Question on Noah's Ark

[Abraxos]

Actually, why not show us the way we do that exactly? The problem right out of the gate with your proposal is that who says there were mutations at all? How would we know that if genetics were not the same? We don't have any DNA from the time of the dinos! To merely look at present nature mutations is to do no more than assume the present nature existed then.

Since all dating is also based on assuming a same nature in the past (example that there was radioactive decay) you can have no dates UNLESS you FIRST prove nature and laws were the same.

The accumulation of mutations in the human genome is widely acknowledged by geneticists, and it would make sense with the many defects and other things seen today. Deducible methods are based on calculated approximates on what we do have. A good example of deduction would be the use of carbon-14 dating in dinosaur permineralised bones.

It would be probably best to give me brief summary on your position on the matter because I'm not quite sure I understand your point.

 

[AV1611VET]

We don't have any DNA from the time of the dinos! To merely look at present nature mutations is to do no more than assume the present nature existed then.

I like to think that our DNA was a flat double-helix before the Fall; and as a consequence of the Fall, God simply twisted it into the shape it is now.

In other words, we literally live in a twisted state today.

 

[AV1611VET]

It would be probably best to give me brief summary on your position on the matter because I'm not quite sure I understand your point.

Dad & I both believe that things in the past were radically different.

We differ on details, so I can only speak for myself, but we both agree that there was no death prior to the Fall.

I'm more speculative, I think, than dad; believing that DNA was flat, the sun may have been red and not yellow, water on the moon, it didn't rain, the forbidden fruit was manna and off-limits to Adam & Eve (it was food for the angels who came here), and Adam & Eve spoke a modified Jacobean English.

I hope that helps some!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

When you consider humans to each other, it is staggering how similar we are to one another. If you exclude all recent mutations like sickle cell anemia, or hereditary blindness, or all those bad things, it would be perfectly possible to have all the world's diversity into a single human couple, let alone four couples.

I actually think genetics is one of the more powerful arguments against the molecules-to-man theory. When you look at the genes of things today, they had been transmitted from to generation to generation, and over time there is an accumulation of mutations which is destroying the genes, not making it better. If there is a build up of such mutations in the human genome, then in the past the human genome must have been much more pure or superior. These mutations are building up in populations over time which explain the abnormalities and deficiencies seen today. This is something that is widely acknowledged by geneticists.

sickle cell anemia was only discovered in 1910, that does not mean it did not exist before then.

John 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.

Heredity - Wikipedia

I think that the part in bold is begging the question or argument.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The accumulation of mutations in the human genome is widely acknowledged by geneticists, and it would make sense with the many defects and other things seen today. Deducible methods are based on calculated approximates on what we do have. A good example of deduction would be the use of carbon-14 dating in dinosaur permineralised bones.

It would be probably best to give me brief summary on your position on the matter because I'm not quite sure I understand your point.

"Carbon-14 makes up about 1 part per trillion of the carbon atoms around us, and this proportion remains roughly constant due to continual production of carbon-14 from cosmic rays. The half life of carbon-14 is about 5,700 years, so if we measure the proportion of C-14 in a sample and discover it's half a part per trillion, i.e. half the original level, we know the sample is around one half life or 5,700 years old.

So by measuring the C-14 level we work out how many half lives old the sample is and therefore how old it is. The trouble is that after 40,000 years there is under 1% of the original C-14 left, and it becomes too hard to measure it accurately. This isn't a fundamental limit as more accurate measurements could go further back, but at some point you'd simply run out of C-14 atoms. With our current kit 40-50K years is about the limit."

Why is carbon dating limit only 40,000 years?

 

[Abraxos]

sickle cell anemia was only discovered in 1910, that does not mean it did not exist before then.

John 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.

Heredity - Wikipedia

I think that the part in bold is begging the question or argument.

Sickle cell anemia came into existence due to mutations in the human genome. Over time mutations occur due to environmental factors and even dietary choices among other things. Point is, sickle cell anemia did not exist once upon a time. And when you consider the variations in the human race, there is not really all that big of a difference really worth noting.

"Carbon-14 makes up about 1 part per trillion of the carbon atoms around us, and this proportion remains roughly constant due to continual production of carbon-14 from cosmic rays. The half life of carbon-14 is about 5,700 years, so if we measure the proportion of C-14 in a sample and discover it's half a part per trillion, i.e. half the original level, we know the sample is around one half life or 5,700 years old.

So by measuring the C-14 level we work out how many half lives old the sample is and therefore how old it is. The trouble is that after 40,000 years there is under 1% of the original C-14 left, and it becomes too hard to measure it accurately. This isn't a fundamental limit as more accurate measurements could go further back, but at some point you'd simply run out of C-14 atoms. With our current kit 40-50K years is about the limit."

Why is carbon dating limit only 40,000 years?

This poses a problem for the theory of evolution because if C-14 is found in dinosaur bones then the bones are not millions of years old. This is why deduction is a pretty reliable calculation as we can determine an approximate through the limitations placed on it.

 

[dad]

I like to think that our DNA was a flat double-helix before the Fall; and as a consequence of the Fall, God simply twisted it into the shape it is now.

In other words, we literally live in a twisted state today.

You might have something. But I guess there is no smoking gun...no pre flood DNA for them to check and compare. So we all just guess. I find it sinister when science guesses and calls it truth and known and fact though.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Either that, or God cleaned up the mess Himself.

That would be my guess; ruin/restoration; except the bible leaves out the restoration part. Evidence of this is the new theory that dogs are not that closely related to wolves and that they 'suddenly' appeared, conveniently along with modern man.

 

[JD16]

Evidence of this is the new theory that dogs are not that closely related to wolves and that they 'suddenly' appeared, conveniently along with modern man.

If that is so, then why are they able to breed and produce offsprings?

Wolfdog - Wikipedia

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Sickle cell anemia came into existence due to mutations in the human genome. Over time mutations occur due to environmental factors and even dietary choices among other things. Point is, sickle cell anemia did not exist once upon a time. And when you consider the variations in the human race, there is not really all that big of a difference really worth noting.


This poses a problem for the theory of evolution because if C-14 is found in dinosaur bones then the bones are not millions of years old. This is why deduction is a pretty reliable calculation as we can determine an approximate through the limitations placed on it.

That someone with that disease is not a big problem will disagree with you as would any intelligent person.

The are other ways for C-14 to get into dead bones. Google And, I do not know why Dino cells or flesh survived as long as it did. If such flesh or cells can survive a thousand years or more --- it may be able to survive longer using the same means.

You missed the main point, that other dating methods are used on things expected to be older.

Young-Earth creationism and the intensity of volcanism

Young-Earth Creationist 'Dating' of a Mt. St. Helens Dacite: The Failure of Austin and Swenson to Recognize Obviously Ancient Minerals


Young-Earth Creationist 'Dating' of a Mt. St. Helens Dacite: The Failure of Austin and Swenson to Recognize Obviously Ancient Minerals

 

[Abraxos]

That someone with that disease is not a big problem will disagree with you as would any intelligent person.

The are other ways for C-14 to get into dead bones. Google And, I do not know why Dino cells or flesh survived as long as it did. If such flesh or cells can survive a thousand years or more --- it may be able to survive longer using the same means.

You missed the main point, that other dating methods are used on things expected to be older.

Young-Earth creationism and the intensity of volcanism

Young-Earth Creationist 'Dating' of a Mt. St. Helens Dacite: The Failure of Austin and Swenson to Recognize Obviously Ancient Minerals


Young-Earth Creationist 'Dating' of a Mt. St. Helens Dacite: The Failure of Austin and Swenson to Recognize Obviously Ancient Minerals

When I talk about the variations seen in humans today and the differences Noah and his family had, there are basically no differences. Going off your list for example, Noah and his family had earlobes - not a problem, so do we. Noah and his family were male and female - not a problem, so do we. Noah and his family had feelings and sensibilities - not a problem, so do we, some more so than others, apparently. Point is, these variations were present in Noah and his family and not a problem of being passed down to us. Does that make any sense to you?

Carbon-14 is pretty simple, if it's found in dinosaur bones then the bones are not millions of years old. Some usually have a knee-jerk reaction to this by complaining that the samples were contaminated somehow, which is unlikely given that modern laboratories are equipped with sophisticated procedures to ensure that results are not contaminated before and after. One example, an experiment was performed with six diamonds from different areas from around the world, not errors or any evidence of contamination, and all had C-14 in them. There was even a challenge made where a YEC offered tens of thousands of dollars to an evolutionist to test the dinosaur bones himself checking for C-14. He refused.

My point was that C-14 has limitations which doesn't leave much to room to make any grand assumptions like millions and billions of years.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If that is so, then why are they able to breed and produce offsprings?

Wolfdog - Wikipedia

You'll have to ask a scientist.

 

[dad]

Noah and his family had earlobes - not a problem, so do we. Noah and his family were male and female - not a problem, so do we. Noah and his family had feelings and sensibilities - not a problem, so do we, some more so than others, apparently. Point is, these variations were present in Noah and his family and not a problem of being passed down to us. Does that make any sense to you?

They forgot to pass me the genes to live 1000 years.

 

[dad]

That would be my guess; ruin/restoration; except the bible leaves out the restoration part..

Can you remind us where the part is that wasn't left out about the world before creation being ruined?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

When I talk about the variations seen in humans today and the differences Noah and his family had, there are basically no differences. Going off your list for example, Noah and his family had earlobes - not a problem, so do we. Noah and his family were male and female - not a problem, so do we. Noah and his family had feelings and sensibilities - not a problem, so do we, some more so than others, apparently. Point is, these variations were present in Noah and his family and not a problem of being passed down to us. Does that make any sense to you?

Carbon-14 is pretty simple, if it's found in dinosaur bones then the bones are not millions of years old. Some usually have a knee-jerk reaction to this by complaining that the samples were contaminated somehow, which is unlikely given that modern laboratories are equipped with sophisticated procedures to ensure that results are not contaminated before and after. One example, an experiment was performed with six diamonds from different areas from around the world, not errors or any evidence of contamination, and all had C-14 in them. There was even a challenge made where a YEC offered tens of thousands of dollars to an evolutionist to test the dinosaur bones himself checking for C-14. He refused.

My point was that C-14 has limitations which doesn't leave much to room to make any grand assumptions like millions and billions of years.

Are you saying they had all the genetic diseases themselves?

The contamination is in nature, not a lab.

Again, you are missing the main point that other dating methods are used too. There are many indicators, methods and other data like age of surrounding rock to date things all doing a collaboration.

 

[Abraxos]

They forgot to pass me the genes to live 1000 years.

Same genes, different conditions so to speak.

I'm still at a loss on what it is that you believe in exactly. There really is no need to be shy about giving a summary on your position. You think science evil, right?

 

[USincognito]

This poses a problem for the theory of evolution because if C-14 is found in dinosaur bones then the bones are not millions of years old.

No it does not present a problem for evolution. Evolution is not dependent on when non-avian dinosaurs went extinct.

 

[USincognito]

There was even a challenge made where a YEC offered tens of thousands of dollars to an evolutionist to test the dinosaur bones himself checking for C-14. He refused.

Horner was right to reject participating in Enyart's stunt. If Enyart wants to put his money where his big mouth is, he should buy his own dinosaur fossil and test it himself.

 

[FredVB]

To avoid the funneling effect, it would take multiple humans or whatever within a species to gain all that is needed in the first place to reproduce without serious problems. In fact, I think I once heard the same objection raised for Noah's Ark. That being the limit of people on the Ark would cause a funneling effect of DNA. I do not remember the technical term.

The technical term is often illustrated by a bottleneck of too many people trying to go through the same line or door at the same time at a store.

So, how did the limited number of people on Noah's Ark create enough variation to account for the many variations in the human race scientifically speaking?

This question is assuming evolution is true, and that there was not a special creation which would have all the genes or DNA necessary to produce all the types of dogs that exists today.

Young Earth Creationists would often answer this question by claiming that one pair of dogs on the Ark had all the kinds or types of dogs in their DNA or genes.

Personally, I simply admit that I do not have an answer. And, this is one of the many questions, I have put on the back burner to ask God about when I get to heaven. Since, my mere 170 IQ is no where near that of God, I have no problem waiting for him to answer when I get there.

The simple answer is understandable for any of us trusting God. In the perfection of the beginning, there was perfect genetic makeup of each individual and apparently not matching pairs of genes for characteristics at first. There were not too many mutations before the flood, though some few, including that which caused giantism. More mutations were behind greater variation and development of different characteristics of the separate human ethnicities later. We are still one race, except in rather political understandings, and our differences are not so great as some would suggest, humans are all closer than how close separate breeds of dogs are.

The point is that with greatly fewer genes that would have defects resulting, and individuals not being prey to predators, that much fewer individuals were needed to have a sustainable population develop.

 

[SkyWriting]

To avoid the funneling effect, it would take multiple humans or whatever within a species to gain all that is needed in the first place to reproduce without serious problems. In fact, I think I once heard the same objection raised for Noah's Ark. That being the limit of people on the Ark would cause a funneling effect of DNA. I do not remember the technical term.

The technical term is often illustrated by a bottleneck of too many people trying to go through the same line or door at the same time at a store.

So, how did the limited number of people on Noah's Ark create enough variation to account for the many variations in the human race scientifically speaking?

This question is assuming evolution is true, and that there was not a special creation which would have all the genes or DNA necessary to produce all the types of dogs that exists today.

Young Earth Creationists would often answer this question by claiming that one pair of dogs on the Ark had all the kinds or types of dogs in their DNA or genes.

Personally, I simply admit that I do not have an answer. And, this is one of the many questions, I have put on the back burner to ask God about when I get to heaven. Since, my mere 170 IQ is no where near that of God, I have no problem waiting for him to answer when I get there.

Note: A local flood position would not have this problem since other humans and animals could survive where there was not a local flood.

The animals were not "natural" randomly picked by Noah. God directed specific animals
in pairs and groups to the Ark. He not only designed every moment of each animals life
up till then, but He also orchestrated each moment afterward. This is where people of
every IQ drop the ball. They mix natural thinking with acts of God and lose perspective
that God does not have to deal with any uncertainty.