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The OP can simply go to "thread tools" at top of page to correct/change Title, and/or add a PollQuestion for rapture peopke
I know it's a typo and it is kind of cute too but maybe someone with privileges that allow it can correct the spelling from peopke to people
I agree. Differences in opinion are not a sign of anything bad, at least not in and of themselves.a difference of opinion is not necessarily a proof of error. Some people may just see things differently and different is not always bad.
I had made a typo. I went back and corrected it.Excuse me? I'm saying the second coming rapture is at the end of the GT. What do you think I said? By the way could you answer this one you missed:
I was explaining the rapture is the second appearing of Hebrews 9:28. However, the second appearing in Hebrews 9:28 is not the Second Coming of Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14:5. The second appearing is only for Christians; those Christians who are looking for Him.That had to do with Hebrews 9:28
CharismaticLady said: ↑
Jesus comes with all who have died, but no where does it say he comes back with the raptured living. Those are the "we who remain."
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Douggg said: ↑
It is not the Second Coming of Jesus where every eye will see Him. Differently, it is Jesus coming a second time, which He will appear to them who are looking for him... i.e. the living who are looking for the rapture to take place.
CharismaticLady said: ↑
I totally disagree. That is the second coming. Look at Revelation 7. "those who come out of the Great Tribulation". Those are Christians who went into the GT as nominal Christians and had to give their lives as martyrs to stand up and be counted.
Inquiring minds want to know!What is the Second coming?
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Matt.16:28 fulfilled in 70 A.D. & the second coming?Hi, my name is Ashlee, I'm doing research on how Christian beliefs on the second coming differ. I have 3 sets of questions that shouldn't take long to answer, I would love anyone to participate. I will be recording these answers (all anonymously of course), but if you wouldn't mind sharing your denomination with your answers to the questions that would be Amazing, (if you don't want to share your denomination you could just say christian or other if you still want to participate), Thanks!
1. What are your beliefs around the second coming? Do you believe in a paradise after Christ comes?
2. What is the first sign of Jesus's coming that comes to your mind? Do you think how the climate is changing is a sign that Jesus is coming?
3. What, in your mind, is more emphasized about the second coming, paradise or judgement?
Your answers can be as long or short as you likeHave a great day!
27For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
There are various Futurist interpretations of Matt.16:28:
1. It refers to the transfiguration passage immediately following it in the context of Mt.16:28 & the other 2 parallel passages in the other gospels:
"It is important to see when Matthew 16:28 was literally fulfilled. To find a literal fulfillment we need only look to the next chapter (Matthew 17), where we find that the "some standing here" refers to Peter, James and John and "seeing the Son of man coming in His kingdom" refers to the transfiguration. This is confirmed by 2 Peter 1:16-18 where the transfiguration is said to be "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The transfiguration was a marvelous preview of the Lord's future coming in His kingdom majesty."
Preterism and Matthew 16:28
"The Lord's promise refers to literally seeing—in a picture . . . in a foreview—the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (a preview of Christ in the glory of His kingdom), which is in perfect accord with all other scripture revelation on the subject, and particularly as to the nature of the kingdom. It is in perfect harmony with all other scripture (2 Pet. 1:20), including the immediate context, and thus the correct and genuine literal interpretation."
Preterism Answered - Matthew 16:28
"Moreover, against the idea that this verse refers to A.D. 70 is the pivotal fact that some of the disciples “standing” there were no longer alive by A.D. 70 (all but John had been martyred by then). Still further, no astronomical events occurred in A.D. 70, such as the stars falling from heaven and the heavens being shaken (Matthew 24:29). And Jesus did not return “on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30)."
The Problem with Preterism | Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries
2. It is conditional based on Israel's repentance, which did not occur at that time or during that generation:
"The subjunctive mood calls attention to the contingent (i.e., dependent) nature of what is being affirmed. It speaks of the connection which obtains between what is affirmed and that upon which the affirmation depends for its fulfillment...if that upon which a declaration expressed in the subjunctive mood depends, is not unrevisably certain, the declaration itself is revisable and is not certain to occur... if the will of God, then revealed, was not peremptory, then these prophecies were not certain to occur in that generation...It should be noted that the prophecies of the establishment of the kingdom within that present generation of Israelites to whom Christ came, were necessarily provisional. They were contingent upon Israel’s national repentance and acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour.
This Generation
"This indeterminacy may be a bigger issue than it might appear at first. There are several schools of thought that see a "parenthesis" in this period, corresponding to the age of the Church--cf. Rom 11.25, and some that see the entire event-stream as being conditional like the prophecy of Jonah 3.4. There were Jewish groups that also held this conditional nature of the timing of the 2nd Advent. So Keener (BBC:115) summarizes:"
"Jewish teachers struggled with a tension between two positions: (1) one could predict when the Messiah would come, in a time ordained only by God; and (2) one could not predict his coming, but he would come whenever Israel repented and wholly followed God. This is a distinct possibility." http://christianthinktank.com/qaim.html
3. "...of the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; was confirmed by signs and wonders, and made effectual to the conversion and salvation of many souls; which many then present lived to see, and were concerned in"(Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)
"The reference, beyond doubt, is to the firm establishment and victorious progress, in the lifetime of some then present, of that new kingdom of Christ, which was destined to work the greatest of all changes on this earth, and be the grand pledge of His final coming in glory." (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)
"This inclineth others to think, that it is to be understood of Christ’s showing forth his power in the destruction of Jerusalem. But the most generally received opinion, and which seemeth to be best, is, that the coming of the Son of man here meant is, his resurrection from the dead. His ascension into heaven, and sending the Holy Spirit, after which the kingdom of grace came with a mighty power, subduing all nations to the Lord Jesus Christ. He was declared, (or determined), to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Romans 1:4. And when, after his resurrection from the dead, they asked him, Acts 1:6, whether he would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel, he puts them off, and tells them for an answer, Acts 1:8, But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth. And then, Acts 1:9, he in their sight ascended up into heaven. Then did the kingdom of the Son of man come with power, Acts 2:33-36, they knowing assuredly that the Son of man, whom the Jews had crucified, was made both Lord and Christ, as Acts 2:36, and, as Acts 2:34,35, set at God’s right hand, (according to the prophecy of David, Psalm 90:1), until his enemies should be made his footstool. (Matthew Poole's Commentary)
"His conspicuous coming to judgment (see Gnomon on Matthew 16:13) is meant, which would begin to follow immediately after His ascension." (Bengel's Gnomen)
"Son of man coming in his kingdom - Mark and Luke have explained this: Mark 9:1, "Until they have seen the kingdom of God come with power;" Luke 9:27, "Till they see the kingdom of God." The meaning evidently is, "till they shall see my kingdom," i. e., my church, now small, feeble, and despised, greatly enlarged, established, and spreading with great rapidity and extent. All this was accomplished. All these apostles, except Judas, lived to see the wonders of the day of Pentecost; some of them, John particularly, saw the Jewish nation scattered, the temple destroyed, the gospel established in Asia, Rome, Greece, and in a large part of the known world." (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)
4. "to have regard to his coming, to show his regal power and authority in the destruction of the Jews; when those his enemies that would not he should reign over them, were ordered to be brought and slain before him; and this the Apostle John, for one, lived to be a witness of..." (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible @ Matthew 16:28 Commentaries: "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.")
"This advent is doubtless the destruction of Jerusalem, which, as it occurred only some forty years after this time, some of his auditors, apostles and the multitude, would live to behold. This great event was a type of the second advent, the two being closely connected by Christ himself (see ch. 24.)." (Pulpit Commentary)
5. "And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ."
"Here we see how Simeon was promised that he would behold the object of his delight before he should taste of death. This is precisely what Jesus is promising his hearers in Matthew 16:27-28!"
"For evidence to support the idea that individuals would behold the kingdom in power and glory, take a look at Stephen’s martyrdom in Acts 7:"
"Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.”
"Notice again that the immediate context of the coming of the son of man passage in focus is persecution and martyrdom:
"From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?"
"Now, what is it about this context that would lead a person to think of a single, impersonal event 40 years in the future? It just isn't there.
"Instead, the similarities between the martyrdom in Acts 7 and the promise in Matthew 16 are staring us in the face"
Todd Dennis - Matthew 16:27-28 is NOT a "Preterist Time Indicator" pointing to AD70 (2008) @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology
-----------------------------------------------------------
"At least six plausible possibilities have been advanced.
1. Jesus looked to His resurrection.37
2. Jesus meant His ascension.38
3. Jesus looked ahead to the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost.39
4. Jesus pointed to a coming in A.D. 70—the preterist view.40
5. Jesus referred to the advance of His kingdom through the church.41
6. Jesus had the transfiguration in mind.42"
https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj14a.pdf
Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) said: ↑
Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!
Huh?The Pretrib rapture of the Body of Christ was only revealed to Paul and was kept hidden from the OT prophets, so its impossible to find it in the OT.
Them in Revelation 7 are not in resurrected/nor raptured (translated) bodies. They are the martyrers of Revelation 6, the fifth seal:Well, doesn't Rev. 7 say "these are those who come out of the Great Tribulation." So they didn't die before the GT, they were in it.
Huh?
What about the other NT Apostles?
Sounds like the makings of a good thread.............
Fulfilled in the 1st century up to 70AD..........
"WHERE THE BODY is, there the EAGLES be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17-- and Revelation
Matthew 24:
28 for wherever the corpse<4430> may be, there shall the eagles/vultures be gathered together<4863>.
40“Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 “Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Luke 17
34 ‘I say to you, In that night, there shall be two men on one couch, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
35 two women shall be grinding at the same place together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
36 two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.’
37 And they answering say to him, ‘Where, sir?’ and he said to them, ‘Where the body [is], there will the eagles be gathered together.’
To all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on a rapture, if not actively refute that theory.
So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they hold the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and sometimes rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.
Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, so they avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore it’s not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact, unbiblical and comes under the category of mankinds teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.
You guys on the other hand, have many many contradictions you must play out, over write, and speak out before your theology works out for you. My view has the least amount of contradiction and that is why I hold to it. I have taught evangelism at a mega church, wrote evangelism books, and even authored contrary soteriological journals from two differing perspectives. What I say is not what a seminary will tell you, because it is very rare. It comes from years and years of experience dealing with contradiction. I don't expect you guys to believe me, and that is not my point. I have never ever convinced any debater her to change their mind, on really anything. That is because debate is some type of work of the flesh. That is why I only do it sparingly, but admit I can get drawn into trying to fix everyone's views. But the problem with fixing everyone is that it causes pride. There is a reason why people believe heresy, and most of it is not a lack of study, but I believe by God's sovereignty that God has people in certain sects on purpose due to various character flaws they have. In the Bible heresy is a work of the flesh. If you have a friend who is mormon or jehovah's witness, or church of Christ, or adventist, or united Pentecostal, or any other unorthodox viewpoint, there is a reason why God allowed them to be susceptible to that particular error. And who am I to go against God? I used to do the same thing with stocks, I would have a great stock pick and it would be doing great, but as soon as I shared it it would God down. And I always wondered why. It was because some of the people I was sharing it to, God did not want to be successful, He was chastening them with poverty, and I was going against the will of God, so God would allow the stock to tumble. As soon as my heart was right and I stopped telling others how to trade, my trades got much better. God was allowed to bless me by isolating my account from others. This is why debate will never work. See say I am completely deceived, well that is because possibly I have pride, and God is working that pride out. So nothing you can say will change my mind, because God has to humble me through a trial. I can say the exact same thing to you, you may feel you know what is right, and that you have studied it for years and came to this conclusion through the Holy spirit. But I have talked to many mormans who believe they have confirmation from God that they are correct. They even had a burning in the bosom to make sure everyone else knows they are in the truth. But it just happens that in eternity they will populate their own planet with infinite pregnant wifes. Which is horrifically opposite of biblical christianity, we are not God, nor are we to condone polygamy. But they believe they are in the truth, so nothing I can say will convince them. I have talked to atheists numerous times, and I can say something totally logical, that needs no external validation to be true, it's totally internally true within itself, and they will deny it. Because in accepting it they must say they were wrong. So again all I can say is read the Bible, get your heart right with God, if you have pride, humble yourself. You may not be right, I may not be right. But in thinking you are right, you self condemn yourself. Because now you have intellectual pride. And that will allow you to have further delusion Anyway, thanks for the debate. Right now my tasks for today are to catch up on reading the Bible, pray for others, and so some chores to please my wife. I don't feel like fighting with people I don't know all day on silly things, that God has predispositioned them not to accept anyway. So take care.Question for rapture peopke
I know it's a typo and it is kind of cute too but maybe someone with privileges that allow it can correct the spelling from peopke to people
Well ... you have posted 15,442 times and are still going so that might imply that you like it enough to stay.I often refer them to other places. This is a place to lose your faith, not gain it.
Would that be the view you haven't revealed to anyone in this thread?My view has the least amount of contradiction and that is why I hold to it.
I have left several times. But now my reason for staying is to witness of God's power. I can honestly care less what they believe about the rapture. That is not an essential doctrine of the christian faith. I mean who cares if the carpets in church are red, or blue, or green? Lets talk about the power of the gospel over addiction. Let talk about the life changing aspect of Christ.Well ... you have posted 15,442 times and are still going so that might imply that you like it enough to stay.
I never thought of the gospel as a cure all for addictions. While it is true that some Christians do overcome addiction to alcohol or drugs as part of their conversion it is also true that some do not.Lets talk about the power of the gospel over addiction.
I never thought of the gospel as a cure all for addictions. While it is true that some Christians do overcome addiction to alcohol or drugs as part of the conversion it is also true that some do not.
For some people what you experienced is what they experience and for some it is not. Some Christians die without overcoming all of their addictions, not least being their addiction to sin.The one purpose for christianity is to overcome the power of sin. When we overcome addiction, we testify to the power of the gospel. It allows us to associate with others weakness and point them to the transformational power of Jesus. To the person who is still addicted, after being a christian. That is only a matter of time. It took me twenty years to overcome some addiction. But ninety percent of my addictions were healed in one year, after rededicating to the Lord. And submitting to His Lordship. The same power that raised Christ from the dead is alive in us. And will change our lives to the better, if we allow it to.
It is indeed legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. But when anyone denies that there will be a rapture they are denying explicitly stated scripture. And pretending that it needs to be mentioned in the Old Testament prophecies to be true is pure nonsense. The New Testament writers were prophets, just as much as the Old Testament writers were.Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!
I was explaining the rapture is the second appearing of Hebrews 9:28. However, the second appearing in Hebrews 9:28 is not the Second Coming of Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14:5. The second appearing is only for Christians; those Christians who are looking for Him.
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