pp. 620-621).

I'm getting a bit tired of this silly argument. If he was correct that to stay saved, one must "contunually believe", he is refuted directly by Scripture itself.

For example, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer. That would have been an error IF continuous belief is necessary for salvation.

Paul also used the aorist tense in rom 10:9 regarding salvation. Are you going to ignore what an inspired author of Scripture wrote in favor of a self contradictory grammar text? Not me.

Also, consider these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Note the 2 SAME phrases in red. These 2 verses teach that condemnation if those who "have not believed". Do you understand what that means? It means those who NEVER believed, since no timeframe is mentioned. So, in a person's life, if they have NEVER believed, they will be condemned.

In his footnote Wallace elaborates:
The aspectual force of the present ὁ πιστεύων seems to be in contrast with ὁ πιστεύσας . The aorist is used only eight times (plus two in the longer ending of Mark). The aorist is sometimes used to describe believers as such and thus has a generic force (cf. for the clearest example the v.l. at Mark 16:16; cf. also 2 Thess 1:10; Heb 4:3; perhaps John 7:39; also, negatively, of those who did not [ μή ] believe: 2 Thess 2:12; Jude 5). The present occurs six times as often (43 times), most often in soteriological contexts (cf. John 1:12; 3:15, 16, 18; 3:36; 6:35, 47, 64; 7:38; 11:25; 12:46; Acts 2:44; 10:43; 13:39; Rom 1:16; 3:22; 4:11, 24; 9:33; 10:4, 11; 1 Cor 1:21; 14:22 [bis]; Gal 3:22; Eph 1:19; 1 Thess 1:7; 2:10, 13; 1 Pet 2:6, 7; 1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13). Thus, it seems that since the aorist participle was a live option to describe a "believer," it is unlikely that when the present was used, it was aspectually flat. The present was the tense of choice most likely because the NT writers by and large saw continual belief as a necessary condition of salvation. Along these lines, it seems significant that the promise of salvation is almost always given to ὁ πιστεύων (cf. several of the above-cited texts), almost never to ὁ πιστεύσας (apart from Mark 16:16, John 7:39 and Heb 4:3 come the closest [the present tense of πιστεύω never occurs in Hebrews]).

So, now we're counting the occurrences and "doing the math" and basing a doctrine on which tense has the greater weight. Nonsense.

I don't care a whit about Wallace's opinion. Did you notice in the bolded sentence above he said "most likely". That's nothing but an opinion. He was guessing here.

Furthermore, the aorist tense REFUTES his opinion anyway.

Does Wallace understand more than Paul, who actually LIVED the Koine Greek, unlike Wallace? Of course not.

Show me where he noted in the description and definition of the present tense that the RESULTS of the present tense action occur ONLY AS LONG AS the present tense action occurs. And cite the page number. I always note page numbers when I cite a source. Please do the same.
Also consider what Jesus told the woman at the well when He equated believing with taking a drink.

John 4-
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

In v.13 Jesus acknowledges that drinking RIGHT NOW (present participle) will STILL be "thirsty again".
Then in v.14 He equates drinking with believing, and notes that they "will NEVER THIRST".

This agrees with what Jesus said in John 10:28 about the results of giving eternal life to His sheep. They shall NEVER perish.

btw, Jesus used the present active indicative for 'give' when He said, "I give them eternal life".

Are you going to argue that Jesus is "continually "giving" eternal life to His sheep in order for them to NEVER PERISH? How would that make any sense?

It doesn't. When He gives eternal life, the recipient HAS it. They POSSESS it right now. At that moment.

So again, more examples that refute the confused Wallace.

I am glad that you have pointed out to me his contradictory views about the present tense. Thanks.

 

[Oldmantook]

I believe what the Bible says. Those who HAVE BELIEVED possess eternal life. The aorist tense refutes your faulty notion that "continuous belief" in necessary in order to stay saved. That is an abuse of the Greek present tense.


Instead, I showed that he himself contradicted himself, since his definition of the present tense says NOTHING about results of a present tense action are dependent upon the action contining.


I'm getting a bit tired of this silly argument. If he was correct that to stay saved, one must "contunually believe", he is refuted directly by Scripture itself.

For example, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer. That would have been an error IF continuous belief is necessary for salvation.

Paul also used the aorist tense in rom 10:9 regarding salvation. Are you going to ignore what an inspired author of Scripture wrote in favor of a self contradictory grammar text? Not me.

Also, consider these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Note the 2 SAME phrases in red. These 2 verses teach that condemnation if those who "have not believed". Do you understand what that means? It means those who NEVER believed, since no timeframe is mentioned. So, in a person's life, if they have NEVER believed, they will be condemned.


So, now we're counting the occurrences and "doing the math" and basing a doctrine on which tense has the greater weight. Nonsense.

I don't care a whit about Wallace's opinion. Did you notice in the bolded sentence above he said "most likely". That's nothing but an opinion. He was guessing here.

Furthermore, the aorist tense REFUTES his opinion anyway.

Does Wallace understand more than Paul, who actually LIVED the Koine Greek, unlike Wallace? Of course not.

Show me where he noted in the description and definition of the present tense that the RESULTS of the present tense action occur ONLY AS LONG AS the present tense action occurs. And cite the page number. I always note page numbers when I cite a source. Please do the same.
Also consider what Jesus told the woman at the well when He equated believing with taking a drink.

John 4-
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

In v.13 Jesus acknowledges that drinking RIGHT NOW (present participle) will STILL be "thirsty again".
Then in v.14 He equates drinking with believing, and notes that they "will NEVER THIRST".

This agrees with what Jesus said in John 10:28 about the results of giving eternal life to His sheep. They shall NEVER perish.

btw, Jesus used the present active indicative for 'give' when He said, "I give them eternal life".

Are you going to argue that Jesus is "continually "giving" eternal life to His sheep in order for them to NEVER PERISH? How would that make any sense?

It doesn't. When He gives eternal life, the recipient HAS it. They POSSESS it right now. At that moment.

So again, more examples that refute the confused Wallace.

I am glad that you have pointed out to me his contradictory views about the present tense. Thanks.

You quoted Wallace to prove your point that scholarly teaching backs your belief. Now you ignore Wallace's scholarly statements because he actually contradicts your belief. What a hypocrite!

 

[FreeGrace2]

You quoted Wallace to prove your point that scholarly teaching backs your belief. Now you ignore Wallace's scholarly statements because he actually contradicts your belief. What a hypocrite!

No, you just terribly misunderstand.

I asked you to find in Wallace's description and definition of the present tense that proves that the ACTION of the VERB is required for the RESULTS of that action to continue.

If that isn't clear, then try this. Prove from Wallace's description and definition of the present tense that the results of an action are continuous ONLY WHEN the action is continuous.

That is the sole issue in this discussion. Wallace NEVER came close to suggesting that the results are continuous ONLY WHEN the action is continuous in his description and definition of the present tense.

He clearly got into the weeds in trying to explain some verses.

And I just showed that how Jesus and Paul described salvation/eternal life DISPROVES Wallace's opinion.

And I showed that it was nothing more than opinion by his "most likely" comment.

If that isn't getting into the weeds, then there is no such thing as getting into the weeds.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

How many, and what are they?

Realizing one is a sinner
and deserves hell
granted the gift of Repentance (used often)
trusting in Christ alone.
M-Bob

 

[Salvadore]

Do you obey Him in everything? Do you love others as yourself? Forget those..rather do you need to obey Him and love others as yourself?

You will want to do those things. You will not live a perfect life but you will want to please God in all you do. When you displeased Him you will want to ask for forgiveness. You will change your attitude. This does not mean you are required to be perfect. It means you want to live the way Christ teaches even though you will fail at times.

 

[Salvadore]

So how would you evangelize someone?

I heard Billy Graham on the tv today say that being born again involved 4 things. Repentance, believing Christ, committing your life to Christ, and witnessing. Would you agree with that? Seems obvious tho that you wouldn't tell someone that if they believe in Jesus that they receive eternal life at that moment. Am I reading you right?

You can witness by exhibiting Christlike behavior. It is not mandatory to hand out Bibles or stand on a street corner with a sign although it is ok to do so.Be kind to your neighbor, help feed the hungry. Do stuff that Jesus taught. People will see something different in you. It is your attitude that counts.

 

[Salvadore]

That is absurd. It's present tense because Jesus is talking to a live person in the resent in context. When someone believes they are in a perpetual state of believing. They dont move in and out of it. And besides all that, they receive eternal life at that moment, apart from works. Otherwise he would have said probationary life.
But hey, go ahead with your good works. When you are good enough let us know so we can worship you since you'll have been the only one except Jesus. Good grief.

Scruffy!