Question for Seventh Day Adventist

[BobRyan]

Bob, Paul is not of the wicked. And he says "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ SO THAT each one may receive what is due. .

which is where your suggestion has such a huge problem. It is only the judgment of Dan 7 and Rom 2 and 2 Cor 5:10 that has the "we" of Paul's group included in it - where there are some wicked mixed in among the saved saints - dead in Christ. Resulting in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" since it has fully identified who is "the dead in Christ" and who among the living are actually saints.

Rev 20 says of all in that first resurrection "over these the second death has no power"

By contrast the second resurrection group of Rev 20 - are those over whom the second death DOES have power. That group does not include Paul.

I don't see how your suggestions survive this Bible detail.

 

[tall73]

which is where your suggestion has such a huge problem. It is only the judgment of Dan 7 and Rom 2 and 2 Cor 5:10 that has the "we" of Paul's group included in it - where there are some wicked mixed in among the saved saints - dead in Christ. Resulting in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" since it has fully identified who is "the dead in Christ" and who among the living are actually saints.

So now you are relegating Romans 2 to only the professed followers of God?

It indicates

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

Chapter 2 is a continuation of the through of chapter 1, which includes those who do not worship God at all, but worship the created things instead. So how do you reduce Romans 2 down to only professed followers?

 

[tall73]

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

It is referencing the group of Rom 2 and Dan 7 that includes the saints. Judgment has to be made to filter out the wicked from among the saints so as to identify jus "the dead in Christ" and living saints as per 1 Thess 4:13-18 so that they come up in the "First resurrection" of Rev 20 and get their reward - and the wicked are all in the second resurrection of Rev 20 over whom the second death does have power.

The verse is talking about appearing to receive Bob. No one receives anything in the IJ.

Notice, here is the judgment described on professed followers of God, faithful and unfaithful. They give account, the judgment is made, and then they receive their reward. Now does this happen in 1844?

Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[tall73]

Dan 7 says it concludes with "judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- this is irrefutable.

Dan 7 says that once the judgment is completed then authority is taken away from the beasts and Christ's kingdom is setup - this is irrefutable.

If the judgment includes the beasts it cannot be the IJ, because the people of Babylon are not professed people of God.

It is judgment for the saints, against the beasts.

Nothing is said of identifying the saints

 

[BobRyan]

If the judgment includes the beasts

The Judgment of Dan 7 includes all who have any claim at all to the blood of Christ - to be saints - it is to determine the members of the entire group "the dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4:13-18 as well as "we who are alive and remain" at that time. Romans 2:4-16 shows how that sifting/filtering determination is done. (As we have noted in these texts repeatedly so far)

It is not judgment ON the saints - it is judgment OF the saints. It deals with all who have any claim to being saints - to determine who is genuine as we see in Matt 7 and in Job 1 and 2.

 

[BobRyan]

The verse is talking about appearing to receive Bob. No one receives anything in the IJ.

The pre-advent judgment of Dan 7 - determines not only "who is the dead in Christ" using the Romans 2:13-16 filter -- but it determines the reward of the saints - for Rev 22 says when He comes "My REWARD is with Me". So 2 Cor 5:10 does apply and it shows that it must include both saved and unsaved as we see in Rom 2 -- BY CONTRAST - Rev 20 "the second death" and associated second resurrection includes only the lost.

And so as we saw here - it includes the lost and the saved as long as they have any claim at all to have appealed to the blood of Christ to cover their sins - it filters out the lost so that all that remains after the judgment are "the dead in Christ" and of course "those saints who are alive and remain" until His appearing - 1 Thess 4:13-18 as we have note repeatedly on this thread.

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

All of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly on this thread - and you keep asking for it "again"... not sure how that is helping your case.

 

[tall73]

The Judgment of Dan 7 includes all who have any claim at all to the blood of Christ - to be saints - it is to determine the members of the entire group "the dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4:13-18 as well as "we who are alive and remain" at that time. Romans 2:4-16 shows how that sifting/filtering determination is done. (As we have noted in these texts repeatedly so far)

What you refuse to explain repeatedly is how the Babylonian and Persian beasts woudn up in your IJ. They are not made up of professed believers in God on the whole. And they are not individuals.

 

[tall73]

The pre-advent judgment of Dan 7 - determines not only "who is the dead in Christ" using the Romans 2:13-16 filter -- but it determines the reward of the saints - for Rev 22 says when He comes "My REWARD is with Me". So 2 Cor 5:10 does apply and it shows that it must include both saved and unsaved as we see in Rom 2 -- BY CONTRAST - Rev 20 "the second death" and associated second resurrection includes only the lost.

Bob, it says to receive. We appear "in order to receive." I quoted multiple instances of this playing out in texts, that you would not address.

You don't receive anything in the IJ. So you still have not explained it.

And you skipped over the parable of the talents altogether. Is that because it describes

-giving account
-judgment
-receiving the reward?

When do you think the parable of the talents happens?

Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[tall73]

The pre-advent judgment of Dan 7 - determines not only "who is the dead in Christ" using the Romans 2:13-16 filter -

You didn't address that the Romans 2 "filter" as you call it includes everyone, not just the professed believers:

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

 

[tall73]

But you were an SDA once, what now is your interpretation of both the 70 week

We seem to be having a communication problem. I have posted to you several times now I accept the Adventist view of the 70 weeks.

I say again, I accept the Adventist view of the 70 weeks.

I do NOT accept the Adventist interpretation of the 2,300 days, or that they are linked.

and 1260 day prophecies?

This one I am not sure yet.

I am still considering the Adventist view as well, and have made no statement rejecting the Adventist view.

As to the 2,300 days, we were discussing it in the other thread if you want to discuss.

 

[BobRyan]

You didn't address that the Romans 2 "filter" as you call it includes everyone, not just the professed believers:

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

I address it many times in my posts so far.

1. Rom 2 is distinct from the Rev 20 second resurrection GWT judgement because it has both the saved and the lost in it - and Rev 20 has only the lost. So this can ONLY be the judgment that precedes the "first Resurrection" of Rev 20. .So a judgment process that must happen just before Christ's appearing as Dan 7 points out. Irrefutable.

2. Rom 2 provides the detail for distinguishing the saved vs the lost - so it results in fully identifying all the members of the "dead in Christ" group of 1 Thess 4:13. It results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

3. Dan 7 shows this judgment to be pre-advent and after the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints. This is the only judgment mentioned that can result in "just the dead in Christ" raised in 1 Thess 4:13-18

This is irrefutable and I don't see how your suggestions survive these Bible details.

 

[tall73]

I am looking for a timeline that illustrates other views of Daniels prophecies...remembering these also include the corresponding passages in Revelation.

Ice posted some in the other thread. You may want to talk that over with him there.

 

[BobRyan]

You don't receive anything in the IJ.

Yes ... you do.. You are placed in the group that is to be raised at he appearing of Christ -- "in the first resurrection". (if you are dead at that time).

Rev 6:11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.

Your suggestions appear to reduce to parsing exercises where you appear to respond "I prefer not"

 

[BobRyan]

What you refuse to explain repeatedly is how the Babylonian and Persian beasts woudn up in your IJ. .

On the contrary I pointed out many many times that you have conflated "Judgment on beasts" with "Judgment passed in favor of saints".

Dan 7 does not determine any judgment on beasts until judgment in favor of saints ends as the text states and as has been noted on this thread a number of times.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

All of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly on this thread - and you keep asking for it "again"... not sure how that is helping your case.

You didn't address that the Romans 2 "filter" as you call it includes everyone, not just the professed believers:

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

You might need to re-read that post above - because that is exactly what it did

 

[tall73]

May i also add an edit here after reading what Mrs White had to say about this subject...

in the type [earthly sanctuary] no sin could be confessed and conveyed into the sanctuary after the high priest entered the Most Holy. Lev. 4:1-7; 16:17,23,24. So if this was a type of the entrance of Christ into the Most Holy in heaven in 1844, then truly the door of mercy did close there, and all sinners since are lost"
​

You quoted from Canright's book, Seveth-day Adventism Renounced, while he is looking at an argument made by James White, not Mrs. White, in the Present Truth magazine from December 1849. I am guessing, but am not sure, that you likely got it from Ford's section on Canright, rather than the actual work by Canright.

Before me lies "The Present Truth," Vol. I, No. 6, December, 1849, by James White. "The Shut Door Explained," is the leading article, in which it is argued from the type Lev. 16:17, that when the high priest entered the Most Holy there could be no more pardon for sin. "On this day of atonement he is a high priest for THOSE ONLY whose names are inscribed on the bread-plate of judgment," page 44. No more salvation for sinners, is what their sanctuary theory was then used to prove. The whole volume is full of this idea.

6. Their argument from the type on this point was right; in the type no sin could be confessed and conveyed into the sanctuary after the high priest entered the Most Holy. Lev. 4:1-7; 16:17,23,24. So if this was a type of the entrance of Christ into the Most Holy in heaven in 1844, then truly the door of mercy did close there, and all sinners since are lost.

 

[tall73]

I address it many times in my posts so far.

1. Rom 2 is distinct from the Rev 20 second resurrection GWT judgement

I will go through and respond to your last round, but are you still working on it? You still did not address the parable of the talents.

It describes

-giving account
-judgment
-receiving the reward?

What period of time do you think it relates to?

Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[tall73]

Lets also add to this dilemma, Rev 8:1-5. If there are not 2 compartments in heaven, or indeed if the Holy place is this earth, how can the angel in Rev 8 possibly be standing at the altar of incense?

Berean Study Bible Par ▾
1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
​

This appears to be a response to Icedragon's view in the other thread. He may not see it here as he has not been posting here. You might try posting this in the other thread if you want his feedback.

 

[tall73]

tall73: You didn't address that the Romans 2 "filter" as you call it includes everyone, not just the professed believers:

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

I address it many times in my posts so far.

1. Rom 2 is distinct from the Rev 20 second resurrection GWT judgement because it has both the saved and the lost in it - and Rev 20 has only the lost. So this can ONLY be the judgment that precedes the "first Resurrection" of Rev 20. .So a judgment process that must happen just before Christ's appearing as Dan 7 points out. Irrefutable.

So you just ignore "upon every soul of men" and limit to your own view of what you see in Daniel 7, but can't point out in Daniel 7--individual judgment on professed believers.

Yet, the Scripture has individual judgment on all believers spelled out and the timing is different than you claim.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You earlier defined "the day" referenced here and in other texts as the second coming, 1k years, and the great white throne judgment. But now you have decided "the day" refers to 1844 to the present and beyond, pre-advent. And that "upon every soul of man" now means just the professed believers.

No, I don't think that really addresses it.

2. Rom 2 provides the detail for distinguishing the saved vs the lost - so it results in fully identifying all the members of the "dead in Christ" group of 1 Thess 4:13. It results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

If it distinguishes the detail for saved for lost, then why would it not apply to all, since it says "upon every soul of man". You seem to be re-interpreting all the verses you encounter to make them fit what you claim is in Daniel 7 but is not pictured-individual judgment on the saints.

3. Dan 7 shows this judgment to be pre-advent and after the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints. This is the only judgment mentioned that can result in "just the dead in Christ" raised in 1 Thess 4:13-18

No judgment at all is necessary for "Just the dead in Christ" being raised. God knows who to raise. And judgment is seen on all, on that day, which you previously defined as second coming, 1k years, and the great white throne judgment, but now want to define here as 1844 to the present and beyond, pre-advent.

This is irrefutable and I don't see how your suggestions survive these Bible details.

It seems what is irrefutable is you will modify any text to fit your Daniel 7 theory that you can't seem to actually show from the text--individual judgment on the professed followers of God.

By the way, what time period does the parable of the talents refer to in which they professed followers give account, are answered, judge, and receive their reward?

 

[tall73]

Tall73: You don't receive anything in the IJ.

Yes ... you do.. You are placed in the group that is to be raised at he appearing of Christ -- "in the first resurrection". (if you are dead at that time).

Rev 6:11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So to be clear, we all get our white robes when we ask Bob?

Is your goal with this post to uphold the communion of all the saints as seen by the Orthodox church, and to question the Adventist state of the dead?

They receive the robe in the text you cite not at the end of their case coming up in the judgment, which is not mentioned in this text, but rather when they cry out.

Now either

a. You suddenly take a very different view of the state of the dead.

b. This is a play on the theme of Abel's blood crying out from the ground, and no one is being given a white robe starting in 1844.

But in the text we were discussing we APPEAR before the judgment seat in order that we may receive. And that is spelled out in a number of texts. You even mentioned He brings His reward with Him. When does He bring it Bob? When do we receive it? At His coming.

For instance, we see that with professed followers of God in the parable of the talents. Why don't you explain the parable of the talents where professed followers of God give account, are judged, and receive their reward?

By the way, what time period does the parable of the talents refer to in which they professed followers give account, are answered, judge, and receive their reward?