Question to all Christian

[mysterychristian]

Well, I am a former Christian. Last year, in grade 10, I realized that Christianity was not for me. Why? Because it is both illogical and based entirely on faith. I do not like faith, because it is the absense of reason.

My question: How do you manage to believe in something that is completely unreasonable? God asks you to love him, yet he gives us no reason to love him. God tells us to not kill people, yet he single handily wiped out every living creature when he flooded the world. Jesus tells us to love our neighbour. What if our neighbour is a murderer/rapist?

Do you really want answers to your questons?

Are they genuine?

Do you realize that in order to answer your questions which are biblically based questions, someone would have to answer you from a biblical word based standpoint, which you've said you do not believe in, it's kinda a catch 22, how are we to explain and present logic to you if you do not believe the basis for our logic and information that we wil present to you?

Or ------ are you a believer in the bible but because of where your at in your understanding at this point you cannot agree with Christian beliefs because they don't make sense with your understanding at this point?

Very important to know before I fully spend my time explaining and answering your questions. Which I will joyfully do, if your intent is that you would like to believe if logic was presented.

You are loved of God

P.S. The reason Christians get angry and emotional is that you make good points with logic and it defies there belief and if they do not know exactly how to answer you which the majority do not they have no other alternative than to get emotional and defend there beliefs. I will not defend mt beliefs, because truth is it's own best defense, if I answer your questions depending on your response, I will present you with logic and truth from a word based biblical point of view, that I gaurantee no one ever has presented to you rightly. And if you have a heart for truth I will know because those that have ears to hear, absolutely hear and experiecially know truth when it is presented.

You are logic minded which is a good thing, most Christians are not logic minded, they except things on blind faith even when it (their blind faith) defies the logic of the book they so adamatly believe in.

 

[ebia]

You cannot just make up definitions for words. If you are going to change the definition, perhaps just make up your own word?

Words change their meaning and very often have specialised meanings within particular fields. If one wishes to have a discussion within a particular field one may need to learn the particular vocabulary. That said, Christians would do well to avoid words like 'faith', 'sin', etc that are frequently misunderstood when evangelising.

You cannot trust something/someone when their existence is still in question.

But, for Christians, his existence is not in question. Clearly one can't have faith in God until one believes he exists, but faith is not the act of believing.

Thus, you must not believe in him. You cannot believe in something without proof.

If that were the case I would not believe anything outside of mathematics since virtually nothing that I believe has been proved to me.

Even if it/he/she does exist, we must still reject it due to lack of proof. If we do not, we subscribe to intellectual anarchy.

Sorry, but the certainty you desire does not exist in any field dealing with the real world.

Reason+Perception=Reality.
or
Reason+Perception=Knowledge.

Poor pseudo-maths proves nothing.

And you know this because you are inside everyone's head? I doubt I will believe in something without at least some reason to.

Of course you will have some reason to do so, but you won't have proof because virtually nothing is provable.

I have reason to believe in God, I do not have proof.
I have reason to believe the sun will come up tomorrow, I do not have proof.

The reason you exist is because your parents love each other, and decided to take it the next step further . I won't bore you with the details.

On explanation does not rule out the other; they are not exclusive. If God created me, that is a reason to love him. I know that he did, therefore the rest follows. You didn't ask for the proof that he did, you asked for the reason for loving him.

They are apart of the world.

But not a representative sample.

Unless you are saying one group of christians are liars, and the other group is right.

One group is more correct on this matter than the other.

And God said this was not history in what passages?

He doesn't have to say it isn't history any more than he has to say it isn't a recipe for fruit-cake.

No, but love hold its value. When you hand something that is priceless out to every undeserving person, then it loses its value.

That is far from self-evident.

Oh, I do know the full value of love. I know that it should not be handed out to anyone. That would make it worthless.

So you keep saying, but it's not self-evident and you haven't justified it. The value of love doesn't lie in the worthiness of the recipient.

 

[limited10]

Haha 27 is A LOT older than me =)

No, nothing traumatic has happened. I have always been facinated by reading. I also hungered to find the truth, and to learn. When I added up everything, religion wasn't at all compatible with my life. I would go as far to say that it is dangerous. Faith = anything can be justifiable. From love, to rape and torture. All you need is something to pin the blame on. Ie: Holy books.



Because if he showed himself, I would not have to demean my intelligence by having faith that he exists. Quoting a very interesting interview:

Interviewer: "Didn't [Sagan] want to believe?"
Druyan: "He didn't want to believe. He wanted to know." -- Ann Druyan (Carl Sagan's wife)



What if you murder and rape and torture? What if you do it everyday, your entire life. Will your god still forgive it? If yes, then I doubt I would want to live in heaven.



I can give you so many studies, videos, ect, proving that prayers do not work.

And starving children in various nations, who are born with AIDS, and will likely die before they are 1 years old is something they can handle? What kind of omnibenevolent being would do something this grotesque?



"Contradictions do not exists. Not in part, nor in whole."

God is creating a contradiction by doing something he has told us not to do. If you read that, and actually think, you will find how laughable this really is.



E-mazing. One of the first religious people I have every met to actualy are able to grasp this simple concept. The fly in the ointment, however, is that God said that killing is wrong. Thus self defence is invalid. So killing is always wrong.



If God is truly Omnopotent, he would of flickered his eye lid, and the devil would cease to exists.



Im not saying religion wasn't nessisary. It was useful when primitive men were unable to grasp the concept of morals. Now, that we are able to "think about thinking", we no longer need this brain candy.



I wasn't a total failure at religion. I know that by neighbour, you mean everyone. Which is why I cannot accept that. I will say again, love must be earned, not handed out freely to any worthless person that demands it.



Then Jesus' expectations insults me.

"Evil unchalleneged is evil sanctioned."



Then we have a problem. I expect, and want to, know all the answeres. Is it unrealistic? Yes. Will I attempt it? Yes. Saying something is impossible is admiting defeat.



No, I did not choose my parents. No, I did not always agree with, nor understood them. But the difference between them and God is that they explained it, using reason, until I did.



No, not the same. Refer up.

David S.

Your main problem is in your 1st sentence. Religion is incompatible with your life. It could be dangerous you say. Basically you just said I want to live in sin and don’t want to do what God commands so I am going to look for excuses and reasons not to believe.

You have a worldly view instead of a Godly view.

If you think religion is bad why don't you put some of your reading time into looking at places like Netherlands where religion is all but gone and see how well man has done without God.

Another problem you and some of the people you quoted have is that you think so highly of yourself that you feel God (the all mighty) should have to show himself to you in order for you to believe that’s just ego run amuck.

What if you murder and rape and torture? What if you do it everyday, your entire life. Will your god still forgive it? If yes, then I doubt I would want to live in heaven.

No, God will not forgive you unless you turn to him and repent your sins and ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

I can give you so many studies, videos, ect, proving that prayers do not work.

And starving children in various nations, who are born with AIDS, and will likely die before they are 1 years old is something they can handle? What kind of omnibenevolent being would do something this grotesque?

1st it is obvious that you haven’t even read the Bible yet (at least all of it). I can give you a study saying just about anything I want it to say. I know prayer works because I have seen it work in my own life. Just because you pray and ask for something doesn’t mean you will get it. I’m sure your parents don’t buy you everything you ask for and if they do they are bad parents.

As for Aids and death ect this is all part of life. Maybe God should make it so no one ever dies. Or only until they are 100 years old how about that. We all have something called free will and it is because God gave us this free will that we have so many bad things in this world, you blame God for something he isn’t responsibly for. Like I said before we can not fully understand how this universe works and why things happen if we could we would be Gods.

Maybe this will make it more clear for you. If I had a time machine and had the ability to go back to 1000 B.C. and was able to show the people of that time the internet do you think they would be able to really understand how it and why it works. Could I easily get them blogging and creating web pages? The answer is no I couldn’t there minds and education level just couldn’t comprehend the internet. It’s the same for us we just can’t and do not need to understand everything.

"Contradictions do not exists. Not in part, nor in whole."

God is creating a contradiction by doing something he has told us not to do. If you read that, and actually think, you will find how laughable this really is.

Don’t make this so easy for me. Is it ok for Husband and Wife to have sex? Sure it is. Is it ok for a 10 year old to have sex? No it’s not but the parents tell there kids don’t have sex. We have the same thing here God is God and he knows best.

E-mazing. One of the first religious people I have every met to actualy are able to grasp this simple concept. The fly in the ointment, however, is that God said that killing is wrong. Thus self defence is invalid. So killing is always wrong.

Read the bible closely here it says Murder is wrong not killing big difference.

I am going to answer the last few statements altogether.

We are not nor do we need to understand the relationship between God and the devil in order for us to believe.

God is not asking you to hug and kiss everyone you meet just be civil to them. He has governments to challenge evil and to deal with Murders and Rapists it is not your job or mine to go out and hurt down. This is a simple concept. If you want to go to heaven you will have to get past wanting all the answers. It is find to seek knowledge but some things are beyond your understanding.

I promise you that your parents did not explain every decision they made to you that you disagreed with. Your parents are also not God so for arguments sake even if they did you are in no position to demand God does.

I’ll leave you with this thought.

If you are right and there is no God then the worst thing that happens to me is that I did my best to live a good life with good morals helped a few people along the way but I am still dead.
If I am right and there is a God then you lived your life on your terms maybe were happy maybe not but when you die you are going to Hell.

Think about it.

 

[Key]

Religion, by nature, is unreasonable. That it has no objective proof, other than a 2000 year old, second hand written report, there is no evidence. A reasonable person would demand proof for something that is so life altering.

The Opening "Religion by Nature, is Unreasonable", is just a baseless assertion, and has no "Proof" to support it. Now, I wonder, do you realize you just contradicted your own stand and reasoning abilities in your opening response to me?

This is something you might want to take into consideration, when you think of "Debating" in the future, when you get your 100 posts.

So, human sacrifice is a sign of love? I guess that is partially why I am not a Christian anymore.

If that is the way you view it, then I can see why you are not a Christian anymore.

Let me know when you decide to learn about Christianity, as opposed to just objecting to it.

There are many bibles that say Kill. Prove to me why the ones that say murder is the right one.

Let me see, did you just tell me, what my own religion teaches? What a lovely amount of personal illusion of grandeurs you possess. Well I guess when you are ready to learn about Christianity, (if ever), you can always come back and talk with us again.

Lets talk about a murderer. Why should he/she get a second chance at life? That person already showed their lack of respect for human life by taking the most precious thing one can own; their life. And merely lock them up, feed them, ect.

That is a great question to bring forth to the Secular Authorities of State, and Federal Law Enforcement.

And has nothing to do with Christianity, in any way shape or form. After all, last I checked there is a "Separation of Church and State" that all the "Non-Believers" are screaming about.

As quoting various mystics, who gave you the right to judge these people? I know the correct answer, do you?

"for God has given them the Sword for a reason", Yes I know what I am talking about.

If God can forgive people that rape, torture, and murder, then perhaps heaven is not the best place to be.

I guess, but when he is willing to forgive a lying, stealing, adulterous, murdering person like you, it might sound not all that bad.

If you are not sure what I am talking about, well, that would require to know my religion to comprehend it.

Perhaps. Also that he is so unwilling to show his existence is another. If he did show his existence, then I may consider his points more deeply. Would I be a Christian? Probably not. Knowing that he exists is one thing. Following his ideals is another.

So what would be the point then?

When you are willing to learn, then please come here, as of right now, all I see is hostility.

Have a good one.

David S.

I hope you find what you seek David.

God Bless

Key

 

[MikeMcK]

My question: How do you manage to believe in something that is completely unreasonable?

You mean like the idea that one can be a "former Christian"?

God asks you to love him, yet he gives us no reason to love him.

He's given us tremendous reason to love Him. God's been very good to you.

God tells us to not kill people, yet he single handily wiped out every living creature when he flooded the world.

God said, "Thou shalt do no murder", not "The sovereign God of the Universe shall not punish wickedness".

Jesus tells us to love our neighbour. What if our neighbour is a murderer/rapist?

Have you ever hated anyone? Have you ever been angry at anyone without just cause?

 

[hlaltimus]

Well, I am a former Christian. Last year, in grade 10, I realized that Christianity was not for me. Why? Because it is both illogical and based entirely on faith. I do not like faith, because it is the absense of reason.

My question: How do you manage to believe in something that is completely unreasonable? God asks you to love him, yet he gives us no reason to love him. God tells us to not kill people, yet he single handily wiped out every living creature when he flooded the world. Jesus tells us to love our neighbour. What if our neighbour is a murderer/rapist?

I am not so sure that believing in the God of the Bible is truly contrary to reason. Believing that the moon is made of Swiss cheese would be an example of an unreasonable faith, but believing, (say during the 1800's,) that this same satellite had a crater pocked back side to it would have also involved some faith, although a faith that was based upon other attestable evidences. You, I and everyone else exercise faith all the time in countless ways because we know the predictable outcome for certain actions and events, but for which outcomes we are totally in the dark as to the real, hidden cause of them. I can't explain the creation of all substantial matter by virtue of a spoken, verbal power alone, but I do understand the outcome of Christ's speaking the words, "Lazarus, come forth!" in Lohn 11:43 as a man who must have had every cell in his body decomposed after being dead for four days did actually come forth out of his cold tomb when these words were spoken. "That isn't logically reasonable!" For whom, us or God? Calculus isn't reasonable to a kindergartener, but in good time it will be reasonable to him, only later on down the road. No doubt God understands perfectly the mechanics of all of His miraculous actions, and we will someday also understand much of what is currently incompatable to our logic when once we stand in glory and then possess perfect minds with which to compute with. Believing in the God of the Bible is reasonable, only we intellectual infants cannot always fathom just how it is reasonable. Don't throw out a good text book just because it doesn't make any sense to you for the present.

 

[LuvAslan]

Well, I am a former Christian. Last year, in grade 10, I realized that Christianity was not for me. Why? Because it is both illogical and based entirely on faith. I do not like faith, because it is the absense of reason.

My question: How do you manage to believe in something that is completely unreasonable? God asks you to love him, yet he gives us no reason to love him. God tells us to not kill people, yet he single handily wiped out every living creature when he flooded the world. Jesus tells us to love our neighbour. What if our neighbour is a murderer/rapist?

I believe in God because Just having faith that there is someone out there who loves me more than anyone can fathom is enough to get me through the rough patches in my life. I have prayed, confiding in God what I wouldn't anyone else. I have prayed and God has answered me. We can not question God's actions because we can't see the big picture.

 

[DonkDat]

I will pm you your responses because this is the wrong forum, and I am apparently not allowed to post on it.

Cheers.

 

[MikeMcK]

I will pm you your responses because this is the wrong forum, and I am apparently not allowed to post on it.

Cheers.

You're allowed to post here.

This forum is for non-Christians to ask questions.

You're a non-Christian asking a question.

 

[MethodMan]

PLease review the Stickie "READ ME OR RUE ME: Updated Rules: Questions by Non Christians
"

No debate is allowed here!

 

[solarwave]

No, but love hold its value. When you hand something that is priceless out to every undeserving person, then it loses its value.

No it doesn't. A kind word can change or save a life, kind word to everyone does not change that. That person will be grateful you did it. Why don't you keep all your kind and friendly words and acts to one person so they feel special then if you belive that. But you don't(I'm guessing), as to be kind and friendly to everyone what is what is right and still means something.

 

[phoenixgw]

Reason will get you so far in this life. Reason is a road that ultimately leads to a dead end. When you get there, remember the name Jesus. Jesus can take you to places reason can't.

Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking until you find the truth you seek. For me, the lure of Christianity was the inner peace that some people I've met in this life seem to have, regardless of the circumstances. That is something worth searching for.

I will pray that the light of Christ will shine on you, so that when your reason fails you, you might remember the name Jesus & cry out to him in your brokenness.

 

[DonkDat]

PLease review the Stickie "READ ME OR RUE ME: Updated Rules: Questions by Non Christians
"

No debate is allowed here!

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31021136&postcount=28

Hehe i noticed.

 

[DonkDat]

No it doesn't. A kind word can change or save a life, kind word to everyone does not change that. That person will be grateful you did it. Why don't you keep all your kind and friendly words and acts to one person so they feel special then if you belive that. But you don't(I'm guessing), as to be kind and friendly to everyone what is what is right and still means something.

Love will lose its value, if everyone has it. You have to think about it for a minute. If everyone had your love, what is the point of having it? It is a given, whether you rape someone, or you are a priest.

And of course a kind word can save a life, but that does not constitute as love, but perhaps compassion.

Haha I keep all my love for people that earn it. Ie my friends. Will I opening insult someone? Of course not! I will show people compassion, but I will not respect nor love someone that does not earn it.

PM me if you want to continue our discussion. I doubt the mod's want me to quote and reply like this because it looks like I am debating.

David S.

 

[DonkDat]

Reason will get you so far in this life. Reason is a road that ultimately leads to a dead end. When you get there, remember the name Jesus. Jesus can take you to places reason can't.

Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking until you find the truth you seek. For me, the lure of Christianity was the inner peace that some people I've met in this life seem to have, regardless of the circumstances. That is something worth searching for.

I will pray that the light of Christ will shine on you, so that when your reason fails you, you might remember the name Jesus & cry out to him in your brokenness.

I will pm you, because I think I will be quoting a lot in this reply, and will look like an attempt at debating.

 

[CASEY82]

Well, I am a former Christian. Last year, in grade 10, I realized that Christianity was not for me. Why? Because it is both illogical and based entirely on faith. I do not like faith, because it is the absense of reason.

My question: How do you manage to believe in something that is completely unreasonable? God asks you to love him, yet he gives us no reason to love him. God tells us to not kill people, yet he single handily wiped out every living creature when he flooded the world. Jesus tells us to love our neighbour. What if our neighbour is a murderer/rapist?

Hi, I think the whole answer to your question lies in the fact that you probably havent met with god yet. Thats the hardest thing i found when i became a christian...we try to define god, try to make him fit our human...man made logic. And then i met with him and i realised that he is bigger than us all..he is our creator - when you finally meet with him it all makes sense and you can wonder why you ever doubted. Yes god asks us to love him..but he gives us every reason to love him - he sent his only son to die so that we may be fogiven and may come to know him. His only son endured immense pain because he forsore the glory of you and me. God tells us to love your neighbour because we should - yes it is hard for us to reason this one out if they arent a nice person...but remember that they too are just lost - the devil is strong, but god is stronger! and these people have succumb to the demons inside them, they dont know that god can set them free.

If you honestly want the answer here - seek god! pray day and night and he will meet with you...then you will understand that u cannot place him in a box with a label...

 

[MikeMcK]

I will pm you, because I think I will be quoting a lot in this reply, and will look like an attempt at debating.

I just asked a simple "yes" or "no" question.

That isn't debate. Either you have, or you haven't. Which is it?

 

[DonkDat]

Umm...I believe I pm you that. Hold on, ill find it and post it here.

Edit:

You mean like the idea that one can be a "former Christian"?

Haha. No, that is a reaonable one. I am talking about loving a faceless diety that will not prove its existence.

He's given us tremendous reason to love Him. God's been very good to you.

Such as? And no, I dont think he has been very good to me. My friends, on the other hand, have made life worth living. I don't see your God at all earning my love.

God said, "Thou shalt do no murder", not "The sovereign God of the Universe shall not punish wickedness".

And my bible, including many others, say thou shall not kill. Which one is right? And why?

Have you ever hated anyone? Have you ever been angry at anyone without just cause?

With a passion. To the point where the only reason he is alive is because the police managed to save him.

Long story short, a man asked my little cousin if she wanted to have sex. She said no. He pushed her into a wall and started kissing her. I broke his nose, his arm, several fingers, black eye, bruised ribbed, and various cuts and bruises across his body.

No, I have never been angry at someone without a just cause.

Have a good day.

David S.

 

[MikeMcK]

Haha. No, that is a reaonable one.

But it isn't reasonable.

Let's say that you're eating your lunch in the park one day and a man in a wheelchair comes up and asks if he can eat with you.

The two of you talk and before long, the conversation turns to his wheelchair.

"If you don't mind my asking", you query, "how did you come to be in that wheelchair?"

"Oh, this", he responds, "Well, I was trying to beat a train one night and I didn't make it. I was hit by the train and I lost both of my legs and 18" of my large intestine".

"That's terrible", you say.

"No, not really. You see, I don't believe in trains anymore."

Ridiculous, isn't it?

No less ridiculous that someone who claims to have had a life altering, personal encounter with the risen Christ.

The Bible tells us that when we are born again, there will be observable evidence.

You can't say that you know Christ, but have no evidence.

You can't say that you're producing the evidence, but don't know Christ.

In other words, logically, there can be no such thing as an "ex-Christian". You're either born again, in which case you're not an atheist, or you're an atheist, in which case you're not born again.

I am talking about loving a faceless diety that will not prove its existence.

But God has already proven His existence.

He's proven it by the witness of creation. He's proven it by the evidence of your conscience. He's proven it by His word. He's proven it by the life and ministry of Christ.

Such as?

You have life. You have health. You have a home. YOu have friends who you say make your life worth living. You have a savior who died in order to reconcile you to God, so that you could be a child of His and not an enemy.

My friends, on the other hand, have made life worth living.

And who do you think gave you your friends?

And my bible, including many others, say thou shall not kill. Which one is right? And why?

Actually, it should read, "thou shalt do no murder". Notice that the word commonly translated as "murder" is ratsach, which means, literally, to take a life without just cause.

We never see this word or the negative language associated with in used in the context of killing in warfare, capital punishment, self defense, or divine punishment.

With a passion.

And therein lies the problem. In Matthew 5, Jesus tells us that he who hates his brother has committed murder in his heart and God will judge him as a murderer.

You ask how it is that we're to love our neighbor if he's a murderer.

The scripture I've just shown you shows that, by your own admission, you're a murderer at heart.

Most of us are murderers by this definition so we really don't have the luxury of withholding our love for murderers, unless we want to be hypocrites, too.

The truth is, apart from Christ, we're all in the same boat. Murderers, liars, adulterers, thieves, etc. We're all sinners and our sin has made each of us an enemy of God.

That's why Jesus condescended to become a man and died and was raised: so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God, no longer enemies, but children of a loving Father.

 

[DonkDat]

But it isn't reasonable.
Let's say that you're eating your lunch in the park one day and a man in a wheelchair comes up and asks if he can eat with you.
The two of you talk and before long, the conversation turns to his wheelchair.
"If you don't mind my asking", you query, "how did you come to be in that wheelchair?"
"Oh, this", he responds, "Well, I was trying to beat a train one night and I didn't make it. I was hit by the train and I lost both of my legs and 18" of my large intestine".
"That's terible", you say.
"No, not really. You see, I don't believe in trains anymore."
Ridiculous, isn't it?

One can be proven, the other cannot. God cannot be interacted with objectively. The train, however, can be. Your point is invalid, and ridiculously funny.

No less ridiculous that someone who claims to have had a life altering, personal encounter with the risen Christ.

Research the chemical dopamine. That is your answer for all so called personal encounter with christ, visions, speaking in tongue, ect.

The Bible tells us that when we are born again, there will be observable evidence.
You can't say that you know Christ, but have no evidence.
You can't say that you're producing the evidence, but don't know Christ.
In other words, logically, there can be no such thing as an "ex-Christian". You're either born again, in which case you're not an atheist, or you're an atheist, in which case you're not born again.

Observable evidence? Prove it. Mind you, only objective evidence is acceptable, so nothing subjective please.

I don't really care about the "ex christian" thing. If you want, I am an atheist. It changes nothing.

But God has already proven His existence.
He's proven it by the witness of creation. He's proven it by the evidence of your conscience. He's proven it by His word. He's proven it by the life and ministry of Christ.
You have life. You have health. You have a home. YOu have friends who you say make your life worth living. You have a savior who died in order to reconcile you to God, so that you could be a child of His and not an enemy.

Proven his existence? Really. Now THAT is hilarious. I hear religious people saying everyday that there is no proof, just faith. Show me your evidence, and I might consider taking this part seriously.

My conscienceness exists because my mind exists. My life exists because my parents had sex and had me as a child. My friend's exists because their parents had sex. Nothing you are saying is vertifiable. Prove to me that your god did this.

And who do you think gave you your friends?

My friend's parents that had sex, and thus they were born.

Actually, it should read, "thou shalt do no murder". Notice that the word commonly translated as "murder" is ratsach, which means, literally, to take a life without just cause.
We never see this word or the negative language associated with in used in the context of killing in warfare, capital punishment, self defense, or divine punishment.

You just pointed out another possible problem in your bible. If that word was translated wrong, how can we take the rest of it to be true? On faith? Hah.

And therein lies the problem. In Matthew 5, Jesus tells us that he who hates his brother has committed murder in his heart and God will judge him as a murderer.
You ask how it is that we're to love our neighbor if he's a murderer.
The scripture I've just shown you shows that, by your own admission, you're a murderer at heart.

That man was not my brother, as much as you want to believe he is. And I am a murderer at heart? Really? Protecting my little cousin, and my own life is considered murder? Very well then, then I am a murderer. And I am proud of it. Nor will I beg for forgiveness because what I did was the right thing. If your god is vindictive enough to send me to hell to be tortured for eternity, that merely proves my point about your god.

Most of us are murderers by this definition so we really don't have the luxury of withholding our love for murderers, unless we want to be hypocrites, too.
The truth is, apart from Christ, we're all in the same boat. Murderers, liars, adulterers, thieves, etc. We're all sinners and our sin has made each of us an enemy of God.

And I do not agree with your definition. Murder is when you unlawfully take someone's life. Killing is when you take someone's life with a just cause. Such as self defence. What I did was not murder, because I was defending a loved one, and my own life.

That's why Jesus condescended to become a man and died and was raised: so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God, no longer enemies, but children of a loving Father.

I find that that is an insult to my dignity. One can only be forgiven by the person one has wronged. Your God has no right to forgive me of my wrongs, because only the person I have wronged has that power. I would say more, but you moderators would most likely delete it because it would be considered debating.

David S.