Question for evolutionist

[sandwiches]

Well that may be true about bacteria. I don't claim to be a expert on evolution nor am I trying to prove it wrong. I am asking questions to the best of my knowledge in the field of ToE. So you dont have to come back with a giant "WRONG" at the beginning of your post.

Are you saying that a Bacteria is a more evolved mammal as a Human? Because that is not what I was trying to say. Sorry.

My point and question is, as Humans why did we seem to devolve when it comes to the immune system compared to other mammals. A Chimp or Ape for instance is so much more resistant to germs than a Human. ( A much better immune system) Why?

We didn't devolve. If at any point in our past, chimp and human immune system were equally effective and our has indeed been declining, then it may be partly attributed to our advancements in technology and science. Those of us with readily available medicine and medical technology don't really need to have as strong an immune system to live. Besides medicine, our hygiene, food preparation, and other factors have attributed to not really needing to have the same level of immunities that many other animals do.

Having said all that, remember that humans are immune to many diseases that other apes and animals are not.

 

[1611AV]

I would not say necessary since God is all powerful. Lets say the evidence points to this being the way God did it.



You lost me at the end there. That they believe God could just make a man has no bearing on their belief in evolution. They believe God used evolution to create man because they believe in God and because of the overwhelming evidence for evolution.




Don't even have clue one where you came up with this since it does not seem to be supported or even referenced by the proceeding sentences but you are once again equating bible belief with rejection of evolution.

So.... No response?

Here is my response to your post.

would not say necessary since God is all powerful. Lets say the evidence points to this being the way God did it.

Show me the evidence. In both what we can observe and in the Bible.

You lost me at the end there. That they believe God could just make a man has no bearing on their belief in evolution. They believe God used evolution to create man because they believe in God and because of the overwhelming evidence for evolution.

They can believe in "God", But that does not make them a Bible Believing Christian. People say they believe in God without ever reading a Bible.

Don't even have clue one where you came up with this since it does not seem to be supported or even referenced by the proceeding sentences but you are once again equating bible belief with rejection of evolution.

Because altho Evolution does not completely dismiss the possibility that God exists. The Bible never once speaks of Evolution in any way shape or form. God went through all that trouble to give us his spoken word. He told us that he created Adam out of the dust of the Earth and breathed life into his nostrils. And in order for evolution to fit in there, people are forced to change the Word of God into a poem or a parable or myth ect...

If we used that same argument against ToE, we would be laughed to scorn among those who profess evolution.

Maybe Darwin was a true Bible Believing Christian who just made it look like he was talking about evolution when in reality he was just speaking in parables. Come on...

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Well that may be true about bacteria. I don't claim to be a expert on evolution nor am I trying to prove it wrong. I am asking questions to the best of my knowledge in the field of ToE. So you dont have to come back with a giant "WRONG" at the beginning of your post.

Are you saying that a Bacteria is a more evolved mammal as a Human? Because that is not what I was trying to say. Sorry.

My point and question is, as Humans why did we seem to devolve when it comes to the immune system compared to other mammals. A Chimp or Ape for instance is so much more resistant to germs than a Human. ( A much better immune system) Why?

Simply put, it's not. Chimps are as prone to disease as we are. The only reason that humans seem to get more diseases is that we're just so much more aware of:
a) when another human is ill (could you tell a sick rabbit from a healthy one?),
b) what diseases there are for humans (dogs get as many diseases as humans, but we're obviously more preoccupied with the human ones), and
c) when there are outbreaks all over the world, raising our awareness of human diseases.

Simply put, humans aren't that much more prone to diseases than other animals.

 

[1611AV]

We didn't devolve. If at any point in our past, chimp and human immune system were equally effective and our has indeed been declining, then it may be partly attributed to our advancements in technology and science. Those of us with readily available medicine and medical technology don't really need to have as strong an immune system to live. Besides medicine, our hygiene, food preparation, and other factors have attributed to not really needing to have the same level of immunities that many other animals do.

Having said all that, remember that humans are immune to many diseases that other apes and animals are not.

Chimps and Apes are also localized animals where Humans are extremely migrant and exposed to many more diseases than Chimps and Apes. It would stand to reason that we should have evolved a better immune system than Chimps and Apes. Especially since that is what most evolutionists agree we evolved from. A primate.

I just think it is interesting.

 

[sandwiches]

Chimps and Apes are also localized animals where Humans are extremely migrant and exposed to many more diseases than Chimps and Apes. It would stand to reason that we should have evolved a better immune system than Chimps and Apes. Especially since that is what most evolutionists agree we evolved from. A primate.

I just think it is interesting.

Better is subjective. Chimps and other apes are affected by some diseases we're not.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Chimps and Apes are also localized animals where Humans are extremely migrant and exposed to many more diseases than Chimps and Apes. It would stand to reason that we should have evolved a better immune system than Chimps and Apes. Especially since that is what most evolutionists agree we evolved from. A primate.

I just think it is interesting.

Except we're actually not as exposed to disease as you would think, in spite of our travelling, because humans engage in all sorts of artificial means to avoid exposure that chimps and apes do not.

 

[badtim]

Now if you do not agree with me in all things I will have no further discussion with you on the matter.

fixed that for you.

 

[Belk]

Here is my response to your post.


Show me the evidence. In both what we can observe and in the Bible.

Why? You have already stated you will reject it out of hand.

They can believe in "God", But that does not make them a Bible Believing Christian. People say they believe in God without ever reading a Bible.

True. But not believing the bible says the exact same thing you believe it says does not mean they are not a bible believer.

Because altho Evolution does not completely dismiss the possibility that God exists. The Bible never once speaks of Evolution in any way shape or form. God went through all that trouble to give us his spoken word. He told us that he created Adam out of the dust of the Earth and breathed life into his nostrils. And in order for evolution to fit in there, people are forced to change the Word of God into a poem or a parable or myth ect...

Evolution no more addresses God then it does Energizer batteries. Another thing not mentioned by the bible. There are, in point of fact, a large number of things that the bible does not address. Are you going to start advocating against the germ theory of disease? As far as changing the word of God, are you claiming that you know the mind of a perfect all powerful all knowing being? Because unless you are you have no more information on what God's word means then any other Theist.

If we used that same argument against ToE, we would be laughed to scorn among those who profess evolution.

Yes, you would. Oh, unless you had evidence. Got any evidence that Darwin was speaking metaphorically? Have any information that God was not? Because the theists who believe the TOE have a large body of evidence suggesting that he was.

Maybe Darwin was a true Bible Believing Christian who just made it look like he was talking about evolution when in reality he was just speaking in parables. Come on...

And maybe Darwin was simply presenting the evidence he found and trying to make sense of the world. Same as all the rest of us humans.

 

[1611AV]

Except we're actually not as exposed to disease as you would think, in spite of our travelling, because humans engage in all sorts of artificial means to avoid exposure that chimps and apes do not.

Actually looking at this as a process of evolution. I would say that Chimps are evolving faster than Humans as far as the immune system is concerned.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Actually looking at this as a process of evolution. I would say that Chimps are evolving faster than Humans as far as the immune system is concerned.

And I'd agree -- so what?

 

[pgp_protector]

Actually looking at this as a process of evolution. I would say that Chimps are evolving faster than Humans as far as the immune system is concerned.

By helping those with weaker immune systems to survive & reproduce, the ones with weaker immune systems pass on the weaker immune systems to further generations.

Where in Chimps, those with the weaker immune systems tend to die off & not reproduce.

 

[1611AV]

Why? You have already stated you will reject it out of hand.

Well for one if you don't then we can not continue.

True. But not believing the bible says the exact same thing you believe it says does not mean they are not a bible believer.

What? I don't follow

Evolution no more addresses God then it does Energizer batteries. Another thing not mentioned by the bible. There are, in point of fact, a large number of things that the bible does not address. Are you going to start advocating against the germ theory of disease? As far as changing the word of God, are you claiming that you know the mind of a perfect all powerful all knowing being? Because unless you are you have no more information on what God's word means then any other Theist.

This is just a big rant of empty reply.

Yes, you would. Oh, unless you had evidence. Got any evidence that Darwin was speaking metaphorically? Have any information that God was not? Because the theists who believe the TOE have a large body of evidence suggesting that he was.

God always lets us know when he is speaking in a parable. Again we who are spiritual understand spiritual things. Now unless you are Born again (Born in the Spirit) you can neither understand this nor disprove it.

And maybe Darwin was simply presenting the evidence he found and trying to make sense of the world. Same as all the rest of us humans.

I truly believe he was.

 

[Belk]

Well for one if you don't then we can not continue.

Why not? Are you claiming you are unaware of the basics of what evolution states? I have seen you have talks that seemed fairly well informed on the fundamentals in the past. If you need something specific you can always go to TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy

What? I don't follow

Claiming that people don't believe the bible because they have a different understanding of it then you do is fallacious.

This is just a big rant of empty reply.

Really? Show me where the germ theory of disease is in the bible. If it is not referenced in the bible why do you not reject it also? What is your criteria for rejecting things that are not in the bible?

God always lets us know when he is speaking in a parable. Again we who are spiritual understand spiritual things. Now unless you are Born again (Born in the Spirit) you can neither understand this nor disprove it.

Very well, do all Christians have this? If so why are their 38,000 different denominations? If not then how are we to tell who really is talking to God? I submit that it would likely be the ones with outside corroborative evidence. I think the ones more likely to be right are the ones who agree with the findings we come to through independent studies.

I truly believe he was.

I'm sorry, you truly believe he was what?

 

[Phred]

According to ToE. a Human is at the pinnacle of the process thus far.

Nope. According to the ToE all animals alive right now are suited for the niches that they occupy until a better one comes along. Nothing more, nothing less. There is a constant mistaken belief among all people, not just creationists that human beings are the end all of evolution. That we are/were the goal of evolution. Far from it. We're just here now and intelligent. But we can't digest nylon like some bacteria can. So we'd be terrible at what they do best.

Why does modern man seem to be effected by so much disease, and animals seem to be so much more immune to them.

Because we have doctors and hospitals that work to cure only humans. So you have, in your face, all sorts of human misery due to sickness and you're aware of it. I'm sure there are animal cancers and animal diseases and animal viruses and all sorts of animal ills that we don't give a flying hoot about. Besides, sick humans are cared for and live for long periods of time. Sick animals get eaten. That statement just isn't true.

Are you saying that a Bacteria is a more evolved mammal as a Human?

Bacteria and no more and no less evolved than humans are. They are not mammals however.

My point and question is, as Humans why did we seem to devolve when it comes to the immune system compared to other mammals. A Chimp or Ape for instance is so much more resistant to germs than a Human. ( A much better immune system)

They are not. They just get sick from different viruses than we do.

Because altho Evolution does not completely dismiss the possibility that God exists. The Bible never once speaks of Evolution in any way shape or form.

Internal combustion engines don't completely dismiss the possibility that God exists either. But, like evolution they don't have anything to DO with whether God exists or not.

God went through all that trouble to give us his spoken word.

Or a bunch of guys SAID they got these stories from a god. I think that's far more likely.

 

[1611AV]

Why not? Are you claiming you are unaware of the basics of what evolution states? I have seen you have talks that seemed fairly well informed on the fundamentals in the past. If you need something specific you can always go to TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy

OK

Claiming that people don't believe the bible because they have a different understanding of it then you do is fallacious.

I dont make that claim. The Bible is Truth, we either receive it or reject it.

Really? Show me where the germ theory of disease is in the bible. If it is not referenced in the bible why do you not reject it also? What is your criteria for rejecting things that are not in the bible?

If the Bible explained the germ theory of disease and it differed from mans version, I would believe the Bible. I don' t reject something just because God did not speak about it at all. I reject it if God did say something about it and it differs from what man says.

Don't know if I can make that more clear.

Very well, do all Christians have this? If so why are their 38,000 different denominations? If not then how are we to tell who really is talking to God? I submit that it would likely be the ones with outside corroborative evidence. I think the ones more likely to be right are the ones who agree with the findings we come to through independent studies.

LOL, I have asked many self proclaiming Christians that myself. Now you are stepping into what Satan has touched. The perversion of Gods Pure Word. There is only one Holy God, One Truth, One Holy Bible.

I'm sorry, you truly believe he was what?

simply presenting the evidence he found and trying to make sense of the world. But I will add without ever becoming a Christian.

 

[1611AV]

Or a bunch of guys SAID they got these stories from a god. I think that's far more likely.

Phred, Do you believe in God?

 

[pgp_protector]

Phred, Do you believe in God?

their faith icon ->

So I'd guess.... Um... No.

 

[Belk]

OK




I dont make that claim. The Bible is Truth, we either receive it or reject it.

So you do not say that people who believe in evolution are not bible believers?

If the Bible explained the germ theory of disease and it differed from mans version, I would believe the Bible. I don' t reject something just because God did not speak about it at all. I reject it if God did say something about it and it differs from what man says.

What if there was multiple ways to read how the bible explained Germ theory and one of those closely matched what we had found through testing? Wouldn't that seem to indicate that might be the correct interpretation?

Don't know if I can make that more clear.



LOL, I have asked many self proclaiming Christians that myself. Now you are stepping into what Satan has touched. The perversion of Gods Pure Word. There is only one Holy God, One Truth, One Holy Bible.

Thank goodness you where one of the lucky ones who perceives the truth! Not like those other people who think they perceive the truth but are blinded by Satan.
Nope. There is no possible way for you to be wrong. Even if all the evidence we have been able to come up with points in that direction.

simply presenting the evidence he found and trying to make sense of the world. But I will add without ever becoming a Christian.

You have the power to tell if a man you never meet was a Christian or not?

 

[Tiberius]

Why is it so important that christians abandon their faith and start believing in evolution in stead?

Now you could argue the same way about creation, but we have an answer: if someone offer you the ability to be immortal, and have eternal life as a free gift from God, it would be a disaster if we did not witness about what Jesus did on the cross! He forgave you all your sins!

No one is saying that you can't be a Christian if you accept evolution.

As an atheist, all I say is that you should accept or disregard things based on evidence. if there is evidence for something, then accept it. if there is no evidence, then you shouldn't accept it until there is evidence.

 

[1611AV]

So you do not say that people who believe in evolution are not bible believers?

I say to them, show me Biblically.

What if there was multiple ways to read how the bible explained Germ theory and one of those closely matched what we had found through testing? Wouldn't that seem to indicate that might be the correct interpretation?

There is not multiple ways. The Bible is clear on that.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which SEEMETH right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Thank goodness you where one of the lucky ones who perceives the truth! Not like those other people who think they perceive the truth but are blinded by Satan.
Nope. There is no possible way for you to be wrong. Even if all the evidence we have been able to come up with points in that direction.

Praise God!!! Not thank goodness. No luck involved, that would be more Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist. No there is no way Im wrong because I Repented of my sin and Believe the Gospel according to the scriptures.

1 Corinthians Chapter 15:1-4

15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You have the power to tell if a man you never meet was a Christian or not?

The Bible tells us we can know. We will know them by there fruit. Darwins fruit was evolution not a heart for seeing the lost come to receive the Lord Jesus Christ.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



Matthew Chapter 7:13-23
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

According to verse 22-23 Some who claim to have known Jesus were deceived or believed in vain.