Question: Hallucinations

[tallyn75]

I used to have very distinct bipolar episodes that I could actually sit and chart them. And I'd have a good level period that I could clean up the mess the episode left behind. Now, I fly through them faster than I can bat an eye--least it feels that way. Maybe the ECTs are making things worse. I have them twice a month and everything always hits the fan the few days before my next treatment.

But tonight I can feel the instability of my brain. I can feel reality slipping here and there, and I can't express the fear that brings.

This afternoon my family and I went to visit some friends like we've been doing each Saturday (or sometimes every other Saturday). The adults have watched "Lost" (Season 4 if you've watch) together and the kids play in the friends' daughter's room. This particular episode dealt with "Hugo's forward-flash (as opposed to back-flash) --yes it's a trippy series. Any ways he winds up in a mental institution and it's hard to tell if he's really having hallucinations or if there's a rational explanation.

We finished the dvd a little early so we watched "Know1ing" I hadn't heard of it before so I wasn't all that interested in watching it. But it started out with a school yard full of elementary students. I was hooked. It was one of those that at least made you, at least, look at your beliefs if not question them. One of the students was hearing whispers and was driven to write a whole page full of numbers. Then when the paper was taken away she continued to write them into a wooden door with her fingers until they bled. Everyone just figured she was sick and years later she died of an overdose. According to the movie, though, it turned out she wasn't mentally affected but fore-saw and fore-heard the coming apocalypse.

So here I sit here, contemplating the line of reality and watching those movies just threw rocks in the fan. Sometimes this "line" consists outter threats like bees or wasps which I happen to be phobic of, and other times it involves inner threats like seeing myself driving into opposing traffic (I either panic or feel the urge to follow). My emotions seem to be on the back burner. Or maybe its depression without the extreme sadness that I've had before. But my thoughts aren't slowed like usual either, but running a mile a minute.

Sorry so long-winded, but as for my query... How does this fit in the life of a profess-er of Christ? Can they be a possess-er too? or are they just possessed by the evil one? I hope I don't run over any toes with this train of thought. But I seem to be getting worse not better with treatment and I fear they'll find a way to commit me to an institution permanently. And what does one do with passages like 2 Timothy 1:7 that says God has given us a sound mind. All this doesn't sound like a "sound mind" to me. I wish I could just stop thinking. I just want it all to stop.

 

[SinkingShip]

I have both dilusions and hallucinations (they often go hand in hand during psychosis) during the deeper parts of my depressive episodes, usually at the point of mental and emotional exhaustion. When I first started having them, it was in the form of a voice responding in my head when I prayed. This immediatly brought fourth the suspicion in my Bible club (and, unfortunately, my Christian therapist) that it may be the work of "an oppressive Demon"; mental illness was never really considered. No one likes dealing with the possibility of something malfunctioning in the mind, even if it is one of the most complex and fragile things in creation.

Looking back, I think part of me wanted to believe it was a demon. Maybe I didn't want to acknowledge the possibility that I had mental issues, maybe the thought that I was important enough for as Demon to pick on appealed to my ego, maybe I thought this was a precursor to some miracle that would affirm my faith and "make it all better". My favorite passage was the one dealing with "God will never give you more than you can handle" (never mind I was incorrectly using that verse in the context of illness, not temptation) - I held onto that one right to the final moment of my suicide attempt, never realizing that maybe "the way out" the verse refers to was a visit to the University counseling center.

It took several years for me to come to terms with the reality that I was mentally ill, and several more to understand not just how deep the illness could go in impacting my sense of reality, but also that its not conscious and not my fault: just some bad genes from a family with a history of mental illness and the environment to trigger it all. As a friend of mine pointed out, we live in a fallen world - things, and people, and minds, are broken.

With Bipolar, especially in times of hallucinations and dilusions, its easy to misinterpret what we read and take verses out of context. I doubt God ever intended for dilusions to be part of nature, but he knew they would be, and he knows how they affect us. Its not demonic, and its not a test from Him; its our mind's unconscious way of trying to make sense of the unbalanced stimuli being thrown its way via out neurotransmitters and neuroreceptors.

In conclusion, remember this: you believe, and you still believe despite having to deal with one of the most crippling mood/mental disorders. Millions have suffered less than us and forsaken their faith, yet our faith persists even if its reduced to its most basic components and barely remains. If thats not a profession of faith, then what is?

Regarding the fear of being "committed", its really hard to be hospitalized these days unless its voluntary or you pose an imminent risk to yourself or others. Focus on what you can do to help yourself: listen to and be honest with your doctor about your symptoms, stay on your medications, and reach out (be it here, to a friend, or even a hotline) when you need or want help. And don't "beat yourself up" because you're not perfect. Thomas had his doubts, and Peter had his denials, but Jesus still loved them and we still see them as pillars of the faith, and neither had mental illness to contend with (that we know of).

I hope this helps. Have you talked to your Dr about the psychosis or adding an anti-psychotic to your medications? Seroquel and then Abilify really helped me with the psychosis (dilusions, hallucinations, dissociations, and all), so there may be something out there that will work for you as well.

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

I have both dilusions and hallucinations (they often go hand in hand during psychosis) during the deeper parts of my depressive episodes, usually at the point of mental and emotional exhaustion. When I first started having them, it was in the form of a voice responding in my head when I prayed. This immediatly brought fourth the suspicion in my Bible club (and, unfortunately, my Christian therapist) that it may be the work of "an oppressive Demon"; mental illness was never really considered. No one likes dealing with the possibility of something malfunctioning in the mind, even if it is one of the most complex and fragile things in creation.

Looking back, I think part of me wanted to believe it was a demon. Maybe I didn't want to acknowledge the possibility that I had mental issues, maybe the thought that I was important enough for as Demon to pick on appealed to my ego, maybe I thought this was a precursor to some miracle that would affirm my faith and "make it all better". My favorite passage was the one dealing with "God will never give you more than you can handle" (never mind I was incorrectly using that verse in the context of illness, not temptation) - I held onto that one right to the final moment of my suicide attempt, never realizing that maybe "the way out" the verse refers to was a visit to the University counseling center.

It took several years for me to come to terms with the reality that I was mentally ill, and several more to understand not just how deep the illness could go in impacting my sense of reality, but also that its not conscious and not my fault: just some bad genes from a family with a history of mental illness and the environment to trigger it all. As a friend of mine pointed out, we live in a fallen world - things, and people, and minds, are broken.

With Bipolar, especially in times of hallucinations and dilusions, its easy to misinterpret what we read and take verses out of context. I doubt God ever intended for dilusions to be part of nature, but he knew they would be, and he knows how they affect us. Its not demonic, and its not a test from Him; its our mind's unconscious way of trying to make sense of the unbalanced stimuli being thrown its way via out neurotransmitters and neuroreceptors.

In conclusion, remember this: you believe, and you still believe despite having to deal with one of the most crippling mood/mental disorders. Millions have suffered less than us and forsaken their faith, yet our faith persists even if its reduced to its most basic components and barely remains. If thats not a profession of faith, then what is?

Regarding the fear of being "committed", its really hard to be hospitalized these days unless its voluntary or you pose an imminent risk to yourself or others. Focus on what you can do to help yourself: listen to and be honest with your doctor about your symptoms, stay on your medications, and reach out (be it here, to a friend, or even a hotline) when you need or want help. And don't "beat yourself up" because you're not perfect. Thomas had his doubts, and Peter had his denials, but Jesus still loved them and we still see them as pillars of the faith, and neither had mental illness to contend with (that we know of).

I hope this helps. Have you talked to your Dr about the psychosis or adding an anti-psychotic to your medications? Seroquel and then Abilify really helped me with the psychosis (dilusions, hallucinations, dissociations, and all), so there may be something out there that will work for you as well.

Dear sinkingship,
Even though this wasn't meant for me, what you just wrote here touched me deeply. These sober words are full of wisdom and informed with pain. Thank you so much. I thank god for gifting you not only with articulate expression, but with the humility, soundness and wisdom that can only come from a person who is both honest in her struggle, but sincere in her love and heart after god. your words sobered me today and i just wanted you to know.

you would make a great therapist. you have the gift of healing.

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

what is the difference between a delusion and a hallucination. i know by definition, but i just wanted to know from experience what some examples were. I think my delusions manifest when depressed when i believe i'm worthless, a burden to others.... or when it feels like the depressions have gone on for a life time and i can't imagine or remember what it feels like to think soberly. When manic, my delusion is when i believe that i'm "extra" funny....when my jokes are genius and MUST be said.... or when i have spiritual delusions and see "signs" from god everywhere....that really sucks for my faith, when i "come to" and realize that hyper spirituality was just another extreme of a delusion. So basically a delusion is a false belief and a hallucination is a false sighting? Clearly seeing or hearing something that is clearly not there?

i don't think i've ever had a hallucination. Does this count? when conversing with others, totally hearing some sentence that they never said. For example, during a manic phase, my friend was telling me she was getting married and i sworeeeeeeeeeeee she also said that she was going to have a baby, but she never did. This was an instant message conversation and i could still imagine seeing that sentence in my mind's eye, but no such words were spoken.
On another occasion, in an audible conversation, i heard something that was never said. Not a misunderstanding, but something that was never said. Do these things count as hallucinations?
Can you share with me what hallucinations are like? Also, how does this happen? Does it mostly happen with mania and does it occur after several yrs. after the illness worsens in severity. I mean, what is believed to bring a bp patient to this extreme? IS it a result of going on for yrs. untreated? or an especially traumatic environmental trigger? What does psychosis feel like? is it like dream logic?

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

i hate that i can't always trust my emotions or rely on my own mind....the mind that is basically one in the same as what we call the self or soul. It's so frightening to distrust yourself and makes you feel like an alien to yourself. As though there were 2 me's: one that is as familiar as a button is to a shirt and the other me forced to look on.....from the outside....to try to keep nuetral....to guard the familiar me from losing herself.

people say i over-analyze. but the truth is, i love to analyze and observe things closely. If i was a male living during the early 19th century, i'd most assuredly be a naturalist and have every insect catalogued. Why does everyone think analyzing is such a bad thing?

 

[SinkingShip]

what is the difference between a delusion and a hallucination. i know by definition, but i just wanted to know from experience what some examples were. I think my delusions manifest when depressed when i believe i'm worthless, a burden to others.... or when it feels like the depressions have gone on for a life time and i can't imagine or remember what it feels like to think soberly. When manic, my delusion is when i believe that i'm "extra" funny....when my jokes are genius and MUST be said.... or when i have spiritual delusions and see "signs" from god everywhere....that really sucks for my faith, when i "come to" and realize that hyper spirituality was just another extreme of a delusion. So basically a delusion is a false belief and a hallucination is a false sighting? Clearly seeing or hearing something that is clearly not there?

i don't think i've ever had a hallucination. Does this count? when conversing with others, totally hearing some sentence that they never said. For example, during a manic phase, my friend was telling me she was getting married and i sworeeeeeeeeeeee she also said that she was going to have a baby, but she never did. This was an instant message conversation and i could still imagine seeing that sentence in my mind's eye, but no such words were spoken.
On another occasion, in an audible conversation, i heard something that was never said. Not a misunderstanding, but something that was never said. Do these things count as hallucinations?
Can you share with me what hallucinations are like? Also, how does this happen? Does it mostly happen with mania and does it occur after several yrs. after the illness worsens in severity. I mean, what is believed to bring a bp patient to this extreme? IS it a result of going on for yrs. untreated? or an especially traumatic environmental trigger? What does psychosis feel like? is it like dream logic?

Sure thing

Hallucinations involve the senses. For me, its seeing a car (that was never there) swerve into my lane or my dishwasher flooding my kitchen (even though the kitchen was dry). They can occurr within the blink of an eye, or can drag on longer (I once watched a wall change colors over a period of several minutes). These are visual halucinations, but they can occurr with any of the 5 senses such as hearing voices, tactile halucinations (like seeing some worms crawl into your skin - that was a fun one), or "phantom" tastes or smells.

Delusions involve belief systems in the mind. One example is the belief that someone is trying to kill you and poisoned your food (paranoid delusion) or the belief that you are actually some long lost Prince of a foreign land. There is a delusional disorder known as "Jerusalem Syndrome" where people who visit the Holy Sites in Israel will start to believe that they themselves are Jesus Christ.

But thats not to say that delusions can't be far more subtle or dangerous. The worst delusion I had came during a depressive episode when I was reading up on some Theoretical Physics. There is the concept in theoretical physics of the "Metaverse", or parallel universes where different choices are made. I got the delusion that I could cross over into these other universes and all I had to do was kill myself to "cross over". Another delusion I had during the same episode involved the belief that everyone I cared about actually wanted me to committ suicide so that I could be free and that if I did kill myself, then they would actually cheer on the decision and be happy for me.


Fortunately, I figured out that something was seriously wrong early on in the depressive cycle and got in touch with my Dr, who increased my anti-depressants and put me on Seroquel (an anti-psychotic).

From my perspective, its easier to identify the halucinations because they don't fit with the rest of the environment. My delusions permiated every aspect of my thinking at the time, so it became harder and harder to tell which thoughts were "good" or "bad" very quickly. That my also be why I know when the halucinations started, but not the delusions; they become part of your thinking.

My first halucination (a voice that responded when I prayed) first came up when I was a teenager and first started experiencing the mood swings (specifically the severe depression). I don't know when the delusions started, but I do know that I was operating under several of them for years while on Lexapro, I never realized it until I started the Seroquel and noticed that some of my thoughts just didn't match the reality of certain situations. I'm on Abilify now and will probably remain on one anti-psychotic or another for the forseeable future because my Halucinations/Delusions can make me a danger to myself very quickly.

As always, tell your Dr and/or therapist if you even think you're experiencing either. They are far more knowledgeable and are trained to recognize the symptoms.

Type I's can experience delusions/Hallucinations during Manic Phases, Type II's typically experience them during depressive phases (Psychotic Depression).

I hope this helps!

 

[SinkingShip]

i hate that i can't always trust my emotions or rely on my own mind....the mind that is basically one in the same as what we call the self or soul. It's so frightening to distrust yourself and makes you feel like an alien to yourself. As though there were 2 me's: one that is as familiar as a button is to a shirt and the other me forced to look on.....from the outside....to try to keep nuetral....to guard the familiar me from losing herself.

people say i over-analyze. but the truth is, i love to analyze and observe things closely. If i was a male living during the early 19th century, i'd most assuredly be a naturalist and have every insect catalogued. Why does everyone think analyzing is such a bad thing?

I do the same thing - I have to, its the only way to catch the delusions in the act and correct my thinking. That being said, there is such as thing as "analysis paralysis" where you're crippled by the analysis alone. After years of analyzing every thought and emotion, I now tend to over-analyze situations and read far more into them than warranted.

One example was an instant message I received from a friend after I had to cancel a lunch meeting. I apologized for cancelling it and they said "no worries". My mind instantly analyzed it for the tone of their response -

"Is my friend being geniune or sarcastic? Are they upset or mad that I cancelled? Do they think I'm crazy? There was no smiley face, so they must be angry. They probably hate me now..."

The tail end of that thought process is the energence of my paranoia delusion - that people really don't like me and are faking their kindness towards me or patronizing me. I had to step back and analyze it to realize I was interpreting it wrong, but the fact is that it was my initial over-analysis of the situation that brought the delusion to the surface (again).

Battling them is a real pain because you're fighting your own mind in the process. With delusions, it becomes very easy (and even necessary) to not trust your own thoughts. Fortunately, Meds help a LOT, and therapy can help change thought patterns. My delusion was triggered by the sudden fear that my friend would reject me and stop wanting to be my friend, but thats no where near the reality of the nature of our friendship - tackle the fear, and its one less trigger for the delusion. Tackle the "over-analysis", and its one less doorway for the fear to arise to begin with.

I've begun to shift my analysis skills to learning about body language and "cold reading" people's behaviors to see what they are communicating (like raising your eyebrows signifies that you're surprised). Its fun for me, but I realize I don't know enough to be able to "profile" someone just by how they sit, so there are built in limits for me as to how much I can use it (and not misuse it). People are always saying I have a knack for "catching things everyone else missed", so there is good in it, its just a matter of using it correctly, and in moderation.

 

[Goodbook]

Tallyn75

Have you prayed to receive the Holy Spirit? Have you asked Jesus into your life, your heart and repented and renounced any sin? Yes, it sounds like you've professed him (one step) but you haven't possessed him. Jesus promises us the Holy Spirit who dwells IN you.

I am just asking these questions just to doublecheck. When you receive the Holy Spirit, yes you are given a sound mind. That is the context of the passage. That's not to say evil can still attack. It sounds like you recognise that these thoughts are NOT of a sound mind. That's good. If you didn't have the Holy Spirit you wouldn't really be able to recognise these thoughts as wrong, you might just think 'that's how I'm thinking' or 'it's mania, and it's me' You know it's not YOU. So Jesus gives you the authority to ask whatever is messing up your mind to leave. Tell them to leave by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Jesus has power and authority over demons. He cast them out. In the bible it is not 'demons' . If you don't believe in God's word, then Jesus isn't real and neither are demons and you have no hope. You have to come up with some other explanation, and dampen your symptoms with drugs. But I see in your profile you are Christian, so you are in Christ. You can overcome, with his help. Pray and ask, or ask for prayer to receive in your church. Another name for the Holy Spirit is the comforter, or the helper. He will guide you to the truth.

This is basic Christianity. It saddens me that there are so many Christianities that don't teach this, that people want to believe in whatever they want rather than what is God's truth.

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

Tallyn75

Have you prayed to receive the Holy Spirit? Have you asked Jesus into your life, your heart and repented and renounced any sin? Yes, it sounds like you've professed him (one step) but you haven't possessed him. Jesus promises us the Holy Spirit who dwells IN you.

I am just asking these questions just to doublecheck. When you receive the Holy Spirit, yes you are given a sound mind. That is the context of the passage. That's not to say evil can still attack. It sounds like you recognise that these thoughts are NOT of a sound mind. That's good. If you didn't have the Holy Spirit you wouldn't really be able to recognise these thoughts as wrong, you might just think 'that's how I'm thinking' or 'it's mania, and it's me' You know it's not YOU. So Jesus gives you the authority to ask whatever is messing up your mind to leave. Tell them to leave by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Jesus has power and authority over demons. He cast them out. In the bible it is not 'demons' . If you don't believe in God's word, then Jesus isn't real and neither are demons and you have no hope. You have to come up with some other explanation, and dampen your symptoms with drugs. But I see in your profile you are Christian, so you are in Christ. You can overcome, with his help. Pray and ask, or ask for prayer to receive in your church. Another name for the Holy Spirit is the comforter, or the helper. He will guide you to the truth.

This is basic Christianity. It saddens me that there are so many Christianities that don't teach this, that people want to believe in whatever they want rather than what is God's truth.

Goodbook,
Don't take this the wrong way, but the reason i knew you were a new christian was because of your fixation with demonology and spiritual warfare. For some reason, it is very common for many new converts to develop a preoccupation with spiritual warfare or to interpret every little thing and every little thought as a spiritual attack. I can say this because i used to think this way 20 yrs. ago when i was young and new in christ. I was also easily influenced by those around me that spoke in that sort of church lingo due to my lack of experience/knowledge. As you mature in christ, you will not see things so black and white, you will realize that suffering is not always born of satan or a spiritual attack.

The bible verse (about a sound mind) is not referring to mental illness. To be mentally ill does not mean you are being afflicted by demons or that your faith in God is weaker than someone without mental illness. Remember that the brain is an organ just like any organ. Hallucinations aren't a sign of demon possession. You seem to interpret the symptoms talyn is describing as her either having unconfessed sin, her possibly being unsaved or her not having the "fullness" of the spirit (whatever that means). You state that you suffer from bipolar disorder and yet you believe mental illness is satanic? Do you NOT believe that bipolar disorder is an organic biological chemical imbalance or do believe this illness is a result of demonic possession/oppression/affliction or whatever you want to call it?
Would you believe that someone with diabetes has that illness due to demonic warfare?

I believe in christ and know full well that the enemy exists. But you know what's worse than suffering from mental illness? To erroneously believe that your own mental illness is a result of satanic possession or a weak faith. If i were satan, that would be a good lie or a strategic way to attack a christian who suffers from mental illness....for them to think this devastating physiological illness is a result of spiritual weakness or unrepented sin and therefore their fault.... that's a cunning way to "mess with your mind" if you were already suffering from delusions and hallucinations as a result of mental illness don't you think?
Read what sinkingship wrote to talyn....her response was right on target.

Question: Do you actually believe that your mental illness is a result of spiritual warfare? Do you believe casting out demons and rebuking will cure your bipolar disorder?

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

I used to have very distinct bipolar episodes that I could actually sit and chart them. And I'd have a good level period that I could clean up the mess the episode left behind. Now, I fly through them faster than I can bat an eye--least it feels that way. Maybe the ECTs are making things worse. I have them twice a month and everything always hits the fan the few days before my next treatment.

But tonight I can feel the instability of my brain. I can feel reality slipping here and there, and I can't express the fear that brings.

This afternoon my family and I went to visit some friends like we've been doing each Saturday (or sometimes every other Saturday). The adults have watched "Lost" (Season 4 if you've watch) together and the kids play in the friends' daughter's room. This particular episode dealt with "Hugo's forward-flash (as opposed to back-flash) --yes it's a trippy series. Any ways he winds up in a mental institution and it's hard to tell if he's really having hallucinations or if there's a rational explanation.

We finished the dvd a little early so we watched "Know1ing" I hadn't heard of it before so I wasn't all that interested in watching it. But it started out with a school yard full of elementary students. I was hooked. It was one of those that at least made you, at least, look at your beliefs if not question them. One of the students was hearing whispers and was driven to write a whole page full of numbers. Then when the paper was taken away she continued to write them into a wooden door with her fingers until they bled. Everyone just figured she was sick and years later she died of an overdose. According to the movie, though, it turned out she wasn't mentally affected but fore-saw and fore-heard the coming apocalypse.

So here I sit here, contemplating the line of reality and watching those movies just threw rocks in the fan. Sometimes this "line" consists outter threats like bees or wasps which I happen to be phobic of, and other times it involves inner threats like seeing myself driving into opposing traffic (I either panic or feel the urge to follow). My emotions seem to be on the back burner. Or maybe its depression without the extreme sadness that I've had before. But my thoughts aren't slowed like usual either, but running a mile a minute.

Sorry so long-winded, but as for my query... How does this fit in the life of a profess-er of Christ? Can they be a possess-er too? or are they just possessed by the evil one? I hope I don't run over any toes with this train of thought. But I seem to be getting worse not better with treatment and I fear they'll find a way to commit me to an institution permanently. And what does one do with passages like 2 Timothy 1:7 that says God has given us a sound mind. All this doesn't sound like a "sound mind" to me. I wish I could just stop thinking. I just want it all to stop.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7 KJV).
Talyn, I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm just now coming out of a bad depression myself, so i understand your pain.
Please don't be so hard on yourself and think your symptoms to be signs of demonic oppression or a weak faith...that way of thinking will only compound any anxiety you may be feeling. Just because you suffer from mental illness and even suffer from possible hallucinations does not mean you do not have a "sound mind" in the spiritual sense. If you love god and embrace a spirit of moral wisdom, then you are not living in contradiction to this verse even if you experience possible hallucinations and/or delusions as a result of mental illness.

Below i have listed 17 translations of this verse because so many people often misinterpret and misunderstand it to mean soundness of mind in the medical or legal sense. Note that out of the 17 translations, only 3 (The king james, webster and young) renders the greek word as "sound mind".

Today, when we hear the term: "sound mind" we often think of it in the medical and legal sense, but if you look at all the translations together and the verse in context, you can clearly see that it's not referring to sanity, mental illness, mental competency to stand trial or draw a legal document, it's referring to soundness of mind in the moral sense...that is, one who is morally wise, self-disciplined in God's principles and lives a life of wise discretion. In other words Paul is exhorting timothy to embrace a spirit of boldness (as opposed to cowardice), power, love, self-discipline, self-control, sobriety, etc.

Also, as a side note, a fuller translation of the word for fear is not that of fear as we think of fear, but rather of a spirit of "cowardice" as opposed to boldness.

For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline. (new living translation)

For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline. (English Standard Version.)

for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control. (New American standard Bible)

For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. (international standard version.)

For God did not give us a spirit of timidity but one of power, love, and self-discipline. (God’s word translation)

God didn't give us a cowardly spirit but a spirit of power, love, and good judgment.



(King James Bible)
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.



(American King James Version)
For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.



(American Standard Version)
For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.



(Bible in Basic English)

For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of self-control.



(Douay-Rheims Bible)

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety.



(Darby Bible Translation)

For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion.



(English Revised Version)
For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.



(Webster’s Bible Translation)
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.



(Weymouth New Testament)
For the Spirit which God has given us is not a spirit of cowardice, but one of power and of love and of sound judgement.



(World English Bible)
For God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self-control.



(Young’s Literal Translation)
for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind

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[Goodbook]

schrodingers cat lives,

a sound mind, self-control, discipline, sound judgment to me, these are incompatible with depressions, manias, hallucinations and delusions. IMHO. You do write 'the fulness of spirit' whatever that means. "Whatever that means????" I'm sorry, but you do say you are a Christian, I'm not doubting you follow Christ in your own way, as you understand him. But I would ask you do you not understand who the Holy Spirit is, and that he dwells in you? It is not 'church lingo.' It's a reality. God didn't give us 'a spirit of moral wisdom' he gave us the Holy Spirit, and this spirit demonstrates love, power and self-control (or sound mind) You cannot change the words in the bible to suit your beliefs. We are to test all spirits, to see if they are of God. Any that does not confess to Jesus Christ come in the flesh is not the Holy Spirit.

The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's eyes. We seek God's wisdom, not earthly wisdom.
The biochemical imbalance theory for BPD - that it is CAUSED by chemical imbalance is flawed. I do not believe this adequately explains why people suffer from BPD.
Yes there are changes in chemicals in the brain when people suffer bipolar symptoms. But these do not CAUSE people the symptoms.

Diabetes is a different matter. Diabetes does not affect emotions or moods or thinking.

I do believe bipolar symptoms are partly caused by demonic oppression, affliction. It is also caused by sin, both from our sinful natures and sins against us. Jesus helped set me free from this, forgiving both my sin and sin against me in the past that wounded my soul. God showed me what incorrect beliefs I had about him, and the Holy Spirit guided me towards the truth, which is reading the word of God daily, renewing my mind with the mind of Christ and putting on the armour of God. He also changed my heart, before it was hardened toward God, because I thought *I* knew better, that my ways were right, but now I humbly submit to Him.

I didn't have to rebuke any demons, when I went for healing prayer, before I was saved, I asked to know God, and to be set free from my depression. These Christians in this life-group prayed for me, laid hands on me and after that night I went home, feeling shaken after that prayer. In the middle of the night I was woken up by my body involuntary shaken, and I started speaking in a strange tongue, and started spontaneously praising God. I didn't know what it was. Had I received the Holy Spirit, or was it demons? I think it was a bit of both, first the shaking, which was demons being shaken out of my body, and then the Holy Spirit coming in with tongues. Tongues were a sign to me beause I didn't believe. I was in no way trained or pressured into this, although I had heard about it, I did not expect it AT ALL. After this happened, I went to church for a while, said the sinners prayer and got saved. My faith then, was still the size of a mustard seed, and I still had many doubts. I was attending this pentecostal church that did faith healing, that proclaimed signs and wonders..I was skeptical. However this, made me aware of false teachers, I was able to discern the truth. I didn't agree with the church teachings which I thought were over the top and had fallen into error and pride. I experienced this 'slain in spirit' thing that freaked me out so I didn't go back!

I asked the pastor about my experience and he assured me it was the Holy Spirit and if I was unsure about anything to read the bible. It took me a long time to get round to reading the bible, but the more I read, the more I trusted, the more I began to understand. However I didn't go back to that church (it wasn't for me)

The Holy Spirit stayed with me though and led me to a bible-based church with humble Christians who loved each other, not prideful Christians (oxymoron) who thought their church was the best. I was shown that some things I had previously believed in were sinful, and I humbly repented of them, knowing Jesus had forgiven me. Not only was I shown what was wrong, I was shown what was right. And I found the cause of my bipolar symptoms in me was quite a few things. To repent of sin is something nobody likes to do, because nobody likes to believe that whatever they do is their fault, nobody likes to take responsibility. But I take responsibility for the things I did that led me into that state.

I am not preocuppied with satan or his lies anymore, that tempt people to sin after identifying them I am done with them because I have replaced them with the truth. Now my eyes are fixed on Jesus.

If though, there is something truly demonic going on, (and in some cases of psychosis/exteme mania this is relevant because there is no other explanation) nobody has to feel any anxiety because Jesus always defeats Satan. Not knowing how to correctly deal with this is dangerously suicidal, and can lead to a downward emotional spiral that takes months to recover from.

I've found in times of distress, the bible and prayer have ALWAYS helped, compared to medication which didn't (in my experience) and now that I am saved make them priority for the new life I have in Christ.

I have been off prescriptive meds for nearly a year now and intend to stay off them. My decision to come off mood stablisers was made about 3 years ago. I have had about two relapses, but they were short ones, and have never been on any anti-depressants or anti-psychotics for a length of time. I've found ways to manage stress and relax my mind. I don't constantly worry about bipolar disorder anymore, or that I'm going into manic phase if I wake up at 4am (sleeplessness was one of my signs) I know exactly what to do. Training my self in good sleep habits was one of the things I had to learn. Watching what I eat is important, taking care of any vitamin deficiencies, refraining from sugar, and exercise is another. But it was really Jesus who really saved me from myself, from thinking that I was doomed to always be mentally ill just because I had this BP label.

If medication and psychiatry and ECT help you, then good for you. (from your posts it doesn't seem like it) But I know and believe otherwise from experience and am not ignorant of the facts.

Tallyn, I pray that the Lord leads you toward the truth and brings you peace the passeth all understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. Movies aren't reality, Jesus is.

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

schrodingers cat lives,

a sound mind, self-control, discipline, sound judgment to me, these are incompatible with depressions, manias, hallucinations and delusions. IMHO. You do write 'the fulness of spirit' whatever that means. "Whatever that means????" I'm sorry, but you do say you are a Christian, I'm not doubting you follow Christ in your own way, as you understand him. But I would ask you do you not understand who the Holy Spirit is, and that he dwells in you? It is not 'church lingo.' It's a reality. God didn't give us 'a spirit of moral wisdom' he gave us the Holy Spirit, and this spirit demonstrates love, power and self-control (or sound mind) You cannot change the words in the bible to suit your beliefs. We are to test all spirits, to see if they are of God. Any that does not confess to Jesus Christ come in the flesh is not the Holy Spirit.

The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's eyes. We seek God's wisdom, not earthly wisdom.
The biochemical imbalance theory for BPD - that it is CAUSED by chemical imbalance is flawed. I do not believe this adequately explains why people suffer from BPD.
Yes there are changes in chemicals in the brain when people suffer bipolar symptoms. But these do not CAUSE people the symptoms.

Diabetes is a different matter. Diabetes does not affect emotions or moods or thinking.

I do believe bipolar symptoms are partly caused by demonic oppression, affliction. It is also caused by sin, both from our sinful natures and sins against us. Jesus helped set me free from this, forgiving both my sin and sin against me in the past that wounded my soul. God showed me what incorrect beliefs I had about him, and the Holy Spirit guided me towards the truth, which is reading the word of God daily, renewing my mind with the mind of Christ and putting on the armour of God. He also changed my heart, before it was hardened toward God, because I thought *I* knew better, that my ways were right, but now I humbly submit to Him.

I didn't have to rebuke any demons, when I went for healing prayer, before I was saved, I asked to know God, and to be set free from my depression. These Christians in this life-group prayed for me, laid hands on me and after that night I went home, feeling shaken after that prayer. In the middle of the night I was woken up by my body involuntary shaken, and I started speaking in a strange tongue, and started spontaneously praising God. I didn't know what it was. Had I received the Holy Spirit, or was it demons? I think it was a bit of both, first the shaking, which was demons being shaken out of my body, and then the Holy Spirit coming in with tongues. Tongues were a sign to me beause I didn't believe. I was in no way trained or pressured into this, although I had heard about it, I did not expect it AT ALL. After this happened, I went to church for a while, said the sinners prayer and got saved. My faith then, was still the size of a mustard seed, and I still had many doubts. I was attending this pentecostal church that did faith healing, that proclaimed signs and wonders..I was skeptical. However this, made me aware of false teachers, I was able to discern the truth. I didn't agree with the church teachings which I thought were over the top and had fallen into error and pride. I experienced this 'slain in spirit' thing that freaked me out so I didn't go back!

I asked the pastor about my experience and he assured me it was the Holy Spirit and if I was unsure about anything to read the bible. It took me a long time to get round to reading the bible, but the more I read, the more I trusted, the more I began to understand. However I didn't go back to that church (it wasn't for me)

The Holy Spirit stayed with me though and led me to a bible-based church with humble Christians who loved each other, not prideful Christians (oxymoron) who thought their church was the best. I was shown that some things I had previously believed in were sinful, and I humbly repented of them, knowing Jesus had forgiven me. Not only was I shown what was wrong, I was shown what was right. And I found the cause of my bipolar symptoms in me was quite a few things. To repent of sin is something nobody likes to do, because nobody likes to believe that whatever they do is their fault, nobody likes to take responsibility. But I take responsibility for the things I did that led me into that state.

I am not preocuppied with satan or his lies anymore, that tempt people to sin after identifying them I am done with them because I have replaced them with the truth. Now my eyes are fixed on Jesus.

If though, there is something truly demonic going on, (and in some cases of psychosis/exteme mania this is relevant because there is no other explanation) nobody has to feel any anxiety because Jesus always defeats Satan. Not knowing how to correctly deal with this is dangerously suicidal, and can lead to a downward emotional spiral that takes months to recover from.

I've found in times of distress, the bible and prayer have ALWAYS helped, compared to medication which didn't (in my experience) and now that I am saved make them priority for the new life I have in Christ.

I have been off prescriptive meds for nearly a year now and intend to stay off them. My decision to come off mood stablisers was made about 3 years ago. I have had about two relapses, but they were short ones, and have never been on any anti-depressants or anti-psychotics for a length of time. I've found ways to manage stress and relax my mind. I don't constantly worry about bipolar disorder anymore, or that I'm going into manic phase if I wake up at 4am (sleeplessness was one of my signs) I know exactly what to do. Training my self in good sleep habits was one of the things I had to learn. Watching what I eat is important, taking care of any vitamin deficiencies, refraining from sugar, and exercise is another. But it was really Jesus who really saved me from myself, from thinking that I was doomed to always be mentally ill just because I had this BP label.

If medication and psychiatry and ECT help you, then good for you. (from your posts it doesn't seem like it) But I know and believe otherwise from experience and am not ignorant of the facts.

Tallyn, I pray that the Lord leads you toward the truth and brings you peace the passeth all understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. Movies aren't reality, Jesus is.

Do you also believe that people who are autistic, mentally retarded, neurologically impaired, women suffering from pms dysforia disorder, post-partum depression, menopause, mongoloid, savant etc are also afflicted by demons or living in sin? Are these conditions a result of sin, not biological/neurological?

So you mentioned that you had 2 relapses in the past yr. since you ceased your meds. Does that mean that you believe during those two relapses the demon possession returned?

btw, of course i know who the holy spirit is.... i'm referring to the term used often by charismatics..... a certain doctrine in which it's believed that you do not receive the "fullness of the holy spirit" unless you experience certain gifts such as the gift of tongues etc.... as if it's this extra, higher level of salvation or spiritual enlightenment that others outside the charismatic movement do not have. That is what i mean by that statement.

Not all mentally ill patients need medication. Some people are able to manage their symptoms through therapy or exercise etc. Exercise is a very good way to manage symptoms due to the endorphins that are released into the brain. Same goes for healthy eating. Keep in mind that some people's bpd is a lot more severe than others while others may go for long stretches of time without relapsing.

Have you ever seen PET scans of what a brain looks like when in a depressed and manic state?
Are you saying that all the medical research and studies the medical community have done and learned about bpd or genetic heredity predispositions are all basically false and invented by doctors? Did you reach this conclusion on your own because of that experience you had or are you going by what you were taught by the leaders of the church you used to go to?

To be clear, you are basically saying that though you DO believe there are chemical imbalances going on in the brain during episodes of depression or mania, you don't believe these imbalanced mood chemicals are causing the extreme moods? But rather sin is what is causing the chemical imbalances? Is that what you are saying? So when jesus wept, felt sadness, dread and anxiety in the garden of gethsemane over the torture he was about to experience was he also sinning since he felt these kinds of human emotions? Are you saying feelings of sadness are a sign of spiritual weakness or unrepented sin in one's life? Is a state of constant joy the only state a strong and faithful christian supposed to be in?

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

schrodingers cat lives,

a sound mind, self-control, discipline, sound judgment to me, these are incompatible with depressions, manias, hallucinations and delusions. IMHO. You do write 'the fulness of spirit' whatever that means. "Whatever that means????" I'm sorry, but you do say you are a Christian, I'm not doubting you follow Christ in your own way, as you understand him. But I would ask you do you not understand who the Holy Spirit is, and that he dwells in you? It is not 'church lingo.' It's a reality. God didn't give us 'a spirit of moral wisdom' he gave us the Holy Spirit, and this spirit demonstrates love, power and self-control (or sound mind) You cannot change the words in the bible to suit your beliefs. We are to test all spirits, to see if they are of God. Any that does not confess to Jesus Christ come in the flesh is not the Holy Spirit.

The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's eyes. We seek God's wisdom, not earthly wisdom.
The biochemical imbalance theory for BPD - that it is CAUSED by chemical imbalance is flawed. I do not believe this adequately explains why people suffer from BPD.
Yes there are changes in chemicals in the brain when people suffer bipolar symptoms. But these do not CAUSE people the symptoms.

Diabetes is a different matter. Diabetes does not affect emotions or moods or thinking.

I do believe bipolar symptoms are partly caused by demonic oppression, affliction. It is also caused by sin, both from our sinful natures and sins against us. Jesus helped set me free from this, forgiving both my sin and sin against me in the past that wounded my soul. God showed me what incorrect beliefs I had about him, and the Holy Spirit guided me towards the truth, which is reading the word of God daily, renewing my mind with the mind of Christ and putting on the armour of God. He also changed my heart, before it was hardened toward God, because I thought *I* knew better, that my ways were right, but now I humbly submit to Him.

I didn't have to rebuke any demons, when I went for healing prayer, before I was saved, I asked to know God, and to be set free from my depression. These Christians in this life-group prayed for me, laid hands on me and after that night I went home, feeling shaken after that prayer. In the middle of the night I was woken up by my body involuntary shaken, and I started speaking in a strange tongue, and started spontaneously praising God. I didn't know what it was. Had I received the Holy Spirit, or was it demons? I think it was a bit of both, first the shaking, which was demons being shaken out of my body, and then the Holy Spirit coming in with tongues. Tongues were a sign to me beause I didn't believe. I was in no way trained or pressured into this, although I had heard about it, I did not expect it AT ALL. After this happened, I went to church for a while, said the sinners prayer and got saved. My faith then, was still the size of a mustard seed, and I still had many doubts. I was attending this pentecostal church that did faith healing, that proclaimed signs and wonders..I was skeptical. However this, made me aware of false teachers, I was able to discern the truth. I didn't agree with the church teachings which I thought were over the top and had fallen into error and pride. I experienced this 'slain in spirit' thing that freaked me out so I didn't go back!

I asked the pastor about my experience and he assured me it was the Holy Spirit and if I was unsure about anything to read the bible. It took me a long time to get round to reading the bible, but the more I read, the more I trusted, the more I began to understand. However I didn't go back to that church (it wasn't for me)

The Holy Spirit stayed with me though and led me to a bible-based church with humble Christians who loved each other, not prideful Christians (oxymoron) who thought their church was the best. I was shown that some things I had previously believed in were sinful, and I humbly repented of them, knowing Jesus had forgiven me. Not only was I shown what was wrong, I was shown what was right. And I found the cause of my bipolar symptoms in me was quite a few things. To repent of sin is something nobody likes to do, because nobody likes to believe that whatever they do is their fault, nobody likes to take responsibility. But I take responsibility for the things I did that led me into that state.

I am not preocuppied with satan or his lies anymore, that tempt people to sin after identifying them I am done with them because I have replaced them with the truth. Now my eyes are fixed on Jesus.

If though, there is something truly demonic going on, (and in some cases of psychosis/exteme mania this is relevant because there is no other explanation) nobody has to feel any anxiety because Jesus always defeats Satan. Not knowing how to correctly deal with this is dangerously suicidal, and can lead to a downward emotional spiral that takes months to recover from.

I've found in times of distress, the bible and prayer have ALWAYS helped, compared to medication which didn't (in my experience) and now that I am saved make them priority for the new life I have in Christ.

I have been off prescriptive meds for nearly a year now and intend to stay off them. My decision to come off mood stablisers was made about 3 years ago. I have had about two relapses, but they were short ones, and have never been on any anti-depressants or anti-psychotics for a length of time. I've found ways to manage stress and relax my mind. I don't constantly worry about bipolar disorder anymore, or that I'm going into manic phase if I wake up at 4am (sleeplessness was one of my signs) I know exactly what to do. Training my self in good sleep habits was one of the things I had to learn. Watching what I eat is important, taking care of any vitamin deficiencies, refraining from sugar, and exercise is another. But it was really Jesus who really saved me from myself, from thinking that I was doomed to always be mentally ill just because I had this BP label.

If medication and psychiatry and ECT help you, then good for you. (from your posts it doesn't seem like it) But I know and believe otherwise from experience and am not ignorant of the facts.

Tallyn, I pray that the Lord leads you toward the truth and brings you peace the passeth all understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. Movies aren't reality, Jesus is.

You have no idea what has helped me or what has not. If it were not for the meds and god, i'd be dead right now and my symptoms a thousand times more severe and longer lasting. Please do not be presumptuous and quick to judge about my prognosis or spiritual state. You know nothing about me.
I could address much to what you have said, but let me just say this: There is a huge difference to suffer with christ than without him. Just because we are new creations and are in christ doesn't mean that we don't experience suffering and trials. Some people are healed of certain physical ailments and some are not....who God chooses to heal or not, is up to him.

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

Sure thing

Hallucinations involve the senses. For me, its seeing a car (that was never there) swerve into my lane or my dishwasher flooding my kitchen (even though the kitchen was dry). They can occurr within the blink of an eye, or can drag on longer (I once watched a wall change colors over a period of several minutes). These are visual halucinations, but they can occurr with any of the 5 senses such as hearing voices, tactile halucinations (like seeing some worms crawl into your skin - that was a fun one), or "phantom" tastes or smells.

Delusions involve belief systems in the mind. One example is the belief that someone is trying to kill you and poisoned your food (paranoid delusion) or the belief that you are actually some long lost Prince of a foreign land. There is a delusional disorder known as "Jerusalem Syndrome" where people who visit the Holy Sites in Israel will start to believe that they themselves are Jesus Christ.

But thats not to say that delusions can't be far more subtle or dangerous. The worst delusion I had came during a depressive episode when I was reading up on some Theoretical Physics. There is the concept in theoretical physics of the "Metaverse", or parallel universes where different choices are made. I got the delusion that I could cross over into these other universes and all I had to do was kill myself to "cross over". Another delusion I had during the same episode involved the belief that everyone I cared about actually wanted me to committ suicide so that I could be free and that if I did kill myself, then they would actually cheer on the decision and be happy for me.


Fortunately, I figured out that something was seriously wrong early on in the depressive cycle and got in touch with my Dr, who increased my anti-depressants and put me on Seroquel (an anti-psychotic).

From my perspective, its easier to identify the halucinations because they don't fit with the rest of the environment. My delusions permiated every aspect of my thinking at the time, so it became harder and harder to tell which thoughts were "good" or "bad" very quickly. That my also be why I know when the halucinations started, but not the delusions; they become part of your thinking.

My first halucination (a voice that responded when I prayed) first came up when I was a teenager and first started experiencing the mood swings (specifically the severe depression). I don't know when the delusions started, but I do know that I was operating under several of them for years while on Lexapro, I never realized it until I started the Seroquel and noticed that some of my thoughts just didn't match the reality of certain situations. I'm on Abilify now and will probably remain on one anti-psychotic or another for the forseeable future because my Halucinations/Delusions can make me a danger to myself very quickly.

As always, tell your Dr and/or therapist if you even think you're experiencing either. They are far more knowledgeable and are trained to recognize the symptoms.

Type I's can experience delusions/Hallucinations during Manic Phases, Type II's typically experience them during depressive phases (Psychotic Depression).

I hope this helps!

Wow, it must be so scary to have some of those hallucinations you mentioned. I'm still trying to figure out some of my experiences. I tend to have a hyper sense of smell during manias, but i also just experienced it during this recent depression. Now i'm not sure if what i smelled was real or if i just was hyper sensitive and smelled things stronger than other people.

This past summer was the first time i was hospitalized and i experienced a very strong mixed episode which hasn't been the norm for me, so i'm still trying to make sense of that. To be honest a big part of me doesn't even want to remember that episode since it was so traumatic. At one point during a mania, i stayed up for 5 days straight.... on the 5th day my vintage tin robots were waving at me and i saw parked cars moving in reverse, but i attribute that to lack of sleep, tricks of the eyes due to an exhausted brain on overdrive. Would what i just described be considered psychosis? or just an exhausted brain?

 

[SinkingShip]

Wow, it must be so scary to have some of those hallucinations you mentioned. I'm still trying to figure out some of my experiences. I tend to have a hyper sense of smell during manias, but i also just experienced it during this recent depression. Now i'm not sure if what i smelled was real or if i just was hyper sensitive and smelled things stronger than other people.

This past summer was the first time i was hospitalized and i experienced a very strong mixed episode which hasn't been the norm for me, so i'm still trying to make sense of that. To be honest a big part of me doesn't even want to remember that episode since it was so traumatic. At one point during a mania, i stayed up for 5 days straight.... on the 5th day my vintage tin robots were waving at me and i saw parked cars moving in reverse, but i attribute that to lack of sleep, tricks of the eyes due to an exhausted brain on overdrive. Would what i just described be considered psychosis? or just an exhausted brain?

The halucinations you mentioned could have been caused by any of the items you mentioned above from the mania directly, to the sleep deprivation, to the trauma of the episode, the bigger question is whether the halucinations have been a part of the manic episodes in the past? I don't think the hyper-sensitivty to smells would be considered a halucination unless maybe you were sniffing a picture of a rose and said you could smell that actual rose, but that might be something the other posters here can provide more information on.

 

[Goodbook]

schrodinger cats lives - Firstly, why do you think I am judging you? Did you not judge me first when you asked me 'are you charismatic? are you a new Christian?' and when you said how you were a mature christian and didn't see things in black and white (like you presume I do?)

Jesus said why do you look for the speck in anothers eye when you can't see the log in your own?


I don't understand why you are being so hostile. Firstly, everyone suffers in Christ, not just BPs. Everyone has emotions. BP's emotions are extreme and just get out of hand, that's all. I admit that, I've been through it! What I'm saying is we can LEARN to control these emotions.

Absolutely, God chooses to heal those who come to him who are willing, It's definitely there if you want it. Nothing is impossible for God. That's between you and God. Also, healing takes time, don't ever think it's instantaneous, and it's different for everyone. But he does heal, because Jesus heals.

To answer your questions.. as a christian, yes, I believe sickness, suffering and disease are caused in a large measure by sin, living in a fallen world, effects of sin against us, demon affliction, consequence of sinful lifestyles etc. God doesn't intend for us to live on this earth to suffer disease and death, that was brought about by sin..the original sin. This effects our biology. The biology doesn't CAUSE anything, that's just the way it turns out. The good news is of course, Jesus can save and Jesus can heal. There is no condmenation in Christ. That's why suffering and sick people really need to hear the gospel. That's why I needed him. I doubt I would have come to him if I hadn't heared about his healing powers.

I'd like to correct your misconception about charismatic 'doctrine'. If you read in the bible, actually, it is scriptural. The gospels tell us those who repented (for John the Baptist was announcing Jesus and the Kingdom was at hand) were baptised with water, and Jesus also was baptising for remission of sins. All those who were being baptised believed in Jesus and the Kingdom. When Jesus was baptised, the Holy Spirit came on him like a dove. After Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, he walked the earth for 40 days then was taken up to heaven. Then he promised to send to all those believers (in his resurrection) the Holy Spirit. This happened at pentecost. It's in Acts chapter 2. As you read through Acts, you can see people were baptised with water and the Holy Spirit was sent to them, they spoke in tongues as a sign. Some of those were baptised just with water, but had not the Holy Spirit. So hands were laid on them, and they were in spirit.
It's not extra, I think every Christian ought to have it. For example, I'd been baptised with water, when I was young, but I fell away from the church. I didn't read the bible, didn't understand it, avoided church, never prayed. I could not in all honesty call myself a Christian, but I believed in Jesus. (kind of). I had no idea what the Holy Spirit was. I think maybe I was too young, or didn't have the sincere desire to know God that I have now. So that water baptism didn't have any effect.
The fulness of the spirit is not spiritual enlightenment ?! or a salvation - the Holy Spirit is simply a gift from God. Tongues are a sign. You can use them or not, up to you. I use them when I pray. They were for me because I didn't believe. But if you know without a doubt you have the Holy Spirit then I'm not going to judge you. People come to Christ in different ways. That was just my way.

All that medical reasearch I did was NOT because of what any church leader told me. I did my reading in books and online. We all should do this when we suffer BP, find out about the meds being prescribed, what the side effects are, what other treatment options are, talk to other BP sufferers, share our experiences.

The book Pills for the Soul by Dietzer Mulitze really helped me clarify the issues. He's done a tonne of reasearch, he's a geneticist and a Christian, and has a healing ministry called 'Deeper Love Ministries'. You can contact him, to ask about his book. I did. I found his book in a Christian bookstore.
I also was on this BP yahoo group looking at support for people coming of perscription meds, to share experiences. But all this was after I had been of meds for a while.
The relapses I had experienced were before I became a Christian, when I was still seeking. I didn't have the armour of God then.

Yes I've seen the PET scans. Interesting, but that just shows you the brain changes, nothing we don't know already. Doesn't show any causes. It's just a sign.
It's like, if you have a pimple on your chin. You use concealer to hide it. But that doesn't get rid of the pimple does it? After a while it goes away by itself. That's kind of what meds do. Or you could zap it with clearisil. But to get rid of the cause of acne, to be free from it, that's a bit more complicated..with diet, stress free living, facial hygiene.
Ok thats a bit simplistic analogy. I found I reacted badly to meds. I don't judge people for using them, I'm just saying its possible to be free of meds if you know what to do. So don't automatically assume BP have to be on meds for life, and if people come off them it's their own fault for not complying (that's what I had to deal with, with my experience..a no-win situation). There are ways to beat BP the thing is no pdoc will ever teach you how. That's a sad thing when they've become just drug dispensers. Of course, most people with BP will always be put on meds first, its just the way the world is at the moment, how people treat those having spiritual struggles, not knowing what to do. But there things that people can do and it's possible to be med free. But YOU have to take responsibility, know exactly what you're dealing with. I agree, without God, we can do nothing.

There's nothing wrong with having emotions. They aren't sin! When Jesus had emotions though, he wasn't manic or depressed in the way that BP exhibit these emotions. He reacted normally to things.

I'm not saying feeling sad is a sign of spiritual weakness or caused by unrepented sin at all. Forget about the idea of strong christian or weak christians? Why are you constantly thinking I am judging you?! There's no such thing is a strong Christian?! Nobody has that much spiritual pride to boast they are a strong Christian!!!

2 Corinthians 12:9 says
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Take care.. its not you against the world schrodingers cat lives - we are here to support each other, encourage each other. Everyone is at different stages in their BP, I'm just saying there's light at the end of the tunnel, at that light is Jesus!

 

[upabove]

Hallucinations? Wow...

 

[tallyn75]

This discussion sure has blossomed, I'll read it more in depth tomorrow. There were quite a few good and helpful points. For that I thank you.

I seem to be on the level at the moment, and it seems that the lithium the doctor put me on is helping. My next doctor's appointment is Feb 15, we'll talk then whether I need more ECTs. But I'm thinking they were over working. It would whip me out of depression and throw me into mania then after a few days I'd sink back into depression just a few days before the next ECT.

During my depressions I tend to fall into doubt. But the rest of the time, I am sure of who I am or rather who Christ has made me. I've learned that the Christian life is not a bunch of dos and don'ts. A friend of mine asked this question: What does God want?
and then suggested that God wants nothing. Nothing could be further from the truth. But surely that's the most important question one can ask. Why did God make us? He made us to love Him and be loved by Him. Then all we need to figure out is: What does it mean to love? How can we best show our love toward God?

Been listening to Toby Mac's "Made to Love"
---

The dream is fading, now I'm staring at the door
I know its over cause my feet have hit the cold floor
Check my reflection, I ain't feelin what I see
It's no mystery
Whatever happened to a passion I could live for
What became of the flame that made me feel more
And when did I forget that...

I was made to love you
I was made to find you
I was made just for you
Made to adore you
I was made to love
And be loved by you
You were here before me
You were waiting on me
And you said you'd keep me
Never would you leave me I was made to love
and be loved by you

The dream's alive with my eyes opened wide
Back in the ring you've got me swinging for the grand prize
I feel the haters spittin vapors on my dreams
But I still believe
I'm reachin out, reachin up, reachin over
I feel a breeze cover me called Jehovah
And daddy I'm on my way
Cause I was made to love...
---

Again, thanks for all the helpful feedback and comfort.

 

[Goodbook]

My favourite chapter in the Bible - 'the most excellent way'
1 Corinthians 13 (NIV)

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love


In my times I reflect on this chapter and can see I have often fallen short. Patient? Me? Kind? not boasting? not envious?? Many times with BP I've behaved the EXACT opposite. I was a child, I reasoned like a child. I didn't know God. I was following others who had no love for me at ALL, and I fell into the devil's snare.

I now humbly ask Jesus to pull me out and make me over. It's a tough job but if anyone can do it, He can.

The doubt thing was what James was talking about in his letter. James 1. 6 -8 (KJV)
"But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."

Doesn't this describe bipolar???

I had to get rid of and repent of a lot of misbeliefs that got in the way of God before I could fully know him. I really had to renew my mind, refute EVERY argument I had against Him, every lofty thought, every vain philosophy so I could bring my mind captive to Christ. God won't answer our prayers if we are calling on him but still serving someone else or ourselves. God knows we don't fully trust him if we do this. If he ever answered our prayers in this way because of us being so double-minded we won't give him any glory, so our faith would be useless. I've learned God is a jealous God, and his love for us sooo much, that he wants us to call him Father, and for us to be his children, it's that type of relationship.

My way of showing love to God is respecting him, reading his Word, praying, devotional time, praise, being thankful. A big thing is giving up things that get in the way of Him, things that are displeasing to him. The Holy Spirit guides me in this area..believe me I'm new to all this as well, before I knew God I never for a minute understood why people would do this, I thought only people who 'learned religion' did this, because it was something imposed on them by their family. I was agnostic, which is just a fancy term for saying I was lost. But now I'm found, and just that fact makes me so happy I could cry. I think with the depressions what happens is we just get lost for a while, we follow someone else who leads us astray and we can't seem to find our way back by ourselves. But if we are saved, we have assurance - I think Jesus goes after us like he does the lost sheep. As sheep we just have to trust in our shepherd and follow him only. In the Bible it says there are some false shepherds who are really wolves in sheep's clothing.
So we really have to be aware of them, the best thing to do is read the word of God more so that we know totally who we are serving, and we won't get lead astray by anyone claiming otherwise.

Glad to hear you are getting on the level. It's a good place to be!!

 

[schrodingers_cat_lives]

schrodinger cats lives - Firstly, why do you think I am judging you? Did you not judge me first when you asked me 'are you charismatic? are you a new Christian?' and when you said how you were a mature christian and didn't see things in black and white (like you presume I do?)

Jesus said why do you look for the speck in anothers eye when you can't see the log in your own?


I don't understand why you are being so hostile. Firstly, everyone suffers in Christ, not just BPs. Everyone has emotions. BP's emotions are extreme and just get out of hand, that's all. I admit that, I've been through it! What I'm saying is we can LEARN to control these emotions.

Absolutely, God chooses to heal those who come to him who are willing, It's definitely there if you want it. Nothing is impossible for God. That's between you and God. Also, healing takes time, don't ever think it's instantaneous, and it's different for everyone. But he does heal, because Jesus heals.

To answer your questions.. as a christian, yes, I believe sickness, suffering and disease are caused in a large measure by sin, living in a fallen world, effects of sin against us, demon affliction, consequence of sinful lifestyles etc. God doesn't intend for us to live on this earth to suffer disease and death, that was brought about by sin..the original sin. This effects our biology. The biology doesn't CAUSE anything, that's just the way it turns out. The good news is of course, Jesus can save and Jesus can heal. There is no condmenation in Christ. That's why suffering and sick people really need to hear the gospel. That's why I needed him. I doubt I would have come to him if I hadn't heared about his healing powers.

I'd like to correct your misconception about charismatic 'doctrine'. If you read in the bible, actually, it is scriptural. The gospels tell us those who repented (for John the Baptist was announcing Jesus and the Kingdom was at hand) were baptised with water, and Jesus also was baptising for remission of sins. All those who were being baptised believed in Jesus and the Kingdom. When Jesus was baptised, the Holy Spirit came on him like a dove. After Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, he walked the earth for 40 days then was taken up to heaven. Then he promised to send to all those believers (in his resurrection) the Holy Spirit. This happened at pentecost. It's in Acts chapter 2. As you read through Acts, you can see people were baptised with water and the Holy Spirit was sent to them, they spoke in tongues as a sign. Some of those were baptised just with water, but had not the Holy Spirit. So hands were laid on them, and they were in spirit.
It's not extra, I think every Christian ought to have it. For example, I'd been baptised with water, when I was young, but I fell away from the church. I didn't read the bible, didn't understand it, avoided church, never prayed. I could not in all honesty call myself a Christian, but I believed in Jesus. (kind of). I had no idea what the Holy Spirit was. I think maybe I was too young, or didn't have the sincere desire to know God that I have now. So that water baptism didn't have any effect.
The fulness of the spirit is not spiritual enlightenment ?! or a salvation - the Holy Spirit is simply a gift from God. Tongues are a sign. You can use them or not, up to you. I use them when I pray. They were for me because I didn't believe. But if you know without a doubt you have the Holy Spirit then I'm not going to judge you. People come to Christ in different ways. That was just my way.

All that medical reasearch I did was NOT because of what any church leader told me. I did my reading in books and online. We all should do this when we suffer BP, find out about the meds being prescribed, what the side effects are, what other treatment options are, talk to other BP sufferers, share our experiences.

The book Pills for the Soul by Dietzer Mulitze really helped me clarify the issues. He's done a tonne of reasearch, he's a geneticist and a Christian, and has a healing ministry called 'Deeper Love Ministries'. You can contact him, to ask about his book. I did. I found his book in a Christian bookstore.
I also was on this BP yahoo group looking at support for people coming of perscription meds, to share experiences. But all this was after I had been of meds for a while.
The relapses I had experienced were before I became a Christian, when I was still seeking. I didn't have the armour of God then.

Yes I've seen the PET scans. Interesting, but that just shows you the brain changes, nothing we don't know already. Doesn't show any causes. It's just a sign.
It's like, if you have a pimple on your chin. You use concealer to hide it. But that doesn't get rid of the pimple does it? After a while it goes away by itself. That's kind of what meds do. Or you could zap it with clearisil. But to get rid of the cause of acne, to be free from it, that's a bit more complicated..with diet, stress free living, facial hygiene.
Ok thats a bit simplistic analogy. I found I reacted badly to meds. I don't judge people for using them, I'm just saying its possible to be free of meds if you know what to do. So don't automatically assume BP have to be on meds for life, and if people come off them it's their own fault for not complying (that's what I had to deal with, with my experience..a no-win situation). There are ways to beat BP the thing is no pdoc will ever teach you how. That's a sad thing when they've become just drug dispensers. Of course, most people with BP will always be put on meds first, its just the way the world is at the moment, how people treat those having spiritual struggles, not knowing what to do. But there things that people can do and it's possible to be med free. But YOU have to take responsibility, know exactly what you're dealing with. I agree, without God, we can do nothing.

There's nothing wrong with having emotions. They aren't sin! When Jesus had emotions though, he wasn't manic or depressed in the way that BP exhibit these emotions. He reacted normally to things.

I'm not saying feeling sad is a sign of spiritual weakness or caused by unrepented sin at all. Forget about the idea of strong christian or weak christians? Why are you constantly thinking I am judging you?! There's no such thing is a strong Christian?! Nobody has that much spiritual pride to boast they are a strong Christian!!!

2 Corinthians 12:9 says
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Take care.. its not you against the world schrodingers cat lives - we are here to support each other, encourage each other. Everyone is at different stages in their BP, I'm just saying there's light at the end of the tunnel, at that light is Jesus!

[FONT=&quot]Seems like you are misunderstanding some things i said.
I don't think i'm being hostile, i simply disagree with you and therefore challenging your conclusions regarding bpd being caused by a sinful life style and demonic influence/possession.

When you first began expressing your beliefs about mental illness being caused by demons, i had a feeling you were possibly a new convert and a charismatic, so i just asked you before i jumped to that conclusion. That was an impression i got based on some of the beliefs you expressed, not a negative value judgment. Being a new convert or a charismatic is not a bad thing. In my experience, not all, but some charismatics tend to conclude that mental illness is a result of demon possession rather than caused by biological factors, therefore i asked you so i could get an idea of where you were coming from, sort of speak.

I'm not here to debate about the gifts of the spirit. I was baptized as an infant, which of course, meant nothing to me since i wasn't deciding to believe in anything. I was baptized again when i converted as a young adult. I didn't speak in tongues, but i did receive the holy spirit from the moment i chose to follow christ. I disagree with the belief that you need to speak in tongues upon baptism as a sign that you received the holy spirit. How can you be saved and not have the holy spirit? The two go hand in hand....the process of growth and spiritual maturity via the holy spirit, is a process of sanctification. Also, keep in mind that the account told in pentecost regarding "tongues" is a different one than what paul refers to as tongues of angels in corinthians. Anyway, i really have no interest in debating this and i'm not saying gifts of the spirit or miraculous signs no longer occur. I have witnessed many miracles in my life time and know that all things are possible with God, but i also know, as of yet, god has not chosen to cure me of bpd and it has nothing to do with the amount of faith i have or don't have to be physically healed of this biological disorder. Paul earnestly prayed for God to remove the thorn of his flesh, which many scholars believe it was a reference to his blindness, and yet God did not heal it..... are you to conclude that paul did not have enough faith to be healed? No, God's response was: "my grace is sufficient for you".....

Will address more if i have time.

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