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Confess

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If you are refering root as faith, then indeed I have no faith. I don't want to believe, I want to know. (paraphasing Carl Sagan's wife.) And the only way I will know is when I challenge every idea. If the idea is correct, or even holds some merit, then it will not falter.

With faith, you can believe in anything, and be "right." I can say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the true God. I can show you a book, written by a hundred people 5000 years ago, that proves his existence. Can you disprove me? No, of course not. It flys in space, watching over us. But why does it allow children to suffer? Because the FSM knows whats best. Can you show me the FSM? No, in the holy book, it decrees we are never to see the FSM until we die. But how do you know that the FSM exists? You must have faith. Once you have faith, you will know.

Have a goodnight.

David S.
And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind

Romans 1:28


IOW: If you continue to reject God, then there may be a point of no turning back and he will give you over to an evil mind. Once your lost then there is no understanding how to leave the misery.

RE: Why do you love God?
I love God and have faith in him because I know that I am a sinner. A person cannot have faith in God without understanding that they are first a sinner.

Only a person who understands this will understand that sinners cannot save themselves.

Once you understand this, they you can begin understanding the Christian faith better and better. It begins to make more and more sense.

Thinking that you are a good person who messes up now and then keeps you in the dark. There is no hope, no assurance, nothing. What you do in this life is all you get. This world is a miserable world where everyone is out to get you. The government, the stores, the banks all want your money, theives want your possessions, children and spouses want your attention. Everything you work so hard for is wanted by everyone and some are willing to ruin your life to get it.

If there is no God, then this miserable world is your heaven.

I don't believe that. I know Jesus was here on earth for a time. Non-Christian historians have written about him during the days that Jesus lived. Miracles happen, the world was created in such a way that there has to be a God. I am created in such a way that there has to be a God.

My thirst for knowledge of Christ within an apathetic home at such a young age tells me that there is a God.

There is just too much evidence.

So, either earth is your heaven or there is something else.
 
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Fortuna

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David S.-Adam and Eve were unfairly punished. Firstly, they were the FIRST human beings in existence. They have no conept of good or evil, right or wrong, smart, or stupid. God created them with these fallacys, KNOWING that they WILL commit their sins. He then punished them because they disobeyed him. The problem with this is that God KNEW what that he was going to kick them out, unless you are ruling out that God is omnicient. If he is, why didn't he just step in and tell them not to eat it, when they were going to? Free will? Hah. God knowing what they will do eliminates free will.

No it doesn't. Many parents know what their child is going to do but that does not stop the child from doing it. Then the child says, "How did they know I would do that?" I know that if I leave food unattended on the kitchen counter, that my dog with eat it. No matter the punishment he still steals. He cannot resist temptation, he is a dog.

We are human and supposed to be able to resist temptation and obey God. If I obey him I stay out of trouble more often. ^_^


Now, for the second part. If god was truly merciful and forgiving, why did he wait 4000 years to forgive us of our sins? The crimes of a father (mother) do not pass to their son (daughter).

He did not wait to forgive our sins, he saw that the people were unbelievers, turning away from him and falling so he gave his Son, Jesus Christ. The more people turned to idolatry and pagan worship, the more God's compassion strengthened to send his Son. He saw that the people needed Jesus. Even though he was sent by God there were still unbelievers. People often do not believe what they see or what they hear. The mind plays tricks on us, but the heart and God never lie.

I was lucky that God showed himself to me. I just converted Nov 2007. It was because I said "I am yours, save me." From that time on miracles of every sort ocurred, physical, spiritual and material phenomena. I prayed asking God for things to take place and I expected with confidence that he would provide them. He did. I had faith without knowing I had faith, I just thought, one must pray with confidence as if one expects the things prayed for. These miracles saved my life and my soul. I don't feel that I am more worthy than anyone else. I have done nothing to deserve God's grace, he gave it freely.

I have been in several life threatening situations and God saved me, because he believed in me that someday I would come back to him and become his own. I turned my free will over to God to do his will because my will and doing things my way never benefited me or anyone else.

It took me forty years, I know it doesn't take everyone so long, but I stubbornly believed I was good and did not need God. I was very wrong.

I have been several religions before Christianity. I was a Buddhist for 30 years and a couple of other religions before that.

I have suffered for the crimes of my father, but maybe not in the way that you think. His sin (crimes) of adultery and alcoholism ruined our family and tore it apart. His sins indeed passed to me so did my mother's bad choices in men.



Haha, and again I tell you that the Old Testament is filled with fallacys.

If Christians believed in the OT laws, the Old Covenant then we would be Jewish not Christian. Jesus offered a New Testament, New Covenant, specifically telling us that we did not have to follw the myths and laws of the Old Testament, but that we must follow the ten commandments.
As for some of the OT, it is the history of the Jews. God promised to care for the Hebrews and lead them into the promised land. Therefore, he commanded that they protect their nation. When the Jews left Egypt, they were attacked by the Amalekites and the Amalekites sought to destroy them. In fact, many pagan tribes tried to commit genocide upon the Jews. If they had not fought other tribes they would have been wiped out and so would the line of Daivd from which the Messiah came.
This is the problem when people try to read and understand the bible on their own and without having studied ancient history. By coming up with our own assumptions, we are led astray and we become the idols that we ourselves worship.


You do not put enough value in mankind. Perhaps you should praise the people that actualy DO something, and not the supposed deity that works behind the scenes, but will not prove his existence.

He has proved his existence to me. Do some of the work yourself to find proof instead of asking others to do it for you. You will find that it is a lot more rewarding and understandable when you have your own experiences.

I doubt that you have even spoken to God or asked him to save you and given yourself over to him. He is waiting for you to do this of your own free will and with sincereity to know him.

There are many whose good works are a result of their faith and the Holy Spirit coming into them. I have faith in mankind, however, Jesus is the only one I trust. People almost always will let you down in some way.




Sacrifice = Jesus right? Tell me, why does the almighty lord need to steep to such a low as human sacrifice to forgive us of our sins? Why not just forgive us the sins? We need to be cleansed? Is that it? Well if he is all powerful, he should be able to do that too.

He did not stoop, he gave us a giftr. Why would God do this without the proof everyone asks for? He owes us nothing and we owe him everything. He gave his son so that we could have proof of his love. He does cleanse those who repent and amend their lives. How will our soul grow, how will we learn if our Father does everything for us. How do we learn if our parents do not teach us how to walk or eat or dress ourselves. Try to remember how excited you were when you learn to tie your own shoes or go to use the big potty by yourself. LOL
How boring and unrewarding to have had everything handed to us.
And, how would we ever understand the suffering of others, if we do not suffer at times ourselves?

Indeed I am willing to deal with the consequences. If your God is at all just, then he would judge me by the way I lived, not of my beliefs. Then again, Im not sure if I want to spend the rest of eternity floating around the clouds. Scared of heights and all...

I have learned to try and set aside my arrogance (not listening to the council of those more wise than I), my selfishness, and my disdain for those who have no ears or eyes, however, I find it very hard to set aside my sorrow for those who deny God.

Blessings, Fortuna:hug:

 
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Confess

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DonkDat,
I am sorry if you took my reply as an insult. I was making an objective observation considering the judgements you have posted.

I would think that this thread would be pretty frustrating since we see something you cannot see.

The shortsightedness comment was a comment that may have been poorly stated. But if you have no faith, then you cannot see what we see. By rejecting God, you are not allowed to see what is so clear to us.

Your take on Adam and Eve put a smile on my face since you are the first I have ever seen to basically say that God created a couple of retards. What God created was good. Adam and Eve were perfectly knowledgable in all things. They understood how to maintain the Garden and the Animals. Adam was even able to name all the animals. You make them sound like babies.

Also, God gave a simple command. DO NOT EAT. But, they disobeyed. When Satan disobeyed, his punishment was eternal. God wasn't as harsh with Adam and Eve. Infact, he was so loving that he made a plan from the beginning that would rescue us from eternal punishment.

RE: The Flood
DonkDat said:
Haha, and again I tell you that the Old Testament is filled with fallacys.

And are you now telling us that we are not allowed to choose who to marry? Thanks for another limitation on my freedom. Not appreciated.

You do not put enough value in mankind. Perhaps you should praise the people that actualy DO something, and not the supposed deity that works behind the scenes, but will not prove his existence.

Since you obviously haven't read the whole of the OT (based on the interestings things that you have stated). Your conclusion is baseless. As for marriage. I am not telling anyone who to marry. It is just that even today. It is VERY difficult for a Christian to have a good marriage with a Non-Christian. The Christian tends to have to compromise their faith to make the marriage work. That is not opinion, it is fact.

RE: Sacrifice
DonkDat said:
Sacrifice = Jesus right? Tell me, why does the almighty lord need to steep to such a low as human sacrifice to forgive us of our sins? Why not just forgive us the sins? We need to be cleansed? Is that it? Well if he is all powerful, he should be able to do that too.

Indeed I am willing to deal with the consequences. If your God is at all just, then he would judge me by the way I lived, not of my beliefs. Then again, Im not sure if I want to spend the rest of eternity floating around the clouds. Scared of heights and all...

I can't tell you exactly why this is the way it has to be done. All I know is that God has no fellowship with sin and that all that comes from him is Truth. He cannot lie nor can he blink at one sin.

What God did was to make a way that our sins would be washed away. His ways are far greater then ours and his knowledge is far superior. Just as your father knew more then you did when you were a child, so too does God. IMO: If I were God, I wouldn't just forgive either. Because then people who hated me (like you) would go to heaven. What kind of heaven has people who hate?

Also, I would rather spend eternity on a cloud with warmth, comfort and love then eternally falling in blackness in unbearable heat with screams all around me.

But hey, that is just me.
 
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SavedForever

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I am just going to answer your first post: Why do I love Him? Because He died for me. Why did he kill all those people? Because He made them; they disobeyed Him; so He punished them (It was harsh; but hey, He is God). Why are we supposed to love our neighbors? Because we are all in the same boat. They're made by God; just as you are. Sure, they sinned; but so have you. Basically you are supposed to love them because Jesus loves you.
 
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DonkDat

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I learned to live life on my own for a VERY long time David! I learned how to cope, manipulate and castrate when I didn't get my way!

God, by the Life He Lived here on planet earth revealed to me another way.. The way of sacrifical Love!

I soon found out, however, that I was INCAPABLE of this kind of Love.. I turned to Him, and He met me!

He'll meet you too, if you seek Him!

Sacrificial love? That makes no sense.

I have already tried. He obviously didn't think I was worth his love.

Have a goodnight.

David S.
 
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DonkDat

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IOW: If you continue to reject God, then there may be a point of no turning back and he will give you over to an evil mind. Once your lost then there is no understanding how to leave the misery.
I don't understand this. You mean I'll be miserable for all of eternity? Really? I am more astounded about the world I am living in now, than when I was religious. Life is finite, and I intend to live every second of it.

RE: Why do you love God?
I love God and have faith in him because I know that I am a sinner. A person cannot have faith in God without understanding that they are first a sinner.

Only a person who understands this will understand that sinners cannot save themselves.

Once you understand this, they you can begin understanding the Christian faith better and better. It begins to make more and more sense.
So you love god because you sin and want to avoid justice?

Thinking that you are a good person who messes up now and then keeps you in the dark. There is no hope, no assurance, nothing. What you do in this life is all you get. This world is a miserable world where everyone is out to get you. The government, the stores, the banks all want your money, theives want your possessions, children and spouses want your attention. Everything you work so hard for is wanted by everyone and some are willing to ruin your life to get it.
Says you. I think that I am a good person. Actually, no I don't. My friends tell me that. This world is not miserable. Im not sure what kind of place you are living in, but up here in Canada, I am in the best place I could ever hope to be.

So what if the govenment wants my money? I want protection, education, health care, ect. I am willing to cough up some money for these things. I am against everything that my tax dollars go to, but perhaps one day that will change.

The stores deserve my moeny. It is a trade of value. I think that that bread is worth $3, so I will trade my money for that bread.

Theives will feel pretty bad if they steal from me, or my house when I am in it. Think hospital.

Whats wrong with children wanting my attention? I love those midgets. I go by my elementary occasionally just to talk to some of the kids I looked after in summer camp. Are you saying that children are evil?

And I want everyone to want what I work so hard to accomplish. That means I am doing something right. I have pride in my accomplishments. If they attempt to ruin my life, they will find that they will lose their life, or at least by in a lot of pain.

If there is no God, then this miserable world is your heaven.
There is no such thing as heaven. It is not possible. This "miserable" world is better than the communist world your God has created.

I don't believe that. I know Jesus was here on earth for a time. Non-Christian historians have written about him during the days that Jesus lived. Miracles happen, the world was created in such a way that there has to be a God. I am created in such a way that there has to be a God.
Miracles are explained away with easily. Trickery.

Watch the last few minutes of this show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo

No, the world does not need a God. God is infinitely more improbable than the big bang.

My thirst for knowledge of Christ within an apathetic home at such a young age tells me that there is a God.

There is just too much evidence.

So, either earth is your heaven or there is something else.
Show me this evidence please? Show me how I can replicate these experiences.

Heaven is not possible..

Have a goodnight.

David S.
 
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DonkDat

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No it doesn't. Many parents know what their child is going to do but that does not stop the child from doing it. Then the child says, "How did they know I would do that?" I know that if I leave food unattended on the kitchen counter, that my dog with eat it. No matter the punishment he still steals. He cannot resist temptation, he is a dog.

We are human and supposed to be able to resist temptation and obey God. If I obey him I stay out of trouble more often.
No, but God knows exactly what will happen. That is why it is impossible for there to be free will, if your Christian god exists.

Children are not developed enough to understand morality. They do not know what is right, or wrong. Dogs do not have the reasoning capacity to understand that stealing is wrong. It sees food, it realizes it is hungry, it goes eat it.

He did not wait to forgive our sins, he saw that the people were unbelievers, turning away from him and falling so he gave his Son, Jesus Christ. The more people turned to idolatry and pagan worship, the more God's compassion strengthened to send his Son. He saw that the people needed Jesus. Even though he was sent by God there were still unbelievers. People often do not believe what they see or what they hear. The mind plays tricks on us, but the heart and God never lie.
Human sacrifice does not show love. It shows primitive thinking by primitive men/women.

Christianity stole most of it's traditions from the pagan religions.

The heart is a muscle that pumps blood through out your body. How is it capable of lying?

I was lucky that God showed himself to me. I just converted Nov 2007. It was because I said "I am yours, save me." From that time on miracles of every sort ocurred, physical, spiritual and material phenomena. I prayed asking God for things to take place and I expected with confidence that he would provide them. He did. I had faith without knowing I had faith, I just thought, one must pray with confidence as if one expects the things prayed for. These miracles saved my life and my soul. I don't feel that I am more worthy than anyone else. I have done nothing to deserve God's grace, he gave it freely.
Try this experiment. Pray to the holy milk jug. Yes, the holy milk jug.

1) You prayed for $1000. The next day you get $1000 refund from the IRS. I tell you "Look! The holy jug of milk answered your prayer!"
2) You prayed for $1000. 5 weeks later you win a lottery at your job. I tell you "Look! The holy jug of milk answered your prayer! Your just have to wait."
3) You prayed for $1000. 5 Months later you ask me "Why didn't the holy milk jug answer me prayer?" I tell you "We have to trust the holy milk jug. It knows what's best. You just have to be patient."

This is known as the "Yes, No, and Wait" illusion. Whether you pray to the holy milk jug, a God, the orange peel in the garbage, you will get the SAME three results. You can never lose when praying. Something will happen. Whether it does happen, it does not happen, or you have to wait, something will happen. You always win.

I have been in several life threatening situations and God saved me, because he believed in me that someday I would come back to him and become his own. I turned my free will over to God to do his will because my will and doing things my way never benefited me or anyone else.
I am sure all of those situations could be solved, if not easily, with human intellect. Example please.

I have suffered for the crimes of my father, but maybe not in the way that you think. His sin (crimes) of adultery and alcoholism ruined our family and tore it apart. His sins indeed passed to me so did my mother's bad choices in men.

I thought that Buddhism is a life style.

No, by crimes passing from father to son I mean the responsibility of it. Locking you in jail for the murder your father did, ect.

If Christians believed in the OT laws, the Old Covenant then we would be Jewish not Christian. Jesus offered a New Testament, New Covenant, specifically telling us that we did not have to follw the myths and laws of the Old Testament, but that we must follow the ten commandments.
As for some of the OT, it is the history of the Jews. God promised to care for the Hebrews and lead them into the promised land. Therefore, he commanded that they protect their nation. When the Jews left Egypt, they were attacked by the Amalekites and the Amalekites sought to destroy them. In fact, many pagan tribes tried to commit genocide upon the Jews. If they had not fought other tribes they would have been wiped out and so would the line of Daivd from which the Messiah came.
This is the problem when people try to read and understand the bible on their own and without having studied ancient history. By coming up with our own assumptions, we are led astray and we become the idols that we ourselves worship.
Isn't God's word eternal?

And about the 10 commandments, why is it so hard to follow them? I know them. There are easy to follow, if unreasonable. Is your faith lacking? Maybe you don't really believe in them.

He has proved his existence to me. Do some of the work yourself to find proof instead of asking others to do it for you. You will find that it is a lot more rewarding and understandable when you have your own experiences.
I have, for 2 years. No results at all. Absolutely nothing. Unless someone can show me some evidence, I don't intend to waste more time. Like I have said, life is finite, and I plan to live every second of it.

I doubt that you have even spoken to God or asked him to save you and given yourself over to him. He is waiting for you to do this of your own free will and with sincereity to know him.
1) Nope I have not.
2) I have asked him to. I was at a point in my life that I would of accepted personal vertification, hallucination/vision, something. Anything. Nothing happened.

There are many whose good works are a result of their faith and the Holy Spirit coming into them. I have faith in mankind, however, Jesus is the only one I trust. People almost always will let you down in some way.
My friends never let me down. If they do, it is because the situation is out of their hands, and thus it is not their fault.



He did not stoop, he gave us a giftr. Why would God do this without the proof everyone asks for? He owes us nothing and we owe him everything. He gave his son so that we could have proof of his love. He does cleanse those who repent and amend their lives. How will our soul grow, how will we learn if our Father does everything for us. How do we learn if our parents do not teach us how to walk or eat or dress ourselves. Try to remember how excited you were when you learn to tie your own shoes or go to use the big potty by yourself. LOL
How boring and unrewarding to have had everything handed to us.
And, how would we ever understand the suffering of others, if we do not suffer at times ourselves?
Human sacrifice is never a gift. It is the ultimate proof that primitive men/women are unreasonable, and should be ignored.

I do not owe him anything. Sacrificing his son is proof of his love? I guess I don't want this version of love.

Actualy, you know, I was never excited when I could tie my shoes, or go to the potty. I was weird indifferent. Damn <.<

I have learned to try and set aside my arrogance (not listening to the council of those more wise than I), my selfishness, and my disdain for those who have no ears or eyes, however, I find it very hard to set aside my sorrow for those who deny God.
Selfishness is a noble word. Ask why if you are curious.

And do not feel sorry for me. I do not need pity.

Have a goodnight =)

David S.
 
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DonkDat

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I would think that this thread would be pretty frustrating since we see something you cannot see.

Not really. I don't wear my feelings in my sleeves. I get annoyed, but never frusterated.

Your take on Adam and Eve put a smile on my face since you are the first I have ever seen to basically say that God created a couple of retards. What God created was good. Adam and Eve were perfectly knowledgable in all things. They understood how to maintain the Garden and the Animals. Adam was even able to name all the animals. You make them sound like babies.

Indeed he did. He did not sit down go like "You cannot do X because of Y."

Also, God gave a simple command. DO NOT EAT. But, they disobeyed. When Satan disobeyed, his punishment was eternal. God wasn't as harsh with Adam and Eve. Infact, he was so loving that he made a plan from the beginning that would rescue us from eternal punishment.

He did not explain why they should not eat.

Do not breathe.

I did not explain that there is a poisonous gas in the air, so you will think I am crazy and not listen.

Since you obviously haven't read the whole of the OT (based on the interestings things that you have stated). Your conclusion is baseless. As for marriage. I am not telling anyone who to marry. It is just that even today. It is VERY difficult for a Christian to have a good marriage with a Non-Christian. The Christian tends to have to compromise their faith to make the marriage work. That is not opinion, it is fact.

True, I only read about 3/4. I read the New Testament twice. Marriage should not be a compromise. Marriage should be accepting and ENJOYING the differences of both people. You have to accept what the other person believes in, or it will fail.

I can't tell you exactly why this is the way it has to be done. All I know is that God has no fellowship with sin and that all that comes from him is Truth. He cannot lie nor can he blink at one sin.

Thanks for the honesty. I really appreciate that.

What God did was to make a way that our sins would be washed away. His ways are far greater then ours and his knowledge is far superior. Just as your father knew more then you did when you were a child, so too does God. IMO: If I were God, I wouldn't just forgive either. Because then people who hated me (like you) would go to heaven. What kind of heaven has people who hate?

But he is all forgiving, omnibenevolent ect. He should be able to forgive everything.

I do not hate you. I do not know you enough to hate you, or love you, or care about you. You are just a person on the internet I am having a discussion with.

The kind of heaven that has people who hate is the heaven in which God lets in everyone that repents, no matter how hideous, repulsive, disgusting crime they have commited.

Also, I would rather spend eternity on a cloud with warmth, comfort and love then eternally falling in blackness in unbearable heat with screams all around me.

Well, I would take the falling thing over a heaven of your God. I disagree too much with the points, and will choose the lesser of two evils.

Have a goodnight!

David S.
 
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DonkDat

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I am just going to answer your first post: Why do I love Him? Because He died for me. Why did he kill all those people? Because He made them; they disobeyed Him; so He punished them (It was harsh; but hey, He is God). Why are we supposed to love our neighbors? Because we are all in the same boat. They're made by God; just as you are. Sure, they sinned; but so have you. Basically you are supposed to love them because Jesus loves you.

If your children disobeyed you, will you drown them?

I have sinned under your God's law. If I was in another country, I would be fined for chewing gum.

Have a goodnight.

David S.
 
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Calminian

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Well, I am a former Christian.

I doubt it. Based on what you've shared you didn't really understand the basics.

Last year, in grade 10, I realized that Christianity was not for me. Why? Because it is both illogical and based entirely on faith. I do not like faith, because it is the absense of reason.

Bingo! You took the modern secular definition of faith over the biblical one. The term in greek is pistis and has nothing to do with blind assent. This is a modern connotation.

Here's an essential article on true biblical faith.

Fallacious Faith
Correcting an All-too-Common Misconception


My question: How do you manage to believe in something that is completely unreasonable? God asks you to love him, yet he gives us no reason to love him. God tells us to not kill people, yet he single handily wiped out every living creature when he flooded the world. Jesus tells us to love our neighbour. What if our neighbour is a murderer/rapist?

The command is actually not to murder, anther misconception. God ordained war and capitol punishment, but He did not ordain murder.

Perhaps if you understood what christianity was back when you rejected it, you wouldn't have in the first place. Just a thought.
 
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DonkDat

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I doubt it. Based on what you've shared you didn't really understand the basics.

Perhaps I did not cherry pick my bible, unlike you?

Bingo! You took the modern secular definition of faith over the biblical one. The term in greek is pistis and has nothing to do with blind assent. This is a modern connotation.
Faith, quite literally, means belief without reason.

I'll read it after my mid terms.


The command is actually not to murder, anther misconception. God ordained war and capitol punishment, but He did not ordain murder.
So your God supports war? Wait, since he is all powerful, he is the cause for everything. Every rape, every murder, everything.

Perhaps if you understood what christianity was back when you rejected it, you wouldn't have in the first place. Just a thought.
Perhaps you should stop cherry picking your religion. Then you will realize that stoning your wife for not being a virgin, cutting off your son's hands for back talking, women not speaking in church, ect are all apart of your religion. I'm not even going to talk about the not working on Sunday.

Oh wait! *hits self on the head* I must be taking it out of context again. Gosh darnit. Maybe those men 2000 years ago should of written the bible better.

Have a goodnight.

David S.
 
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Change? Good. This? Bad.
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