Question on CS Lewis

dms1972

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i think the op is right to raise some of her points, even if she is wrong about Lewis.

It does no harm to check what Scripture says about the Lion of Judah, and not just assume lewis is right in everything or to derive our understanding of Christ, from Aslan, rather than the Bible.

In one of the stories its when they have breakfast with the Lamb who changes into Aslan near the end of Voyage of the Dawn Treader, that two of the children - Lucy and Edmund, are told they won't be coming back to
Narnia and must learn of Aslan's name in our world. I think this is very significant, but i am not sure what everyone makes of it.
 
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Xalith

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i think the op is right to raise some of her points, even if she is wrong about Lewis.

It does no harm to check what scripture says about the Lion of Judah.

That's basically what I said. Test/Discern the message but don't judge the messenger.

But yes, Scripture really does mention the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, etc. It's very plain to see who John was talking about in Revelation 5:5.

It's one of the core concepts of Christianity, even. He came down as a Lamb, and was slain, and later returns.... as a Lion to dispossess the land of the usurpers.
 
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zippy2006

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I dont know why CS lewis is so revered when he couldnt even get a simple thing right and turned scripture into a fantasy in which everything is opposite.

Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder.
 
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dms1972

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Here is a website that explains just some of it. I just thought it was odd about him and also don't understand why his name is put up on the Theology forum.

http://www.patheos.com/blo time to read thisgs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofcslewis/
You're not sure why Lewis wrote what he did, i'm not sure reading some stuff about Cs Lewis, why they write what they write about him.

I agree he isn't a theologian, his main area of expertise was as a literary critic / historian, and also a philosopher (which he had a degree in, and taught early in his university career) and also apologetics, but some of what he wrote does overlap into theology.
 
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dms1972

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That's basically what I said. Test/Discern the message but don't judge the messenger.

But yes, Scripture really does mention the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, etc. It's very plain to see who John was talking about in Revelation 5:5.

It's one of the core concepts of Christianity, even. He came down as a Lamb, and was slain, and later returns...

Lewis was i think only saying its not inappropriate to use the figure of a Lion, because after all the Bible describes Jesus as the Lion of Judah. I think his readers take it a bit far sometimes. But his stories were only suppositional, a working out of what if.
 
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dms1972

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But aslan is a lion, not a lamb.
If you read the bible, the lamb of God is Jesus and the devouring lion is the devil, prowling around seeking whom he may devour.

CS Lewis switches this around, making what seems like a christian story but making the devil out to be God. If you read Revelation there is a part where the beast seems to be killed but comes alive again, a counterfeit to the lamb.

He also does the same with screwtape letters, making out that wormtongue or the uncle or whoever is writing the letters to be greater than God and having more power.

I find that very disturbing, and never thought leads people that CS Lewis was actually christian when I read it. I know people said he was, but I thought it was subtle that he switched things around and glorified the dark side more than the true light of the world. Its like the new age masquerading evil as good.

Yes the devouring lion is the devil. Clearly though Aslan is not depicted like this, even though it is said he is not a tame lion. Jesus is spoken of as the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world, and also the Lion of Judah.

In the Screwtape letters, Lewis is mocking the devil, following Martin Luthers advice that the devil being proud can't bear scorn. Screwtape setting out to secure the ruin of a human being, fails miserably, as within a short time, the man becomes a christian, and starts to go to church. Screwtape and wormwood then tries to hinder him in his christian life. The book, is very helpful to some in seeing the way the devil distracts people, and his strategies. Something the church either overlooks, or focuses too much on, there are very few books like it, its supposed to give the reader an inside track on the ways the devil might try to trick them.
 
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timewerx

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No he doesn't.
Peter said that the devil is LIKE a roaring lion. In Scripture, Satan is more often depicted as a dragon, or a serpent. That doesn't mean that he actually IS any of these things. It's a metaphor; an illustration.

This is not as simple as it seems.

The Lion is also described as the devil.

In the overall context, Christ could never be a lion. A lion is not a pure creature. It will never be fit to be sacrifice for the atonement of sins. A lion has the blood of the innocents upon it. A lion is a murderer.

In John 8, to the Jews who had opposed Christ, Christ told them that their father is a murderer.....The lion of Judah??

Animals fit for sacrifice on the other hand are lamb, dove, and cattle. And indeed, Christ and the Holy Spirit has been represented by a lamb and a dove.
 
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Strong in Him

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This is not as simple as it seems.

The Lion is also described as the devil.

In the overall context, Christ could never be a lion. A lion is not a pure creature. It will never be fit to be sacrifice for the atonement of sins. A lion has the blood of the innocents upon it. A lion is a murderer.

In John 8, to the Jews who had opposed Christ, Christ told them that their father is a murderer.....The lion of Judah??

Animals fit for sacrifice on the other hand are lamb, dove, and cattle. And indeed, Christ and the Holy Spirit has been represented by a lamb and a dove.

Aside from the fact that - as has been discussed - Christ is the Lion of Judah as portrayed in Revelation; the Lion, the witch and the wardrobe is fiction - a children's book. In the story, Narnia is a wood/forest, and the inhabitants are mostly animals. The lion is the king of beasts, probably known as such for it's strength and the fact that it is golden in colour and looks quite majestic.
Anyway, Aslan the lion, the king, the one who is good, powerful, respected by the good and feared by those who are wicked, rescued a boy from the evil one (the witch), by offering to be killed in his place. He then came alive again, evil was defeated and good won. It's not difficult to draw comparisons and say to anyone who has enjoyed this book "in the same way, we are being kept hostage by an evil power and need someone to rescue us. And this is what Jesus did - Jesus didn't just give his life for one person, but for everyone."

You would not expect a child to say, "but Aslan should be a lamb because he is going to get killed and Jesus is the lamb of God who gave his life for sin." Yes, he did and that is true; but the point of the story is that a powerful, good creature offered to be killed in order to save someone else; that he allowed himself to be tied up and have all his mane shorn off, when he could have roared at those tying him up and set himself free. Then he allowed them to kill him - and came alive again 3 days later.
Introduce these ideas to children at a young age and in a way they will enjoy, and they can be developed later. Though it should be said that teens and adults enjoy the Narnia books too.
 
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Simon Crosby

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Later when I became a christian CS Lewis writings didnt make much senese either. It seemed he was advocating anglicanism as a religion rather than actually being born again.

CS Lewis was an Anglican Christian; from Ulster, he would have been baptozed into what was then the Anglican Church of Ireland. Later, at Oxford, where he wrote most of hismworks, he was a member of the Church of England, like me.

Every Sunday he got up very early to drove some 50 miles with his brother to attend a 7:30 AM "said service," a very brief service of the Eucharist without a hymns, choir or organ music, and he and his brother would leave immediately after taking communion. He was opposed to liturgical innovation or novelty in worship; he felt that church services were something we used, and every time a vicar made some change to the services, the congregation had to learn again how to make use of them for prayer.

His views were certainly high church; I do not think he was an Anglo Catholic however as Anglo Catholics were generally dissatisfied with the 1662 BCP and actively wished for it to be revised one way or the other, to more closely resemble either the old Sarum Rite, the Roman Missal, or the liturgies od the Eastern churches. Many used in CS Lewis time "the English missal," an English translation of the Roman Missal. So that to me, clearly indicates CS Lewis was not an Anglo Catholic, far less was he an Anglo Papalist.

He was promoting Christianity as a religion; in mere Christianity he sought to do it in the most non-denominational way possible, but it must be understood his context was high church Anglicanism. For CS Lewis, therefore, being born again meant "being born anew of water and the spirit" at Baptism. And CS Lewis was baptized into the Anglican Church of Ireland, as an infant. So, from his Anglican perspective, he was born again as an infant; probabaly when he was eight days old, roughly speaking. So was I, for that matter; I consider myself to have been born again and with Christ for 47 years now.

Now if you, from a Baptist or Evangelical perspective, disagree, and reject infant baptism, I respect that, but please remember, Anglicanism is a Christian religion, and CS Lewis was most assuredly both a Christian and a devout Anglican of comparatively high churchmanship.
 
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please remember, Anglicanism is a Christian religion, and CS Lewis was most assuredly both a Christian and a devout Anglican of comparatively high churchmanship.

It's a Christian denomination.
Sadly, the Christian religion has many of those; but we all share the same faith.
 
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AGTG

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I think it's very wise to question things that are not clearly the truth. In fact, that's exactly what Jesus warned us to do throughout the Gospels. How much more relevant is that message in the age of mass-media?

The Lord has been helping me put together a very clear teaching that I now recognize as Jesus' teachings to safeguard ourselves from the "strong delusion" that God allows in the last days.

Currently, there is a strong delusion at work. Whether or not it's "the" strong delusion remains to be seen.

Whatever the case may be, it's becoming increasingly clear to me Jesus would rather you be more careful than not. God did not give us critical thinking skills for nothing.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I'm not sure I understand why CS Lewis wrote the things he did, it seemed like he was christian but then he wrote about lions and witches and wardrobes.

i remmeber seeing this movie as a child and I did not think it was actually christian. It was more fairy tale. Actually it scared me a bit when I was young because it suggested that wardrobes could be portals to this other world.

Later when I became a christian CS Lewis writings didnt make much senese either. It seemed he was advocating anglicanism as a religion rather than actually being born again.

I tried to read 'mere christianity' but nothing registered, just seemed like an out of date apologetic for religion. Screwtape letters seemed to glorify demons. I did not enjoy reading the screwtape letters, I thought, very clever, but no gospel in it.

What do other people think? Anybody actually know him personally? Why was he writing about witches etc when we are meant to avoid all appearance of evil? I would not say chronicles of narnia are christian. Its fantasy, with twisted elements of christianity in it.

I am the most biased person you will ever find on CS Lewis. He is awesome.
I was an Atheist, but Mere Christianity broke my shell of scepticism and gradually, kicking and screaming, God dragged me onto my knees and into prayer and grace.
CS Lewis and his apologetic works had a big part to play in this. I find him clear and descent, logical and understandable.
If you read the Preamble to Mere Christianity, you will see he had a strong ecumenical streak. He just cares if you are Christian, ie saved, not which Church you belong to. Most of his Inkling buddies were Catholic, but he remained staunch Anglican and generally held that all Churches are searching for God in their own way.

CS Lewis was an Oxford Don, a professor of English Literature. Mostly mediaeval and age of Discovery writings were his speciality, especialy Milton (on whom he wrote the textbook). He was not a Theologian, he was a layman, but he has an extensive background in Philosophy and Theology as this was the background of the texts he studied in his daily work as a Don.
He also wrote extensively on his own conversion (Surprised by Joy, Pilgrims regress) and multiple apologetic works.
He was originally an Atheist with a love of Norse mythology and extensive training in latin and greek, before his conversion. This can be seen in his apologetic and fictional works. He explains Christianity from base principles, which is why some call him the Apostle to the Atheists, I am living proof of its effectiveness.

I confess I am not a big fan of Narnia, I feel he wrote much better books, but there is nothing unchristian about it. He called it a supposition, not a metaphor, of how the incarnation could have occured in a world of animals. He covers much of the Christian story therein, but weaves Dwarves and witches and the ilk in, because that is what he likes, it is his mythological background seeping through.
In his book 'God in the Dock' there is an extensive explanation of mythology being something that readies man to accept the Truth, as mythology becomes Historic Fact in Jesus. This is in answer to Golden Bough like speculation etc. but we see the same idea present in Narnia.

As to use of Lions etc. this is established Christian usages as has been said. In Voyage of the Dawn Treader they meet a Lamb who turns out to be Aslan. Aslan also appears in multiple Christian settings, not least his Sacrifice on the Stone Table for the salvation of everyone from the White Witch.

As to those who say he was a heretic. He was a humble man, multiple times in his works he will say he is but a layman and will always defer to those that are better Christians than he or know more about the issue. He was a sincere Christian struggling with issues (see a Grief Observed for instance) and never claimed any of his speculative writings were to be taken as true. They were discussions on issues, a sort of debate on concepts with the reader.
He discussed Universalism and God speaking through other religions as introductions to Christianity and ideas of semi-formed souls etc. but he never forced them or tried to contort the Bible or Christianity to fit them. They were merely considered, never adopted as articles of faith, as his training in Philosophic Enquiry had taught him. To call him a heretic is ridiculous.
To quote him: "If it helps you then I have done a good thing, if not, then discard it by all means".

Now CS Lewis will tell you in all his works that he is a sinner. That there are better Christians out there. If you read the excellent biography mentioned above, CS Lewis: a Life by Allistair McGrath, you will see a flawed man, a sinner, a person who struggled with his faith. You will see in short, a human, not a saint. But CS Lewis was a man of God if I have ever come across one. He has been a great inspiration to me, a guide in the Faith, a fellow traveller to God. I have no doubt that someday if I make it to heaven, I will find him there and I relish the opportunity and I will thank him with all my heart.

I am saddened by your appraisal, I think you are missing out on a great spiritual guide to the Christian religion, but he is not for everyone. He tends to assume his readers are acquanted with concepts few people are in our modern world as we have largely abandoned the Classical Education that he was a product and practitioner of. But don't think he is occultic or whatever, there are those such as myself, who he has helped immensely. I think you are just not properly acquanted with his works, as you yourself said you struggled with Mere Christianity. This is not really your fault.

To quote my favorite CS Lewis quote:

"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

These are the words of a great and sincere Christian.
 
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greenguzzi

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It's a Christian denomination.
Sadly, the Christian religion has many of those; but we all share the same faith.
I don't completely agree with the "sadly"...
By and large I see the various denominations as an inevitable consequence of us mortals coming to grips with God and His Word. The existence of denominations is one of the things that convinced me that the Gospel is true.

I reckon that proto-denominationalism is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:

"I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."
I'm not saying that some denominations are wrong and others right. But that divisions exist so that the truth can be relieved though evidence. Notice that Paul says there must be factions. Not that there are factions, and we have to deal with them, but that factions must exist: Denominations are part of God's plan. One could argue that I'm reading too much into this, but the fact that denominations exist might weigh on my side.

It is sad, however, in the way that denominations sometimes interact. I'm London born with Irish blood, so I know first-hand what denominational conflict can look like when both sides forget that it's supposed to be about God and His Christ, and not about planting bombs.

I am encouraged by more recent trends for Christians of all denominations to look around to see what might be approved by God in eachother's tradition. Which is one of the reasons why I identify as a post-evangelical.
 
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RDKirk

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But aslan is a lion, not a lamb.
If you read the bible, the lamb of God is Jesus and the devouring lion is the devil, prowling around seeking whom he may devour.

CS Lewis switches this around, making what seems like a christian story but making the devil out to be God. If you read Revelation there is a part where the beast seems to be killed but comes alive again, a counterfeit to the lamb.

The true “Lion and the Lamb” passage is Revelation 5:5–6. The Lion and the Lamb both refer to Jesus Christ. He is both the conquering Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Lamb who was slain. The Lion and the Lamb are descriptions of two aspects of the nature of Christ.

Interestingly to me--especially at the time--my daughter was only four when I sat with her to watch an animation of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

I had not told her anything about the story beforehand, but when it got to the part that Aslan was resurrected from the dead, my daughter gasped, "That's just like Jesus!"

If you read the final book of Narnia Chronicles, The Final Battle, you see it is a pretty obvious metaphor for the Revelation of John.
 
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AGTG

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That's basically what I said. Test/Discern the message but don't judge the messenger.

That's not what Jesus said. He said, "Beware of the leaven of the pharisees, which is hypocrisy."

Testing goes beyond the message and into the message-giver, if we chose to follow Jesus' way.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I don't completely agree with the "sadly"...
By and large I see the various denominations as an inevitable consequence of us mortals coming to grips with God and His Word. The existence of denominations is one of the things that convinced me that the Gospel is true.

I reckon that proto-denominationalism is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:

"I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."
I'm not saying that some denominations are wrong and others right. But that divisions exist so that the truth can be relieved though evidence. Notice that Paul says there must be factions. Not that there are factions, and we have to deal with them, but that factions must exist: Denominations are part of God's plan. One could argue that I'm reading too much into this, but the fact that denominations exist might weigh on my side.

It is sad, however, in the way that denominations sometimes interact. I'm London born with Irish blood, so I know first-hand what denominational conflict can look like when both sides forget that it's supposed to be about God and His Christ, and not about planting bombs.

I am encouraged by more recent trends for Christians of all denominations to look around to see what might be approved by God in eachother's tradition. Which is one of the reasons why I identify as a post-evangelical.

The preface of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis

"I hope no reader will suppose that "mere" Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions — as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else.

It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall, I have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think preferable. It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into the room you will find that the long wait has done some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.

In plain language, the question should never be: "Do I like that kind of service?" but "Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?"

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. This is one of the rules common to the whole house"

This clearly shows his ecumenical views. I don't understand why his personal allegiance to Anglicanism is in any way a issue here.
 
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RDKirk

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i think the op is right to raise some of her points, even if she is wrong about Lewis.

It does no harm to check what Scripture says about the Lion of Judah, and not just assume lewis is right in everything or to derive our understanding of Christ, from Aslan, rather than the Bible.

Well, actually the OP asserted strongly and repeatedly that Christ cannot be called a "lion" under any circumstances, and to do so is unbiblical...and this supposedly after checking.
 
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Xalith

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That's not what Jesus said. He said, "Beware of the leaven of the pharisees, which is hypocrisy."

Testing goes beyond the message and into the message-giver, if we chose to follow Jesus' way.

He said "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy", aka "Watch what you listen to." Which is basically exactly what I said. Discern the message, but don't judge the messenger. Never once did Christ instruct any disciple/apostle to do anything about the Pharisees. He merely told them to avoid them and their poisonous teachings.

He did NOT say "Go out and tell the world that the Pharisees are evil, tell people to stay away from the Pharisees".
 
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