Question Regarding the 'Purgatory'

[SummaScriptura]

Here's a great book on the history of the Purgatory idea which I can heartily recommend.

[c] [/c]

 

[revrobor]

It's so hard to get Roman Catholics to accept the truth after they have been indoctrinated by that church.

 

[SummaScriptura]

It's so hard to get Roman Catholics to accept the truth after they have been indoctrinated by that church.

You sound as if that's a problem unique to Catholics. Really? All the Protestants you know are open to reason on doctrines you know to be wrong but which they hold near and dear?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It's so hard to get Roman Catholics to accept the truth after they have been indoctrinated by that church.

You know, Catholic scholars are some of the most open and ecumenical voices in the church today, and have been since Vatican II. I don't know of many scholars with the broad vision, ecumenical instinct, and open-mindedness of Joseph Lortz, Daniel Olivier, and Peter Manns (Catholic scholars of Luther), Raymond Brown, John Meier, and Brant Pitre (Catholic biblical scholars), and the twentieth century's Catholic theologians and historians, including Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Henri de Lubac, Jean Danielou, Karl Rahner, Yves Congar, Bernard Lonergan, Louis Bouyer, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Benedict XIV.

Now can we get back to the question at hand?

 

[Albion]

You sound as if that's a problem unique to Catholics. Really? All the Protestants you know are open to reason on doctrines you know to be wrong but which they hold near and dear?

The point is that these Protestant churches do not have the power to intimidate uncooperative members like a church that claims to be the only 'real' church, with a leader who is styled as infallible and the spokesman for Christ on Earth, can.

 

[Albion]

Knee-V makes a good point here. It is mildly assuring to Protestants to dismiss the Purgatory doctrine by saying "its in the Apocrypha and not in the Bible." Truth is, the Purgatory doctrine is systematically developed using logical assumptions which is then supported by proof-texting from the Apocrypha but also from the New Testament.

One cannot dismiss the Purgatory doctrine by simply saying "I don't accept the Apocrypha", for one simple reason:

1. The Apocrypha does not support the Purgatory doctrine.

So, the Apocrypha is off the hook.

However, we have still not adequately responded to Catholic proof-texting from the NewTestament, and the doctrine should be refuted on another basis:

2. The New Testament does not support the Purgatory doctrine.

Actually, both of those points were made early in the discussion.

 

[revrobor]

You know, Catholic scholars are some of the most open and ecumenical voices in the church today, and have been since Vatican II. I don't know of many scholars with the broad vision, ecumenical instinct, and open-mindedness of Joseph Lortz, Daniel Olivier, and Peter Manns (Catholic scholars of Luther), Raymond Brown, John Meier, and Brant Pitre (Catholic biblical scholars), and the twentieth century's Catholic theologians and historians, including Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Henri de Lubac, Jean Danielou, Karl Rahner, Yves Congar, Bernard Lonergan, Louis Bouyer, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Benedict XIV.

Now can we get back to the question at hand?

It would be better for you if you put your faith in God, His Bible and His Son Jesus rather than "Catholic scholars" who have a tendency to come up with answers that support Catholic doctrine.

 

[dysert]

Yes, and this is probably the best argument against purgatory. Temporal punishment ends at death, which definitively takes care of all temporal consequences of sin.

Now can we get back to the question at hand?

What is the question at hand? We've got an argument against purgatory and none (that I can recall) for purgatory (unless you count "that's what the Catholic church teaches"). Seems like we're missing the biblical support for purgatory.

 

[Rubiks]

purgatory does not exist. It is never mentioned in the Bible. Purgatory is atoning for your own sins. The Bible said Jesus paid the whole price.

 

[Rubiks]

double post

 

[Albion]

Seems like we're missing the biblical support for purgatory.

It's missing.

What's the problem?

 

[Minjoshua32]

Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

 

[Rhamiel]

Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

that is not what I am saying at all

 

[Albion]

that is not what I am saying at all

?? It looks to me that Minjoshua's post wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Is there some hint in it that shows there was some particular poster in mind? I guess it doesn't matter, but you got my curiousity up.

 

[Lion King]

hello my dear sister in christ
the book of Revelations says that no unclean thing can enter heaven
now we have been saved by Jesus Christ, but we are not yet perfect

we still struggle
we still have little vanities and vices
maybe someone has hurt us and we have trouble forgiving them?
now if we still have trouble with this in life, does that mean when we go to heaven we will still have these temptations? still have hurt feelings and bad habits?
we know we will not because the Bible says no unclean thing can enter heaven, this is in Revelations chapter 21, but we still have problems with these things untill our last breath on earth
so that means sometime between death and heaven there is an event where God takes away all of those bad things so we can be happy in heaven with Him
Catholics call this Purgatory because we like to give stuff latin names

Are you subtly saying that Christ's blood does not make us purify us from all sin? Are you saying that, even after being reconciled with God through the sacrifice of Christ, we are still imperfect before the LORD's eyes?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So what is this purgatory that you are all so sure does not exist?

 

[SummaScriptura]

So what is this purgatory that you are all so sure does not exist?

An idea created by men without the input of the Holy Spirit.

 

[revrobor]

An idea created by men without the input of the Holy Spirit.

"...and the truth shall set you free".

 

[MoreCoffee]

An idea created by men without the input of the Holy Spirit.

What idea?

 

[SummaScriptura]

What idea?

A fantasy about repaying God for your sins developed to give certain men a tool to extort monies from the uneducated.