Question Regarding the 'Purgatory'

[MoreCoffee]

A fantasy about repaying God for your sins developed to give certain men a tool to extort monies from the uneducated.

That is a silly idea. what makes you think it has anything to do with purgatory?

 

[SummaScriptura]

As soon as a coin in the coffer rings
The soul from purgatory springs

.

 

[Tangible]

I wonder if it rhymed that well in German ...

 

[SummaScriptura]

I wonder if it rhymed that well in German ...

I suspect moreso.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Originally Posted by Johann Tetzel

As soon as a coin in the coffer rings
The soul from purgatory springs
​

.

You do not have a clue what purgatory is, do you?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Was Catholic. Now no longer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Was Catholic. Now no longer.

But you haven't got a clue what purgatory is, do you?

 

[Rhamiel]

Are you subtly saying that Christ's blood does not make us purify us from all sin? Are you saying that, even after being reconciled with God through the sacrifice of Christ, we are still imperfect before the LORD's eyes?

so if you got a bat and walked into a store and just started beating on innocent people that would not be a sins?
or what if you lie to someone?
Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust, then you have commited fornication in your heart

are you saying that God just ignores these actions now? that He does not see them and that these actions have no effect on how you are?

 

[Albion]

so if you got a bat and walked into a store and just started beating on innocent people that would not be a sins?
or what if you lie to someone?
Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust, then you have commited fornication in your heart

are you saying that God just ignores these actions now? that He does not see them and that these actions have no effect on how you are?

Well, we are all sinners, are we not? We all commit sin. Perhaps not whaling on someone with a baseball bat, but less terrifying actions like the looking with lust example you gave are part of everyone's lives.

So there is really no issue between you two when it comes to sin. It's only a matter or what God does with us as a result. Did he forgive us and pay the price for our sins or not? I'd say yes--which is apparently what Lion King was saying.

I didn't get the idea that anyone said that sin is of no consequence. If that were so, Christ would not have had to die for us in the first place.

 

[SummaScriptura]

But you haven't got a clue what purgatory is, do you?

I do know what Purgatory IS. Purgatory IS not!

 

[SummaScriptura]

so if you got a bat and walked into a store and just started beating on innocent people that would not be a sins?
or what if you lie to someone?
Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust, then you have commited fornication in your heart

are you saying that God just ignores these actions now? that He does not see them and that these actions have no effect on how you are?

Forgive me, Rhamiel. I know you are a decent person and seek to please Christ. However, this sort of rationalization that you've posed here hits me like Medieval Scholastic Sophistry. No insult intended, its merely how I perceive it. I cannot get to a belief in Purgatory by means of logical deductions.

 

[Rhamiel]

Well, we are all sinners, are we not? We all commit sin. Perhaps not whaling on someone with a baseball bat, but less terrifying actions like the looking with lust example you gave are part of everyone's lives.

So there is really no issue between you two when it comes to sin. It's only a matter or what God does with us as a result. Did he forgive us and pay the price for our sins or not? I'd say yes--which is apparently what Lion King was saying.

I didn't get the idea that anyone said that sin is of no consequence. If that were so, Christ would not have had to die for us in the first place.

my point is that we have weaknesses and temptations untill the moment of our death
but in heaven we will not have any temptations or weaknesses
the Bible says that nothing impure can enter heaven
so between death and heaven, God removes all of those weaknesses from us
He finishes the work of sanctification
It is God who does the work

 

[Albion]

my point is that we have weaknesses and temptations untill the moment of our death

Well, OK. Did anyone say that we don't????

And BTW, it seems to me that you said more than that. You questioned whether killing someone with a bat would go unnoticed by God. That's quite a different matter.

but in heaven we will not have any temptations or weaknesses
the Bible says that nothing impure can enter heaven
so between death and heaven, God removes all of those weaknesses from us

Illogical. There is nothing there that indicates that the removal will be be between death and heaven.

We contend that the Bible is correct and that Christ took away the sins of the world and opened the gates of heaven for sinners by his sacrifice.

Or, to put it another way, there is no reason to suppose that God does not just remove all weaknesses and temptations by taking us from this world to one where such things do not exist.

Purgatory is a hypothetical solution to a non-problem.

 

[dysert]

my point is that we have weaknesses and temptations untill the moment of our death
but in heaven we will not have any temptations or weaknesses
the Bible says that nothing impure can enter heaven
so between death and heaven, God removes all of those weaknesses from us
He finishes the work of sanctification
It is God who does the work

That's a very good and succinct way of putting it. And I agree with everything except what I highlighted in red. Could it not be that God removes all of those weaknesses from us *at* death instead of *between* death and heaven?

 

[Knee V]

This is concerning some of the conversations about purgatory that took place at the pseudo-council of Florence:

When giving in this answer (June 14th), Bessarion explained the difference of the Greek and Latin doctrine on this subject. The Latins, he said, allow that now, and until the day of the last judgment, departed souls are purified by fire, and are thus liberated from their sins; so that, he who has sinned the most will be a longer time undergoing purification, whereas he whose sins are less will be absolved the sooner, with the aid of the Church; but in the future life they allow the eternal, and not the purgatorial fire. Thus the Latins receive both the temporal and the eternal fire, and call the first the purgatorial fire. On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The Greeks also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss. But the Latins, agreeing with the Greeks in the first point, do not allow the last one, affirming that the souls of saints have already received their full heavenly reward. [4]

In explanation of the Apostle's words, they quoted the commentary of S. John Chrysostom, who, using the word fire, gives it the meaning of an eternal, and not temporary, purgatorial fire; explains the words wood, hay, stubble, in the sense of bad deeds, as food for the eternal fire; the word day, as meaning the day of the last judgment; and the words saved yet so as by fire, as meaning the preservation and continuance of the sinner's existence while suffering punishment. Keeping to this explanation, they reject the other explanation given by S. Augustine, founded on the words shall be saved, which he understood in the sense of bliss, and consequently gave quite another meaning to all this quotation. "It is very right to suppose," wrote the Orthodox teachers, "that the Greeks should understand Greek words better than foreigners. Consequently, if we cannot prove that any one of those saints, who spoke the Greek language, explains the Apostle's words, written in Greek, in a sense different to that given by the blessed John, then surely we must agree with the majority of these Church celebrities." The expressions sothenai, sozesthai, and soteria, used by heathen writers, mean in our language continuance, existence (diamenein, einai.) The very idea of the Apostle's words shows this. As fire naturally destroys, whereas those who are doomed to eternal fire are not destroyed, the Apostle says that they continue in fire, preserving and continuing their existence, though at the same time they are being burned by fire. To prove the truth of such an explanation of these words by the Apostle, (ver. 11, 15,) they make the following remarks: The Apostle divides all that is built upon the proposed foundation into two parts, never even hinting of any third, middle part. By gold, silver, stones, he means virtues; by hay, wood, stubble, that which is contrary to virtue, i. e., bad works. "Your doctrine," they continued to tell the Latins, "would perhaps have had some foundation if he (the Apostle) had divided bad works into two kinds, and bad said that one kind is purified by God, and the other worthy of eternal punishment. But he made no such division; simply naming the works entitling man to eternal bliss, i.e., virtues, and those meriting eternal punishment, i.e., sins. After which he says, 'Every man's work shall be made manifest,’ and shows when this will happen, pointing to that last day, when God will render unto all according to their merits: 'For the day,' he says, 'shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire.' Evidently, this is the day of the second coming of Christ, the coming age, the day so called in a particular sense, or as opposed to the present life, which is but night. This is the day when He will come in glory, and a fiery stream shall precede Him. (Dan. vii. 10; Ps. 1. 3; xcvii. 3; 2 S. Pet. iii. 12, 15.) All this shows us that S. Paul speaks here of the last day, and of the eternal fire prepared for sinners. 'This fire,' says he, 'shall try every man's work of what sort it is,' enlightening some works, and burning others with the workers. But when the evil deed will be destroyed by fire, the evil doers will not be destroyed also, but will continue their existence in the fire, and suffer eternally. Whereas then the Apostle does not divide sins here into mortal and venial, but deeds in general into good and bad; whereas the time of this event is referred by him to the final day, as by the Apostle Peter also; whereas, again, he attributes to the fire the power of destroying all evil actions, but not the doers; it becomes evident that the Apostle Paul does not speak of purgatorial fire, which, even in your opinion, extends not over all evil actions, but over some of the minor sins. But these words also, 'If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss,' (zemiothesetai, i.e., shall lose,) shows that the Apostle speaks of the eternal tortures; they are deprived of the Divine light: whereas this cannot be spoken of those purified, as you say; for they not only do not lose anything, but even acquire a great deal, by being freed from evil, and clothed in purity and candour."

The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory

 

[MoreCoffee]

I do know what Purgatory IS. Purgatory IS not!

As I said before, You haven't got a clue what purgatory is.

 

[MoreCoffee]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607 (954, 1472)

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
​

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: (958, 1371, 1479)

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
​

 

[Albion]

No insult intended, its merely how I perceive it. I cannot get to a belief in Purgatory by means of logical deductions.

I thought this was a good point. Most of the arguments in favor of Purgatory ARE from reasoning. And that's how it has to be since the Scriptural evidence--and interestingly enough, the evidence from Tradition, too--is so weak. Surely we do not dogmatize ideas that cannot be proved from either source (assuming for the moment the validity of the second of those), but only from reasoning.

 

[revrobor]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607 (954, 1472)

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
​

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: (958, 1371, 1479)

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
​

What makes you think those of us who don't believe in Purgatory will believe just by reading a piece of man-made Catholic doctrine? It is of no value to us and is wrong in two areas: First: Purgatory is a fictional place and second: Our eternal home is not Heaven (read Rev. 21).

 

[Rhamiel]

That's a very good and succinct way of putting it. And I agree with everything except what I highlighted in red. Could it not be that God removes all of those weaknesses from us *at* death instead of *between* death and heaven?

so you mean like the moment before you die all of this happens?
i do not see anything in the Bible that would support that belief