Question for Seventh Day Adventist

[tall73]

Tall73 wrote: The judgment of professed believers in God happens in person, not in absentia as the Seventh-day Adventist teaching indicates.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

The judgment is before Christ, at His appearing.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Jesus discloses the purposes of the heart when He comes.

I addressed that here in my prior post

Where I include this near the end of that post

Saints seated in heaven with Christ all this time -- Eph 2: 5 "even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", ... not yet "in person".. for now the saints are persecuted.

Obviously we are all not personally physically in heaven at the moment -

Yes, we are spiritually with Christ. That does not at all address the texts posted that show the judgment will be before Christ, in person, and involve standing, kneeling, confession, giving an account, etc.

In the Adventist doctrine we are not aware of our name coming up, and it is in absentia. That is not what is pictured here:


2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

You have not responded to this text that says when Jesus will judge the quick and the dead.


Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Jesus discloses the purposes of the heart when He comes.

These all make plain that at Jesus' coming He reveals the secrets of the heart, we confess, we give an account etc.

 

[tall73]

The judgment has several phases

1. Judgement as Investigation out of the books that includes the saints Dan 7:9-10 such that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 and and the wicked continue to persecute the saints until that judgment completed Dan 7:25-26.

Anyone reading Daniel 7 notes the judgment is on the beasts/nations and the little horn that is persecuting the saints. After describing the first three beasts, we see:

7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

9 “I watched till thrones were ]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

This was a judgment on powers. The beast was slain. The others had their dominion removed. God has always judged nations throughout time.

Nor does this describe the Adventist investigive judgment notion that Ellen White expresses:

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. Great Controversy Chapter 28

Yet in Daniel 7 you have judgment on nations that the Adventist church identifies as Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc.

Babylon and Persia, etc. were certainly not all professed followers of God. So you have a judgment on powers, not an individual judgment.

Now you reference the saints. But what does it say?

22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

The saints are delivered from the beast by the Ancient of Days. They are here stated as a group. And this statement summarizes all the way to them possessing the kingdom, which is after the second coming.

The beast is killed at Jesus' coming:


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The summary statement you quote extends to the time of this incident, and beyond.

And the plain texts indicate that while God judged the beast prior to its destruction, the judgment of the saints happens at Jesus' coming.

As to Revelation 14

6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The hour of His judgment is come is also speaking of the judgment on the beast power, and on Babylon. Babylon is judged and is fallen. To remain within her is to suffer with her. She is already condemned.

And the warning is given that the one receiving the mark will likewise suffer. And even here the judgment against these powers is proclaimed, but the sentence is not yet carried out. We see that in subsequent chapters.

So we have a series of events:

- God judges the nations (ongoing through time, and seen in the removal of authority from the three other beasts)
- God judges Babylon (from Revelation it appears this is not the nation of Babylon but a name used for another wicked power)
- God judges the little horn/beast which is persecuting the saints
- Jesus' Second coming. Judgment is executed on the beast at His coming.
- God judges the professed followers of God in person.
- The saints begin to possess the kingdom.

Now what you have not addressed are the plain texts that tell us Jesus will judge the quick and the dead at His appearing, at His coming, in person.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

You have not responded to this text that says when Jesus will judge the quick and the dead.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Jesus discloses the purposes of the heart when He comes.

These all make plain that at Jesus' coming He reveals the secrets of the heart, we confess, we give an account etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone reading Daniel 7 notes the judgment is on the beasts/nations and the little horn that is persecuting the saints.

You are conflating "Judgment is on" with "Judgement in favor of" in Dan 7:22.

Dan 7:22 shows that the saints are subjects in that judgment so that it could pass in favor OF them.

We see that in Romans 2
And we see it in 2 Cor 5:10

What is more - the saints continue to be persecuted in that judgment that ultimately passes in their favor until the judgment is completed.

They are judged - before the second coming - out of the things written in the books - Dan 7:9-10 and according to the rules scripture lays out - in Romans 2:4-16

 

[BobRyan]

My claim is not that the Adventist and non-Adventist views are the same. My claim is about the Bible texts that support this specific Adventist doctrine.

 

[tall73]

Martin writes this in the Seventh-day Adventist chapter of "Kingdom of the Cults" -- about his prior book regarding Adventism

"In a volume such as this dealing with the problem of non-Christian cults, the question might logically be asked, 'Why include Seventh-day Adventism, especially since the writer has classified them in a full-length volume as a Christian denomination?' " (pg 409)

Yes, because he changed the Rise of the Cults based on dialogue as the earlier quote noted. So he did not classify them as a cult after dialoguing with denominational leaders, though previously he thought so and had written up the chapter before changing it.

 

[tall73]

You are conflating "Judgment is on" with "Judgement in favor of" in Dan 7:22.

Dan 7:22 shows that the saints are subjects in that judgment so that it could pass in favor OF them.

It is in favor of them as a group, and against the beast. That is why the beast is killed, because it is persecuting God's saints.

God already knows who His saints are, as He knows His own:

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

2Ti 2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

And you didn't quote the whole text:

Dan 7:21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

The statement in verse 22 extends all the way past the second coming to the saints possessing the kingdom.

As already noted the judgment was declared against the beast, and in favor of the saints, and the beast was then killed. But the beast was killed AT Jesus' coming.

Then comes the judgement on the quick and the dead:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

We see that in Romans 2

No we don't.

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

On what day? At His coming.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

And we see it in 2 Cor 5:10

No we don't.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

At the judgment seat of Christ we receive the penalty. That is not an absentia judgment.

We see this spelled out:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

 

[tall73]

What Tall73 did not include is that John the Baptizer's message was also fully "of God" even though it was not until near the end of his life that he realized that Christ would NOT be coming in, taking names, getting rid of the bad guys in Israel and setting up His kingdom on Earth.

Luke 3
7 So he (John the baptizer) was saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore produce fruits that are consistent with repentance, and do not start saying to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children for Abraham. 9 But indeed the axe is already being laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
10 And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what are we to do?”

Yes, because anyone who does not repent will be lost. And Jesus is soon to be on the scene. Some will face that wrath to come because they refuse to receive the Son.

That is a true statement.

John's father gives this inspired message in Luke 1
67 And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David—

True statement. He had raised up the Servant from the house of David, Christ.

70 Just as He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient times—
71 Salvation from our enemies,
And from the hand of all who hate us;
72 To show mercy to our fathers,
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham,
74 To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,
Would serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.

And the One who was raised up, Jesus, does that. It is a true statement.

Note He didn't say that Jesus would do it in AD. 31, or 33, or 35 etc. He is quoting the prophecies, which are true.

William Miller said Jesus would return around 1843/1844. That was a false message.

Now Miller making a false statement is not a big issue as Miller did not ultimately claim he was inspired.

But Ellen White saying that God judged people who rejected that message on biblical grounds of not knowing the day or the hour is a problem.

 

[BobRyan]

It is in favor of them as a group,

Romans 2 makes it clear that the future judgment is at the individual level - some passing and some failing. Those who pass are then "the saints" - but first they have to be identified - which is why persecution is allowed until that judgment ends - according to Dan 7 and it is why evangelism continues until that judgment ends as we saw in Rev 14:6-7

2 Cor 5:10 also shows that the future judgment was to be individual.

And Dan 7:25-28 shows that it completes before the 2nd coming

 

[tall73]

Romans 2 makes it clear that the future judgment is at the individual level - some passing and some failing.

If you have to go to a different passage to find the individual level judgment that tells you Daniel 7 is not picturing it.

But beyond that, Romans 2 indicates the following:

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Notice the parallels:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is at Jesus' coming that the secrets of the heart are judged.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

Those who pass are then "the saints" - but first they have to be identified

The passage does not show them being identified, it shows them as a group being persecuted, then as a group being delivered.

2 Cor 5:10 also shows that the future judgment was to be individual.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

At the judgment seat of Christ we receive the penalty. That is not an absentia judgment.

We see this spelled out:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

 

[tall73]

== saints not literally there "in person" for pre-advent Dan 7 judgment

Bob, I still have not seen you address this text which indicates the time for judgment is when the Lord comes. and that He will at that time disclose the purposes of the heart.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I still have not seen you address this text which indicates the time for judgment is when the Lord comes. and that He will at that time disclose the purposes of the heart.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

2 Peter 3 says that when the lord comes the earth is completely destroyed by fire.

NT writers do compress the 2nd coming, millennium and 2nd death with its Great White Throne judgment "into one big event" at times.

 

[tall73]

2 Peter 3 says that when the lord comes the earth is completely destroyed by fire.

NT writers do compress the 2nd coming, millennium and 2nd death with its Great White Throne judgment "into one big event" at times.

Sorry Bob, this judgment includes Paul, a professed believer in God:

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[tall73]

NT writers do compress the 2nd coming, millennium and 2nd death with its Great White Throne judgment "into one big event" at times.

Another text speaking of judgment at Jesus coming, including professed believers in God.

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
2 Peter 3 says that when the lord comes the earth is completely destroyed by fire.

NT writers do compress the 2nd coming, millennium and 2nd death with its Great White Throne judgment "into one big event" at times.

Sorry Bob, this judgment includes Paul, a professed believer in God:

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Sorry Tall73 - but you can't delete something Peter said by quoting Paul. the example above still "exists" where we have Peter compressing the timeline with the entire world consumed by fire and the elements themselves melting - at the 2nd coming.

1 Cor 4 does not tell us if the information is the instant the saints are raptured up into the sky to meet Jesus but still in Earth's Atmosphere (1 Thess 4:13-18 , Matt 24:29-31) - or later when they all get to heaven -- your argument relies heavily on your extreme inferences.

It is already settled according to Dan 7 and Rev 22 - before the second coming even happens. This is irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

If you have to go to a different passage to find the individual level judgment that tells you Daniel 7 is not picturing it. .

It's called exegesis - and it demands that we include the Bible statements on the same subject to get the full picture. Your apparent need to "not look" - could be what results in that statement you are making.

 

[tall73]

Let's review:

Tall 73:
Bob, I still have not seen you address this text which indicates the time for judgment is when the Lord comes. and that He will at that time disclose the purposes of the heart.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


Your response:

BobRyan:

2 Peter 3 says that when the lord comes the earth is completely destroyed by fire.

NT writers do compress the 2nd coming, millennium and 2nd death with its Great White Throne judgment "into one big event" at times.

You did not address the I Corinthians 4 passage at all.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

You mentioned another text from Peter. And you mentioned this other text to make it seem like I Corinthians is compressing several events:

NT writers do compress the 2nd coming, millennium and 2nd death with its Great White Throne judgment "into one big event" at times.

Your argument is that the following are compressed to one view:
-2nd coming
- millennium
- white throne judgment/2nd death

So are you positing a judgment on believers during any of those times?

And then I pointed out that Paul includes himself, a professed believer, in this judgment at Jesus' coming.

Tall73:
Sorry Bob, this judgment includes Paul, a professed believer in God:

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Paul includes himself in the judgment when the Lord comes, who will make manifest the counsels of the heart. It is the Lord, at His coming who judges.

Now your whole assertion about the IJ is that it is to reveal the secrets of the heart. But this text indicates that happens at Jesus' coming, we are not to judge ahead of time, but that Jesus will do so.

Now you responded with this

Sorry Tall73 - but you can't delete something Peter said by quoting Paul. the example above still "exists" where we have Peter compressing the timeline with the entire world consumed by fire and the elements themselves melting - at the 2nd coming.

I asked you about I Corinthians 4, and you responded by quoting a different text rather than responding to the one I mentioned.

Now you say I can't delete what Peter said by quoting Paul.

But that is what you just tried to do. I asked you about I Corinthians 4, and you inserted a different text.

I have no objection to what Peter said. I am asking you to explain what I Corinthans 4 says.

So let's go back to that text:

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The timing of the judgment is at Jesus' coming. Paul is included, Please explain that.

1 Cor 4 does not tell us if the information is the instant the saints are raptured up into the sky to meet Jesus but still in Earth's Atmosphere (1 Thess 4:13-18 , Matt 24:29-31) - or later when they all get to heaven -- your argument relies heavily on your extreme inferences.

I am relying on what the text says--when the Lord comes. Now could you please spell out what you think this is speaking of.

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[tall73]

Let's review:

Tall73:
It is in favor of them as a group, and against the beast. That is why the beast is killed, because it is persecuting God's saints.

I was pointing out that your allegation is judgment on individuals, examination of every case, in Daniel 7. But the text does not picture that. It pictures judgment against the beast powers and the little horn. When the judgment is given it is given in favor of the saints as a group, and against the beast, which is persecuting the Saints. The texts expresses no confusion as to who the saints are because God knows His own.


Bob Ryan:
Romans 2 makes it clear that the future judgment is at the individual level - some passing and some failing. Those who pass are then "the saints" - but first they have to be identified - which is why persecution is allowed until that judgment ends - according to Dan 7 and it is why evangelism continues until that judgment ends as we saw in Rev 14:6-7

2 Cor 5:10 also shows that the future judgment was to be individual.

And Dan 7:25-28 shows that it completes before the 2nd coming

Here you are trying to resolve the issue that the Daniel 7 judgment does not picture what you claim--individual judgment on the saints--by referring to other texts.

But you are admitting the point. Daniel 7 does not show individual judgment. It shows judgment on nations and powers, which God has done throughout time.

And yes, Romans 2, and 2 Corinthians 5 do show individual judgment. But that does not allow you to read those texts back into Daniel 7.

Tall73:
If you have to go to a different passage to find the individual level judgment that tells you Daniel 7 is not picturing it.

But beyond that, Romans 2 indicates the following:

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Notice the parallels:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is at Jesus' coming that the secrets of the heart are judged.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

At the judgment seat of Christ we receive the penalty. That is not an absentia judgment.

We see this spelled out:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

Now you ignore all the various texts I included that speak of Jesus' coming, when He questions professed believers, they answer, He reveals the secrets of the heart, etc.

And instead you respond with this:

It's called exegesis - and it demands that we include the Bible statements on the same subject to get the full picture. Your apparent need to "not look" - could be what results in that statement you are making.

Is this projection Bob? I looked at every text you presented. I noted that Daniel 7 does not show individual judgment on professed believers. I noted it includes powers (Babylon, Greece, etc.) that are not in fact all professed believers.

And because you had no answer to the context question you brought up two other texts, Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5. So I looked at those and showed how elements of those texts cannot refer to the IJ.

And then I posted a number of other texts that speak of Jesus judging, questioning, receiving an account, and delivering sentence at His coming. And you don't even try to answer them, but just say I am unwilling to look.

So if you are going to do "exegesis" by ignoring the context issue of Daniel 7 which does not picture what you claim, and instead want to look at other texts, then you have a lot to look at:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We bow
We confess
We give an account.

In the Adventist IJ we are not even aware when our name comes up, so we cannot bow, confess, give an account. But this text says we will, and is particularly in the context of professed believers.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's review:

Tall73:
It is in favor of them as a group, and against the beast. That is why the beast is killed, because it is persecuting God's saints.

I was pointing out that your allegation is judgment on individuals, examination of every case, in Daniel 7.

Indeed because how else was "the group" in that courtroom supposed to know exactly "who" the saints are - so they can pass judgment in favor of them?

Romans 2 explains how that happens as does 2 Cor 5:10 only in less detail than Rom 2.

But the text does not picture that.

Hmm so one text does not have all "the details" in it that every other text has on the same topic? Really? That is "news"??

Gal 3:8 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
John 8:58 "Abraham saw My day"

More "details" not also in the OT -- but true nonetheless

It pictures judgment against the beast powers

"In favor of the saints" (actually IN the chapter) ...
"judgment passed against the beast" (which is not actually a phrase in the chapter) -- though you keep "inserting" it. (I suppose because it is key to the suggestion you are making).

The focus in the judgment is the saints - determining who they are so that judgment then passes in favor of them.

You keep "inserting" --- "judgment passed against the beast" as if such a chapter existed in the book of Daniel.

You responded:

Bob Ryan:
Romans 2 makes it clear that the future judgment is at the individual level - some passing and some failing. Those who pass are then "the saints" - but first they have to be identified - which is why persecution is allowed until that judgment ends - according to Dan 7 and it is why evangelism continues until that judgment ends as we saw in Rev 14:6-7

2 Cor 5:10 also shows that the future judgment was to be individual.

And Dan 7:25-28 shows that it completes before the 2nd coming

Here you are trying to resolve the issue that the Daniel 7 judgment does not picture what you claim--

nope.

There I show why Dan 7 makes no mention of "judgment passed against the beast" - but rather only focuses on the saints - and that is because that Romans 2 process of determining who the saints are is the necessary step.

When A-and-B are mixed you can't do something with "just A" until you find out "what is Just A".

In real life - ALL have sinned - so simply asking "Who has sinned" does not separate out A from B.

 

[tall73]

Indeed because how else was "the group" in that courtroom supposed to know exactly "who" the saints are - so they can pass judgment in favor of them?

The text describes beasts, powers, and their rule on the earth. It then describes in particular the fourth beast, and the little horn that is persecuting.

The saints are those who are being killed by a blaspheming and murderious power for their faith. So the power is judged and those who are being persecuted are freed from its power. There was no confusion over who the saints were expressed in the text. And there was no description of the good or bad actions of the saints described. There was description of the actions of the beasts, the fourth beast, and the little horn.

Hmm so one text does not have all "the details" in it that every other text has on the same topic? Really? That is "news"??

If the text your doctrine depends on doesn't have the one detail that you are relying on--individual judgment of the stains--that is a bit of a problem.

I addressed the two texts you referenced, and am waiting on your reply on those. They have elements that don't match the pre-advent IJ either.

"judgment passed against the beast" (which is not actually a phrase in the chapter) -- though you keep "inserting" it. (I suppose because it is key to the suggestion you are making).

The beast is in fact judged.

Let's look at the vision:

Dan 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

The vision shows the beasts stripped of authority and the four beast killed. These are actions taken by God. And one of them happens at the second coming--the destruction of the beast.

From the explanation:

Dan 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
Dan 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.
Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 7:26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

The court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and detroyed to the end.

The beast is killed, along with the little horn which is part of it, his dominion is taken away by the court sitting in judgment.

The judgment is on the beast and the little horn.

"In favor of the saints" (actually IN the chapter) ...

The focus in the judgment is the saints - determining who they are so that judgment then passes in favor of them.

Now that assertion--determining who they are so that judgment then passes in favor of them, is not anywhere stated in the text. If it were you wouldn't need to refer to Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5 to try to establish it.

Nor are the good or bad actions of the saints mentioned in the text, yet the actions of the beast and the little horn are spelled out and judged.

Judgment is given in favor of the saints as a group. And this group is then seen as inheriting the kingdom, which does not happen until after the second coming.

Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

The determination of individual cases is seen to be at Jesus' coming in a number of texts. And after saying I was unwilling to look at texts, though I already had looked at the ones you presented, you again did not want to look at the ones I presented:



1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We bow
We confess
We give an account.

In the Adventist IJ we are not even aware when our name comes up, so we cannot bow, confess, give an account. But this text says we will, and is particularly in the context of professed believers.

There I show why Dan 7 makes no mention of "judgment passed against the beast" - but rather only focuses on the saints

Dan 7:26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

The text does make mention of beasts and their activities, and their judgment from the beginning of the chapter.

- and that is because that Romans 2 process of determining who the saints are is the necessary step.

The text says nothing about individual judgment of the saints, doesn't describe their activities, etc. It refers to them as a group who as a group inherit the kingdom, which is after the second coming.

It does spell out the activities of beasts and their judgment.

Now you cite Romans 2 again.

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Romans 2 talks about God judging men's secrets by Christ Jesus. Yet the secrets of men's heart are disclosed when Jesus comes and we receive commendation from God:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

There will be no doubt because we will bow and confess:

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

 

[BobRyan]

If the text your doctrine depends on doesn't have the one detail that you are relying on--individual judgment of the stains--that is a bit of a problem.

1. I never said the details for the entire doctrine all come from one text. I don't know of any SDA source that says that. You might want to check your assumptions. Check out my first 3 posts on this thread to notice that we never claim "just one text has all the details. Or check my first 3 posts on the thread you started on this same subject for Adventists to address to see "more than one chapter" as the reference.

2. Post May 14, 2021 #3 on this thread shows that Romans 2 is another text providing details for the doctrine of future judgment to the Bible writer's day.

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Indeed because how else was "the group" in that courtroom supposed to know exactly "who" the saints are - so they can pass judgment in favor of them?

hint - a review "of the details"

Romans 2 explains how that happens as does 2 Cor 5:10 only in less detail than Rom 2.

So a number of texts all speak to the subject "not just one".

However "in just" one you can get a lot of the detail - for example in Dan 7 a number of pre-advent investigative judgment details "spelled out" for the reader.

Hmm so one text does not have all "the details" in it that every other text has on the same topic? Really? That is "news"??

Gal 3:8 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
John 8:58 "Abraham saw My day"

More "details" not also in the OT -- but true nonetheless

Our interest is in the truth on that doctrine not "That every detail was or was not crammed into just one chapter"

"In favor of the saints" (actually IN the chapter) ...
"judgment passed against the beast" (which is not actually a phrase in the chapter) -- though you keep "inserting" it. (I suppose because it is key to the suggestion you are making).

The focus in the judgment is the saints - determining who they are so that judgment then passes in favor of them.

You keep "inserting" --- "judgment passed against the beast" as if such a chapter existed in the book of Daniel.

There I show why Dan 7 makes no mention of "judgment passed against the beast" - but rather only focuses on the saints - and that is because that Romans 2 process of determining who the saints are is the necessary step.

When A-and-B are mixed you can't do something with "just A" until you find out "what is Just A".

In real life - ALL have sinned - so simply asking "Who has sinned" does not separate out A from B.

John 3:
"18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil"

Which is why there is no "judgment is passed against the Beast but not in favor of the saints" sort of language in Dan 7.