Question for evolutionist

[Nathan Poe]

So for a Christian who accepts evolution, evolution is necessary by God to make a Human man.

Not necessary -- just the way He chose to do it.

Nothing is "necessary" for a god -- He does what he wants how he wants for no other reason than He wants it done that way.

 

[USincognito]

How does evolution deal with the mass extinctions that have been explained by many scientists?

Mass extinctions have been evolution "drivers" over the eons. When a great number of species die off, that allows for the niche exploitation and geographical isolation that facilitates the punctuated part of Punk Eek. Or were you referring to the events that caused the extinctions themselves?

Ice ages, Mass flooding and that sort.

Normal geological or meteorological phenomena. Sometimes they effect populations or evolution. Sometimes they don't.

It seems that they would really set things back if you look at a single cell evolving all the way to a complex creature as a Human.

Why? Do you think that these events killed off all multi-cellular life and it arose repeatedly? The fossil and genetic evidence doesn't show that. After the advent of more complex life about 750 million years ago, there's never been a time when there weren't some complex species around to evolve. The Permian-Triassic extinction event was devestating, but life continued and recovered over the next hundred million years. The Triassic-Jurassic and Cretaceous-Tertiary (or Creataceous-Paleogene) events weren't as widespread across families and genera.
Permian–Triassic extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean you can only go back so far until you have a earth that was mostly volcanic. There does not seem to be enough time for it to happen.

You have to go back about 4 billion years, 500 million before the first life and about 3 billion before the first complex life.

How does ToE explain this?

You ever heard of this thing called The Internet.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How does evolution deal with the mass extinctions that have been explained by many scientists? Ice ages, Mass flooding and that sort. It seems that they would really set things back if you look at a single cell evolving all the way to a complex creature as a Human. I mean you can only go back so far until you have a earth that was mostly volcanic. There does not seem to be enough time for it to happen.

How does ToE explain this?

Mass extinction events wiped out 50-90% of all life. We can see the strange and seemingly alien taxa that were utterly wiped out. But not all life died out. The dinosaurs (mostly) went extinct, but small mammals were lucky enough to survive. They repopulated the Earth, quite spectacularly.

I don't really see anything about mass extinction events that would cause the theory of evolution much difficulty. Things die, and occasionally things die en masse.

 

[1611AV]

Mass extinction events wiped out 50-90% of all life. We can see the strange and seemingly alien taxa that were utterly wiped out. But not all life died out. The dinosaurs (mostly) went extinct, but small mammals were lucky enough to survive. They repopulated the Earth, quite spectacularly.

I don't really see anything about mass extinction events that would cause the theory of evolution much difficulty. Things die, and occasionally things die en masse.

So, then we are here by chance. Because of what particular things died off. It gave opportunity for other life to emerge and continue to evolve. If say the dinosaurs survived and the mammals went extinct, we would have a much different world today, one that probably would not include humans. Is that a fair statement in regards to ToE.?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

How does evolution deal with the mass extinctions that have been explained by many scientists? Ice ages, Mass flooding and that sort. It seems that they would really set things back if you look at a single cell evolving all the way to a complex creature as a Human. I mean you can only go back so far until you have a earth that was mostly volcanic. There does not seem to be enough time for it to happen.

How does ToE explain this?

Mass extinctions give rise to new opportunities for the organisms that survive. We are here because our mammalian ancestors survived and fill the niches that were wiped clean during mass extinctions.

To quote Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park..."life finds a way"

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So, then we are here by chance. Because of what particular things died off. It gave opportunity for other life to emerge and continue to evolve. If say the dinosaurs survived and the mammals went extinct, we would have a much different world today, one that probably would not include humans. Is that a fair statement in regards to ToE.?

It is indeed. The theory describes how life can react to selection pressures, and also how it has previously reacted to selection pressures. What those selection pressures actually are, however, are effectively due to chance (meteors obey the laws of physics, but, for all intents and purposes, collisions are 'random' events).

 

[1611AV]

It is indeed. The theory describes how life can react to selection pressures, and also how it has previously reacted to selection pressures. What those selection pressures actually are, however, are effectively due to chance (meteors obey the laws of physics, but, for all intents and purposes, collisions are 'random' events).

You seem to be very soundly grounded to the "Laws" of ToE. Not wavering in your arguments as to what fits the theory or bringing in other religious beliefs that cause a circular, blending or self opinionated discussion. I respect that.

I would like to ask you more questions in the future.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You seem to be very soundly grounded to the "Laws" of ToE. Not wavering in your arguments as to what fits the theory or bringing in other religious beliefs that cause a circular, blending or self opinionated discussion. I respect that.

The feeling's mutual; our calm exchange of ideas makes a refreshing change to the usual hollering in CF .

I would like to ask you more questions in the future.

Be my guest. You might also be interested in my 'Ask a Physicist Anything' thread (4,500 posts and counting!).

 

[1611AV]

The feeling's mutual; our calm exchange of ideas makes a refreshing change to the usual hollering in CF .


Be my guest. You might also be interested in my 'Ask a Physicist Anything' thread (4,500 posts and counting!).

I will check it out. I have also created a new thread to direct those who want to discuss "the blend of God and Evolution" So I can keep focused on ToE without distraction.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7536879/

 

[Nathan Poe]

So, then we are here by chance. Because of what particular things died off. It gave opportunity for other life to emerge and continue to evolve. If say the dinosaurs survived and the mammals went extinct, we would have a much different world today, one that probably would not include humans. Is that a fair statement in regards to ToE.?

More like a fair statement in regards to cause and effect. "If the past had happened differently, the present wouldn't be what it is now."

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I will check it out. I have also created a new thread to direct those who want to discuss "the blend of God and Evolution" So I can keep focused on ToE without distraction.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7536879/

You'll probably won't get a lot of Christians replying in P&LS, you might have better luck over at one of the Christians-Only sides of CF. Still, best of luck

 

[1611AV]

You'll probably won't get a lot of Christians replying in P&LS, you might have better luck over at one of the Christians-Only sides of CF. Still, best of luck

Thats OK, again the main reason I did it was to divert the "Christian/Evolutionist" from quoting and diluting my posts here.

According to ToE. a Human is at the pinnacle of the process thus far. As a human we are exposed to all of the elements and up until a few hundred thousand years ago, probably all had to weather the elements and hunt for food, probably migrate somewhat.

Why does modern man seem to be effected by so much disease, and animals seem to be so much more immune to them. I would think we would have, by now, evolved better immune systems. For instance I have 4 children, when one gets sick we all do most of the time, yet my dog never gets what we have. What is your opinion on this?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Thats OK, again the main reason I did it was to divert the "Christian/Evolutionist" from quoting and diluting my posts here.

According to ToE. a Human is at the pinnacle of the process thus far. As a human we are exposed to all of the elements and up until a few hundred thousand years ago, probably all had to weather the elements and hunt for food, probably migrate somewhat.

Why does modern man seem to be effected by so much disease, and animals seem to be so much more immune to them. I would think we would have, by now, evolved better immune systems. For instance I have 4 children, when one gets sick we all do most of the time, yet my dog never gets what we have. What is your opinion on this?

Wrong.

Bacteria are the pinnacle of evolution. They rule this world, consume its resources, and will be here much longer than we will be. Cognition is merely one replicative strategy, and it isn't necessarily the best. Just because we can think and build technology doesn't make us automatically better than the rest of the life on this planet. This is a misconception of evolution - that there is a step ladder from "primitive" to "complex" that evolution tries to climb and we are somehow on the top. It's not like that at all. We are not the pinnacle of evolution, and in fact, our bodies are 90% bacteria if you count the cells.

And as far as human disease goes, I think we may have some bias. We notice human disease far more than animal disease. There are actually tons of animal diseases and viruses and bacteria that infect animals more preferentially than us. Ask a veterinarian if taking care of animals is easy, and they will say no.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Thats OK, again the main reason I did it was to divert the "Christian/Evolutionist" from quoting and diluting my posts here.

According to ToE. a Human is at the pinnacle of the process thus far.

Not really -- there is no "pinnacle of the process." We've evolved, adapted, and survived to our environment just like every other creature that hasn't gone extinct yet. The one difference is how we've managed to do it.

As a human we are exposed to all of the elements and up until a few hundred thousand years ago, probably all had to weather the elements and hunt for food, probably migrate somewhat.

And you'll note that we're still (at least physically) helpless and ill-suited to most of those environments -- but one evolutionary advantage -- intellect and the capacity for abstract thought -- has allowed us to manipulate our environments, rather then have them manipulate us. For example, we don't have any fur to protect us from the cold, so we kill other animals and wear theirs. We don't have any natural weapons (claws, fangs, poison stingers), so we make artificial ones.

It's worked for us, and worked well -- but there are still plenty of creatures out there better suited to their environment than we would be.

Drop a naked man (just the way God and/or nature designed him) in a pit with a grizzly bear(for example; you can substitute quite a few animals for this scenario), and in about five minutes you'll see just who the "pinnacle" is -- then get the mop.

Why does modern man seem to be effected by do much disease, and animals seem to be so much more immune to them. I would think we would have, by now, evolved better immune systems. For instance I have 4 children, when one gets sick we all do most of the time, yet my dog never gets what we have. What is your opinion on this?

There are quite a few possibilities -- for starters, remember that the diseases are evolving too. a virus is a parasitic organism, and needs a host -- and humans are far more plentiful than dogs. More hosts = more germs.

Also, animals are immune to some human diseases, but they have a few of their own -- but since domesticated animals rarely congregate in groups as big as humans do, the diseases don't get a chance to spread -- also because humans actively work to put a stop to them as well (sometimes with extreme prejudice). For instance, if one piglet on a farm shows signs of Hog Cholera, a farmer is likely to slaughter the whole herd.

There are other reasons; I've starting to talk out of my field here, but you get the idea.

 

[Phred]

How does evolution deal with the mass extinctions that have been explained by many scientists? Ice ages, Mass flooding and that sort. It seems that they would really set things back if you look at a single cell evolving all the way to a complex creature as a Human. I mean you can only go back so far until you have a earth that was mostly volcanic. There does not seem to be enough time for it to happen.

How does ToE explain this?

Those are all complex questions. Let's take them one at a time.

How does evolution deal with the mass extinctions that have been explained by many scientists?

Extinctions can be caused by many different things. For example the environment can change rendering a creature unfit to continue thriving. Ice ages are perfect examples of this. We've seen the entire globe covered with ice and most of the life upon it went extinct. When the ice eventually melted life started to evolve once again to fill all the ecological niches that were once again open. There really is no explanation required. It's sort of a "stuff happens" kind of thing that life adapts to or dies. When an asteroid impacts the earth as has happened occasionally there is no time to adapt. Conditions change instantly and individuals, who have no ability to adapt, die.

It seems that they would really set things back if you look at a single cell evolving all the way to a complex creature as a Human.

Please try to remember. There is no goal. Evolution has no end point. It's not like you're playing a game and had to go back three spaces from where you wanted to be. These "set backs" are indeed set backs for the organisms that died. But for those that lived it was like a job fair. Look at all the openings!

I mean you can only go back so far until you have a earth that was mostly volcanic. There does not seem to be enough time for it to happen.

That's one way to falsify the ToE. If there was not enough time. We can see through the fossil record that there was. About three billion years of starts and stops, weird side roads and all sorts of dead ends. And most of that three billion years of life was taken up with single-celled organisms squirming around.

 

[pgp_protector]

You want tough try the water bears

In the first test of its kind, researchers exposed the hardy segmented creatures, called water bears, to the open and harsh vacuum of space, with all its deadly radiation, on a spacecraft in low-Earth orbit. Many of them survived.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Thats OK, again the main reason I did it was to divert the "Christian/Evolutionist" from quoting and diluting my posts here.

According to ToE. a Human is at the pinnacle of the process thus far. As a human we are exposed to all of the elements and up until a few hundred thousand years ago, probably all had to weather the elements and hunt for food, probably migrate somewhat.

Yep. It's worth pointing out that all animals are the pinnacle of the process thus far - a single bacterium is as evolved as we are. If we're going on biological complexity (e.g., a snail's simple eye is 'less evolved' than a hawk's complex eye), I personally consider squid to be the most complex and advanced group of species on the planet. Their bodies are giant pixel screens, they have multiple prehensile tenticals, their eyes do everything our eyes can do as well as seeing polarisation.

Why does modern man seem to be effected by so much disease, and animals seem to be so much more immune to them. I would think we would have, by now, evolved better immune systems. For instance I have 4 children, when one gets sick we all do most of the time, yet my dog never gets what we have. What is your opinion on this?

A disease that can affect one human will usually be able to affect all humans - we are, by and large, the same. The camoflague that lets human viruses and bacteria hide in humans only works because it makes them resemble human proteins - in a dog, they suddenly stand out. It's like hiding in a desert while dressed as a tree.

That said, viruses and bacteria can evolve to jump species. This is where things like bird and (possibly) swine flu come from - their avian/porcine diseases that managed to jump into humans.

So diseases are largely species specific. Not always, especially when it's not a biological pathogen, but largely.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

In addition to what Wiccan said, viruses can more easily "jump" to other species that are similar. For example, SIV is a virus that infects chimpanzees. A specific strain of it mutated and became more likely to able to infect humans, and we call that virus HIV. We didn't see SIV jump to dogs or reptiles because the tropism of the virus (what kinds of cells the viruses can enter) is for chimpanzee cells, and dog and reptile cells are just too different. But humans cells are, by comparison, much more like chimpanzee cells, so that strain of the virus was able to alter itself enough to become tropic for human cells.

Without evolution, it would make no sense why SIV jumped to humans to cause HIV. With creationism, you have to wonder why these viruses even exist in the first place. Why were they even created?

 

[Belk]

I would not say necessary since God is all powerful. Lets say the evidence points to this being the way God did it.



You lost me at the end there. That they believe God could just make a man has no bearing on their belief in evolution. They believe God used evolution to create man because they believe in God and because of the overwhelming evidence for evolution.




Don't even have clue one where you came up with this since it does not seem to be supported or even referenced by the proceeding sentences but you are once again equating bible belief with rejection of evolution.

So.... No response?

 

[1611AV]

Wrong.

Bacteria are the pinnacle of evolution. They rule this world, consume its resources, and will be here much longer than we will be. Cognition is merely one replicative strategy, and it isn't necessarily the best. Just because we can think and build technology doesn't make us automatically better than the rest of the life on this planet. This is a misconception of evolution - that there is a step ladder from "primitive" to "complex" that evolution tries to climb and we are somehow on the top. It's not like that at all. We are not the pinnacle of evolution, and in fact, our bodies are 90% bacteria if you count the cells.

And as far as human disease goes, I think we may have some bias. We notice human disease far more than animal disease. There are actually tons of animal diseases and viruses and bacteria that infect animals more preferentially than us. Ask a veterinarian if taking care of animals is easy, and they will say no.

Well that may be true about bacteria. I don't claim to be a expert on evolution nor am I trying to prove it wrong. I am asking questions to the best of my knowledge in the field of ToE. So you dont have to come back with a giant "WRONG" at the beginning of your post.

Are you saying that a Bacteria is a more evolved mammal as a Human? Because that is not what I was trying to say. Sorry.

My point and question is, as Humans why did we seem to devolve when it comes to the immune system compared to other mammals. A Chimp or Ape for instance is so much more resistant to germs than a Human. ( A much better immune system) Why?