• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Question for evolutionist

badtim

Vatican Warlock Assassin
Dec 3, 2010
300
11
✟23,009.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Engaged
well, several of the nicene and antinicene fathers were found quoting byzantine text and even the johannian comma so If it's good for them it's good for us, right?

I don't worship the KJV but I admire it's accuracy and it's literalness. If you look at any greek interlinear you will see it's much more accurate than say the NIV or other thought for thought translation.

If you look at the KJV in terms of the Textus Receptus, yes, it can be quite a good translation, and actually i quite like the language in it -- the high drama can be great, but i do think our appreciation of it is partly colored by our perceptions of Shakespeare, and that it is overly dramatic in many places. But that's beside the point. It was a beautiful, awesome work of scholarship and devotion. In 1611.

There's been 400 years since Tyndale & Co produced that work, and there's been 400 years of bible scholarship in that time. The Receptus is riddled with accumulated errors, a fact that has been cataloged many, many times since right after the KJV was first published. The KJV was produced at a time where there were very few available hebrew or greek manuscripts, a situation which has changed in the last 400 years.

It's so bad in places that there are whole verses missing, when compared to older and more authoritative sources, and the KJV isn't even published with the preface or the marginal notes anymore, which specifically warns:

KING JAMES VERSION ORIGINAL PREFACE said:
There be many words in the Scriptures, which be never found there but once, (having neither brother nor neighbour, as the Hebrewes speake) so that we cannot be holpen by conference of places. Againe, there be many rare names of certaine birds, beastes and precious stones, &c. concerning which the Hebrewes themselves are so divided among themselves for judgement, that they may seeme to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, the because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Jerome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margine do well to admonish the Reader to seeke further, and not to conclude or dogmatize upon this or that peremptorily?

Tyndale specifically warned against treating the work as it is currently treated in some Protestant traditions. Here's a good paper on it, from a baptist theological seminary (not us godless atheists):

http://www.dbts.edu/journals/1996_2/preface.pdf
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It's so bad in places that there are whole verses missing,

I understand the KJV like most translations has errors but I was unfamiliar with the verses missing. I know of verses missing in the newer translations however. 1 John 5:7-9 is missing in the new translations and Revelation 5:9-10 changes "US" to “people” or “them” in the newer bibles.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

badtim

Vatican Warlock Assassin
Dec 3, 2010
300
11
✟23,009.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Engaged
you referring to the Comma (the John 5:7-9 reference)? it's not there in NSRV or NIV (or others) since it also isn't there in any of the older greek manuscripts, nor does it appear in quotations of that verse from any early church fathers. it's commonly considered an elaboration by later christian scribes, working in Latin.

here's an interesting article that touches on these issues: Part I: From Wycliffe to King James (The Period of Challenge) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

As to what was is missing, the Apocrypha to begin with. And that's a recent subtraction from the KJV, dating to the early 1820s.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
you referring to the Comma (the John 5:7-9 reference)? it's not there in NSRV or NIV (or others) since it also isn't there in any of the older greek manuscripts, nor does it appear in quotations of that verse from any early church fathers. it's commonly considered an elaboration by later christian scribes, working in Latin.

here's an interesting article that touches on these issues: Part I: From Wycliffe to King James (The Period of Challenge) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

As to what was is missing, the Apocrypha to begin with. And that's a recent subtraction from the KJV, dating to the early 1820s.

yes that comma should be there, maynard did some work on this.

A Case For the Authenticity of 1st John 5:7-8
 
Upvote 0

badtim

Vatican Warlock Assassin
Dec 3, 2010
300
11
✟23,009.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Engaged
yes that comma should be there, maynard did some work on this.

A Case For the Authenticity of 1st John 5:7-8

I'll read through that later, no time to check it out now, though based on the skim i just did a lot of his ideas look pretty weak, especially statements like

God, in His sovereignty, saw to it that the text was preserved in the Bible's of the Reformation and the best-selling book of all time—The Authorized King James Version. As to why the passage fell out of so many Greek mss, only the Almighty knows.

Again, the broad consensus among bible scholars is that it does not reflect accurate transmission of early texts. I must admit not being able to go into depth on this subject, as biblical variance is only an interesting topic for me, not a main area of interest. Saying that any version of the Bible is the "correct" version is rather silly -- there are literally thousands of variants, from all times, and there is no special protection that the Bible has over any other work of literature.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
there is no special protection that the Bible has over any other work of literature.

I believe that God preserves a "Holy" Bible and there are many un holy bibles.. I would think that the KJV would be the "Holy" Bible while versions like the NIV and NLT are unholy. When I say unholy I mean not sinful necessarily just not the "Holy" Bible. I think if we didn't have a Holy Bible then God's word would have passed away. And we have assurance that "none of these prophecies will pass away."

I like these arguments regarding the flow of the passage being interrupted if the comma is omitted.

"if the Comma is omitted, verse 6 and verse 8 are thrown together, "which gives a very bald, awkward, and meaningless repetition of the Spirit's witness twice in immediate succession."

[20]Robert Dabney, The Doctrinal Various Readings of the New Testament Greek(Edinburgh: Banner of Trust, 1967),306.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As opposed to mentioning the Spirit's witness three times?

I think the repetition involved is the "water and blood" immediately after each other without verse seven sounds funny.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He repeats them twice in verse 6 anyway, it is simply a question of how short a gap before the next time he repeats it. This isn't a real argument though, all it means is that it sounds better to someone who accustomed to the AV.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
He repeats them twice in verse 6 anyway, it is simply a question of how short a gap before the next time he repeats it. This isn't a real argument though, all it means is that it sounds better to someone who accustomed to the AV.

well here is the whole section I quoted from maybe it makes more sense...

Finally, I John 5:7-8 fits the immediate context; in fact, it is an indispensable component of the surrounding verses. Metzger, in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, argues that "as regards intrinsic probability, the passage [The Johannine Comma] makes an awkward break in the sense."[19]Upon close examination of the immediate context, however, one finds that this assertion is far from true. For example, if the Comma is omitted, verse 6 and verse 8 are thrown together, "which gives a very bald, awkward, and meaningless repetition of the Spirit's witness twice in immediate succession."[20]Furthermore, the omission causes the concluding phrase of verse 8 (and these three agree in one) to contain an unintelligible reference.[21]What is "that one" (to en) to which "these three" are said to agree? In other words, "that one" in verse 8 which designates One to whom the reader has already been introduced does not have antecedent presence in the passage. "Let verse 7 stand, and all is clear, and the three earthly witnesses testify to that aforementioned unity which the Father, Word, and Spirit constitute."[22]The passage makes absolutely no sense if the Comma is omitted. The phrase "in earth" in verse 8 as well as the entire ninth verse would also have to be knocked out to regain the sense because both infer that the "witness of God," as promulgated in the Comma, has already been introduced.

A Case For the Authenticity of 1st John 5:7-8
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
well here is the whole section I quoted from maybe it makes more sense...

Finally, I John 5:7-8 fits the immediate context; in fact, it is an indispensable component of the surrounding verses. Metzger, in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, argues that "as regards intrinsic probability, the passage [The Johannine Comma] makes an awkward break in the sense."[19]Upon close examination of the immediate context, however, one finds that this assertion is far from true. For example, if the Comma is omitted, verse 6 and verse 8 are thrown together, "which gives a very bald, awkward, and meaningless repetition of the Spirit's witness twice in immediate succession."[20]Furthermore, the omission causes the concluding phrase of verse 8 (and these three agree in one) to contain an unintelligible reference.[21]What is "that one" (to en) to which "these three" are said to agree? In other words, "that one" in verse 8 which designates One to whom the reader has already been introduced does not have antecedent presence in the passage. "Let verse 7 stand, and all is clear, and the three earthly witnesses testify to that aforementioned unity which the Father, Word, and Spirit constitute."[22]The passage makes absolutely no sense if the Comma is omitted.
He claims Metzger's point that the comma produces an awkward break in sense 'is far from true'. Yet he does nothing to address the point. instead he goes on about what 'that one' inverse 8 refers to, well το is the definite article which does not have to refer back to anything and the simplest translation of the passage is that the three witnesses are one, they are united in their testimony. If you want to insist το εν is 'that one' and refer back to something, the comma throws up really big problem.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are in that one


According to this interpretation the Spirit the water and the blood are part of the Trinity
The phrase "in earth" in verse 8 as well as the entire ninth verse would also have to be knocked out to regain the sense because both infer that the "witness of God," as promulgated in the Comma, has already been introduced.

A Case For the Authenticity of 1st John 5:7-8
The phrase 'in earth' doesn't have to be knocked out because it is part of the comma. Verse 9 is a theme that comes up twice in the gospel John 5:31-36 and 8:17&18 and doesn't need the comma to make sense.
 
Upvote 0

Targ

Regular Member
Sep 4, 2010
653
19
NSW, Australia
✟23,418.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
There's lots of evidence against the verse, but the clincher for me is that the passage was never once quoted at the council of Nicea. If it was a legitimate verse, it'd have been the first verse bar none that the Athanasians would have used to defend the deity of Christ. Yet it never was - it never rated a mention.

Edit: not that this is on-topic or anything.
 
Upvote 0

badtim

Vatican Warlock Assassin
Dec 3, 2010
300
11
✟23,009.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Engaged
I believe that God preserves a "Holy" Bible and there are many un holy bibles.. I would think that the KJV would be the "Holy" Bible while versions like the NIV and NLT are unholy. When I say unholy I mean not sinful necessarily just not the "Holy" Bible. I think if we didn't have a Holy Bible then God's word would have passed away. And we have assurance that "none of these prophecies will pass away."

um, you're making a claim for the veracity of one variant of a text based on words that occur in ALL texts? that makes very little sense.

the bald fact is that all translations, of everything -- not just the bible -- have errors, mistranslations, ambiguities, insertions, and deletions, to one degree or another. the KJV is not immune to this; nothing is. it's patently false to hold the position that the KJV-Only crowd does, that this is some final, perfect rendition of the original autographs (which don't exist so we can't compare). Tyndale et al were criticized in the exact same terms that some current people criticize newer translations such as the NIV, and they made copious notations and scholarly recommendations regarding alternate translations, their own lack of knowledge, and warned, specifically, that the kind of dogmatic book workship that goes on today should be avoided.

and really, if you somehow do believe that the original word of god was inviolable and protected, your bibles should be, in various points, in aramaic, koine greek, and perhaps other tongues. i believe the admonishment was to change not one single letter right? well, last i checked, English doesn't contain a single yod or gimel.

One of the things that has become evident from archaeological digs is that the hebrew OT was fluid until codified in the 1st century AD. Qumran itself has proven this beyond a doubt -- while there is much consistency between those records, and later versions, as one would expect considering the concern with accuracy in transcription, there is much that is not so consistent with other texts.

the very variety between all different texts, different bibles with different books, at different times, in different places, is proof positive that there is no such thing as biblical inerrancy or consistency. and anyone who responds, "Well the KJV is the only true bible" is ignorant of the history concerning it (such as the Wicked Bible) and is only fooling themselves.

errors happen. differences of opinion occur. if you are going to believe, believe the message, and don't focus on the method of transmission, otherwise the message gets lost.

focusing on single bible verses, or even groups of verses, as justification for belief structures, dogma, etc. -- this is a trap. it's putting the cart before the horse, in an incredibly arrogant and self-defeating way, as when this is done, it becomes an exclusive focus on the words of the text, rather than it's meaning, and leads to serious cognitive issues and logical impossibilities, such as the extreme denial of reality seen so often in american fundamentalist congregations.

case in point: snake handlers. based on just a few words, in a single verse, these guys have decided that playing with poisonous snakes is something they should be doing, and that god will protect them. it doesn't work that way, people get bitten and die, and it's not because they had too little faith -- evidently they were gullible / faithful enough to trust some guy who said "here play with this cottonmouth" - it's because they have venom in their veins. the other comedic thing is that many of these types of preachers have disclaimer notices trying to say that they aren't responsible if somebody dies. talk about faith.

yes, it's an extreme example, but that's why it's a good example :)
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
case in point: snake handlers. based on just a few words, in a single verse, these guys have decided that playing with poisonous snakes is something they should be doing, and that god will protect them. it doesn't work that way, people get bitten and die, and it's not because they had too little faith -- evidently they were gullible / faithful enough to trust some guy who said "here play with this cottonmouth" - it's because they have venom in their veins. the other comedic thing is that many of these types of preachers have disclaimer notices trying to say that they aren't responsible if somebody dies. talk about faith.

yes, it's an extreme example, but that's why it's a good example :)

I believe one word will not fail, that is why we still have the KJV. Doesn't mean the KJV is perfect but the text from which it came was.
 
Upvote 0