Question Regarding the 'Purgatory'

[Rhamiel]

What makes you think those of us who don't believe in Purgatory will believe just by reading a piece of man-made Catholic doctrine? It is of no value to us and is wrong in two areas: First: Purgatory is a fictional place and second: Our eternal home is not Heaven (read Rev. 21).

your last point is kind of off topic
the Catholic Church teaches about the ressurection of the dead and the restoration of the earth at the end of time

 

[MoreCoffee]

What makes you think those of us who don't believe in Purgatory will believe just by reading a piece of man-made Catholic doctrine? It is of no value to us and is wrong in two areas: First: Purgatory is a fictional place and second: Our eternal home is not Heaven (read Rev. 21).

I never think that anybody will be converted by reading some text, conversion is altogether a different thing from reading. But I hope that God will warm a heart when the truth is near and bring light to eyes that are searching for it. Such is the way the gospel has always been presented and received:

And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. Acts 16:13-15 KJV
​

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

You do not have a clue what purgatory is, do you?

Clearly he does. That rhyme was what got the reformation going. Pope Leo X authorized Albretch, archbishop of Mainz, to sell indulgences to people through various agents- including Johann Tetzel- for the release of their loved ones from purgatory. This is a historical fact, and it was the reason Martin Luther wrote the 95 Theses in the first place.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I never think that anybody will be converted by reading some text, conversion is altogether a different thing from reading.

Are you serious? The finest examples of conversion in the catholic tradition- St. Anthony and especially St. Augustine- are examples of engagement with the text, whether oral (St. Anthony) or written (St. Augustine)!

Please, oh please, don't betray the patristic and monastic heritage of the church for the sake of expediency in debate with Protestants.

 

[Albion]

your last point is kind of off topic
the Catholic Church teaches about the ressurection of the dead and the restoration of the earth at the end of time

Really? I missed that item during in my earlier days. Can you elaborate or add some additional backing for this?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Clearly he does. That rhyme was what got the reformation going. Pope Leo X authorized Albretch, archbishop of Mainz, to sell indulgences to people through various agents- including Johann Tetzel- for the release of their loved ones from purgatory. This is a historical fact, and it was the reason Martin Luther wrote the 95 Theses in the first place.

Let him speak for himself

The rhyme is probably a bit mythical though I have read that Tetzel was good with rhyme. The sad thing is that Tetzel was exceeding his mandate and was disciplined - according to some sources - for his excesses. It is, however, a little bit vague since the whole thing boiled over into war and killing and murder and truth rarely survives such conditions unscathed.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Clearly he does. That rhyme was what got the reformation going. Pope Leo X authorized Albretch, archbishop of Mainz, to sell indulgences to people through various agents- including Johann Tetzel- for the release of their loved ones from purgatory. This is a historical fact, and it was the reason Martin Luther wrote the 95 Theses in the first place.

Thank you. Sometimes speaking for oneself is not the proper action.

 

[Lion King]

so if you got a bat and walked into a store and just started beating on innocent people that would not be a sins?
or what if you lie to someone?
Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust, then you have commited fornication in your heart

are you saying that God just ignores these actions now? that He does not see them and that these actions have no effect on how you are?

When was David cleansed/purified of his sins against the LORD? Was it after his death, or was it after his treachery against Uriah the Hittite?

 

[MoreCoffee]

When was David cleansed/purified of his sins against the LORD? Was it after his death, or was it after his treachery against Uriah the Hittite?

Purgatory has nothing whatsoever to do with the forgiveness of sins or with the cleansing of sins and everything to do with the change of character and of will that happens to the faithful as they become perfectly in union with Christ.


Related passages

• 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
• Mt 12:31-32.
• 2 Macc 12:46
• Job 1:5.

 

[Lion King]

Purgatory has nothing whatsoever to do with the forgiveness of sins or with the cleansing of sins and everything to do with the change of character and of will that happens to the faithful as they become perfectly in union with Christ.

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but what is purgatory exactly? I was always under the assumption that [according to the RCC tradition] purgatory was a place where all saints where made clean/pure/perfect before entering the Kingdom of God?

Anyway, are you implying that we are not currently in "perfect union" with Christ?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but what is purgatory exactly? I was always under the assumption that [according to the RCC tradition] purgatory was a place where all saints where made clean/pure/perfect before entering the Kingdom of God?

Anyway, are you implying that we are not currently in "perfect union" with Christ?

PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.



Related passages

• 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
• Mt 12:31-32.
• 2 Macc 12:46.
• Job 1:5.

To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

No, we are not yet in perfect union with Christ, we are united to him yet we sin and sin wounds and can fracture the union we have with God in Christ. Many a person, through sin of various kinds, draws away from God and ceases to seek him. Sometimes this happens for a time and they return, sometimes it happens and they do not return.

 

[SummaScriptura]

PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.

Related passages

• 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
• Mt 12:31-32.
• 2 Macc 12:46.
• Job 1:5.

I'm converted.

I find I do believe in Purgatory!

Its just that all this time I've been referring to it as resurrection, which happens in the twinkling of an eye.

You have convinced me!

 

[MoreCoffee]

[/list]I'm converted.

I find I do believe in Purgatory!

Its just that all this time I've been referring to it as resurrection, which happens in the twinkling of an eye.

You have convinced me!

RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD: The raising of the righteous, who will live forever with the risen Christ, on the last day. The eleventh article of the Christian creed states, “I believe in the resurrection of the body.” The resurrection of the body means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our “mortal bodies” (Rom 8:11) will come to life again.

The Christian Creed—the profession of our faith in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and in God’s creative, saving, and sanctifying action—culminates in the proclamation of the resurrection of the dead on the last day and in life everlasting.

There is similarity but not identity between purgatorial purification and the resurrected state. Having become perfect one will participate in the resurrection at the return of Christ.

 

[Rhamiel]

[/list]I'm converted.

I find I do believe in Purgatory!

Its just that all this time I've been referring to it as resurrection, which happens in the twinkling of an eye.

You have convinced me!

the Catholic Church does not teach how long it takes or if it can even be properly understood as being "in time" at all
lol to be honest, some of that stuff is a little too deep for me, I am not a theologian
but you can be a Catholic in good standing with the Church and believe it only takes an instant

someone else on this thread said that it is hard to show Catholics the truth because we are so indoctinated
i think that is kind of funny
i allmost never hear any Catholic talk about purgatory, it is allmost never mentioned in sermons, we talked about it a little bit when i was in sunday school, i was like 15 and all the high schoolers had sunday school together, but really it is not like a big thing we go on and on about

 

[MoreCoffee]

Shhhh Rhamiel, we're supposed to fit the stereotypes! Now you've gone and spoiled it!

 

[Lion King]

PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.



Related passages

• 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
• Mt 12:31-32.
• 2 Macc 12:46.
• Job 1:5.

Could you please, if you do not mind, go through each passage you have quoted there and briefly explain how they support the doctrine of purgatory?

It would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

What exactly is "temporal punishment" of sin?

No, we are not yet in perfect union with Christ, we are united to him yet we sin and sin wounds and can fracture the union we have with God in Christ. Many a person, through sin of various kinds, draws away from God and ceases to seek him. Sometimes this happens for a time and they return, sometimes it happens and they do not return.

Forgive me, but doesn't the bold part go against the Scriptures? I mean, the Scriptures do say that the saints are perfect in the LORD:

Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48


Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. Colossians 1:28-29


Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Matthew 19:21

Why would the LORD demand perfection if it was unattainable while on earth?

 

[Rhamiel]

Could you please, if you do not mind, go through each passage you have quoted there and briefly explain how they support the doctrine of purgatory?

It would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

do you have any translation of the Bible you prefer?
I will just use the NIV if it is all the same to you
the Gospel according to St.Matthew 12:31-32
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus says that the sin of Blasphemy will not be forgiven in this age or the "age to come"
why would Jesus point out that it would not be forgiven in the next age unless some sins could be/would be forgiven in the age to come
now the NIV uses the word "age" but the King James and the Douay Rheims uses the word "world" so the sin will not be forgiven in the next world
why point this out unless there was a common belief that some sins could be forgiven in the next world


1 Corinthians 3: 11-15
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

these verses talk about people who make mistakes, and will tested with fire, even suffer a loss, but they will still be saved
Protestants tend to say that this is about earthly troubles, Catholics see this as being about the next life
but it is not like one group uses the Bible and the other ignores it!
we just have differant interpretations


Allso, the Gospel According to St.Matthew 5:25-26
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Jesus talks about being judged, and being "thrown into prison" but only untill the last penny is paid, not forever as we all know hell is forever, but for a set time

 

[Lion King]

do you have any translation of the Bible you prefer?
I will just use the NIV if it is all the same to you
the Gospel according to St.Matthew 12:31-32
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus says that the sin of Blasphemy will not be forgiven in this age or the "age to come"
why would Jesus point out that it would not be forgiven in the next age unless some sins could be/would be forgiven in the age to come
now the NIV uses the word "age" but the King James and the Douay Rheims uses the word "world" so the sin will not be forgiven in the next world
why point this out unless there was a common belief that some sins could be forgiven in the next world

Thanks for the reply.

Forgive me if I am mis-reading you, but are you actually saying a person can be forgiven of their trespasses even after death? I'm only ask because the Scriptures seem to strongly suggest [at least to me anyway] that after death, only judgement awaits (Hebrews 9:27).

I have always been taught that our sins can only be forgiven while we are alive, and it is too late to seek for forgiveness from the LORD after death. Is this not correct?

1 Corinthians 3: 11-15
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

these verses talk about people who make mistakes, and will tested with fire, even suffer a loss, but they will still be saved
Protestants tend to say that this is about earthly troubles, Catholics see this as being about the next life
but it is not like one group uses the Bible and the other ignores it!
we just have differant interpretations

I still do not understand how the passage above is speaking with reference to purgatory as the RCC explains it? I thought that this passage from Paul was expanding on what Christ said about each and everyone of us receiving rewards in heaven according to our own labors/works? It was always my belief that those who built their houses on the foundation already laid, which is Christ, will all be saved. However, not all the saints will receive the same rewards; that is, those whose work survives will receive great rewards (Peter and the rest of the apostles etc), and those whose work burns up will be last in the Kingdom of God. In other words, many who are greatest now will be least important then, and those who seem least important now will be the greatest then.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12


Do I err in my beliefs?

Allso, the Gospel According to St.Matthew 5:25-26
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Jesus talks about being judged, and being "thrown into prison" but only untill the last penny is paid, not forever as we all know hell is forever, but for a set time

Do you mean to say that some believers will undergo punishment between death and resurrection?

If yes, which type of believer will undergo this "temporal punishment" as someone eloquently put it earlier?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Related passages

• 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
• Mt 12:31-32.
• 2 Macc 12:46.
• Job 1:5.

Could you please, if you do not mind, go through each passage you have quoted there and briefly explain how they support the doctrine of purgatory?

It would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. Speak of purification by fire; mainly of purification because the fire is somewhat incidental.
Mt 12:31-32. Speaks of the a role for forgiveness and unforgiveness in the world to come as distinct from this world.
2 Macc 12:46. Speaks of atonement for the dead and absolution from sins for the same. "Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."
Job 1:5. Speaks of prayer on behalf of and sacrifice for another.

With the passage of time, and thought about how an imperfect human being can stand in the presence of God in heaven unless his imperfection were in some way purged away, the Church came to the conclusion that the above scriptures speak, by implication and spiritually, of this transition from imperfect to perfect. Since the process is likened to purging gold and other precious things of impurities the name "purgatory" came to be attached to it. Thus the definition, which I quoted previously from the glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, says

PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.
​

To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

What exactly is "temporal punishment" of sin?

Temporal means in time, over time, of a finite duration; in short, temporary. Thus temporal punishment is punishment of a finite duration as distinct from the eternal punishment envisioned for hell.

No, we are not yet in perfect union with Christ, we are united to him yet we sin and sin wounds and can fracture the union we have with God in Christ. Many a person, through sin of various kinds, draws away from God and ceases to seek him. Sometimes this happens for a time and they return, sometimes it happens and they do not return.

Forgive me, but doesn't the bold part go against the Scriptures? I mean, the Scriptures do say that the saints are perfect in the LORD:

[1] Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

[2] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. Colossians 1:28-29
​

[3]Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Matthew 19:21


Why would the LORD demand perfection if it was unattainable while on earth?

The passages you cited speak of

1. God's perfection - urging Christ's disciples to seek God's perfection.
2. The final perfection of Christians when they are presented before God in heaven.
3. Perfection in a temporal and earthly sense through the giving away of one's worldly wealth in order to follow the Lord - this is the basis for the vow of poverty taken by many who choose to live a religious life in a community of the faithful who have vowed to live a life of poverty, chastity, and obedient.

I added [red numbers] to the verses in your post that correspond to the numbers in my reply above.

 

[Lion King]

1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. Speak of purification by fire; mainly of purification because the fire is somewhat incidental.

Does 1 Cor 3:15 and 1 Pet 1:7 talk of PURIFICATION? I thought the passage speaks about our works/labors and faith being tested by fire to see whether they are worthy of a reward in heaven? No?

Mt 12:31-32. Speaks of the a role for forgiveness and unforgiveness in the world to come as distinct from this world.

Doesn't your interpretation contradict other passages in the Scriptures? For instance, Hebrews 9:27 states that each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment. Are you saying there is a possibility of forgiveness even after death?

If so, could you please provide other passages in the Scriptures that suggest this?

2 Macc 12:46. Speaks of atonement for the dead and absolution from sins for the same. "Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."

Is Maccabees part of the Scriptures? I'm sorry, but I haven't read the book of Maccabees to hold any opinions on it.

Job 1:5. Speaks of prayer on behalf of and sacrifice for another.

James also seem to touch on this:

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

However, both Job and James do not mention about this being extended to dead people.

Unless, of course, I am mistaken...I do confess, I know next to nothing when it comes to the Word of God.

With the passage of time, and thought about how an imperfect human being can stand in the presence of God in heaven unless his imperfection were in some way purged away, the Church came to the conclusion that the above scriptures speak, by implication and spiritually, of this transition from imperfect to perfect. Since the process is likened to purging gold and other precious things of impurities the name "purgatory" came to be attached to it. Thus the definition, which I quoted previously from the glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, says

PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.​

As I said earlier, I still do not understand how the passage above is speaking with reference to purgatory as the RCC explains it? I thought that those passages from Paul was expanding on what Christ said about each and everyone of us receiving rewards in heaven according to our own labors/works?

Temporal means in time, over time, of a finite duration; in short, temporary. Thus temporal punishment is punishment of a finite duration as distinct from the eternal punishment envisioned for hell.

As I asked your colleague earlier: do you mean to say that some believers will undergo punishment between death and resurrection?

If yes, which type of believer will undergo this "temporal punishment" as someone eloquently put it earlier?

The passages you cited speak of

1. God's perfection - urging Christ's disciples to seek God's perfection.
2. The final perfection of Christians when they are presented before God in heaven.
3. Perfection in a temporal and earthly sense through the giving away of one's worldly wealth in order to follow the Lord - this is the basis for the vow of poverty taken by many who choose to live a religious life in a community of the faithful who have vowed to live a life of poverty, chastity, and obedient.

I added [red numbers] to the verses in your post that correspond to the numbers in my reply above.

Fair enough.

However, this passage below seem to suggest that all saints have a perfect union with Christ and with each other right as we speak (One body in complete unity, so to speak):

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. John 17:20-23

Am I wrong in believing so?