Question....for Adventists

[alienDNA]

CULT!!!

 

[christianmomof3]

So you can see with these two passages that "spirit" can have two different meanings, either our actual breath, or the seat of our emotions. But it never refers to some separate entity that can live outside of the body.

I do not think that our human spirit is a separate entity that lives outside our body. I think it is the deepest part of our being, and the part where we contact God and contain God's life. We see that in John 4:24 and Romans 1:9.

When the Bible talks about our body, soul, spirit, mind, etc., it is not talking about separate, independent parts but rather our whole beings.

But then why in Hebrews 4:12 does it say "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart."? Why would the Bible speak of dividing soul and spirit if they are not two different things?
Our soul is our self and we are told to deny our self to follow the Lord. (Matthew 16:24,25 and Luke 9:24, 25).
Our heart is not separate from our soul and spirit, but is composed of our soul plus the conscience, which is part of the spirit.
So, through the heart, the soul and spirit are joined. They are very close just as joints and marrow are very close to one another, but they are still separate parts.

The Holy Spirit living in us gives us assurance of our salvation, but we have yet to receive the fulfillment of the promise of immortality; we have yet to be granted access to the tree of life. For now, we remain mortal, subject to death--temporarily--but when Jesus comes, our whole beings, including our bodies, will be made incorruptible.

I understand that death is temprorary, but I guess I thought that when the Lord returns we would get new glorified bodies since the one we have now rots in the grave.

Correct, but the spirit that you are referring to here is the Holy Spirit (God), not the seat of our emotions.

What I was referring to is that the Holy Spirit of God lives within our human spirit when we are regenerated. His Life in His Holy Spirit comes into our human spirit and dwells there - He wants to spread from our spirit to our soul so that He can make His home in our heart. Before we are born again, God is outside of us separate from us. He does not live within us. When we are born again, His life is put inside of us inside our human spirit, the deepest part of our being and He is always there and we can contact Him there.

I would also suggest that you go to the following site and check out the lesson called "The Wich of Endor." It is very readable, and you can print out the written lesson for free, or you can watch a video or listen to the audio.

I took a look at that and I think I agree with most of it, but I still think body, soul and spirit are 3 different things. I don't think dead people go to heaven and play harps and that we can talk to dead people. I agree that people who are psychics and think they are talking to dead people are talking to deamons. I also agree that Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise, not heaven. I am not sure exactly what happens when we die, but I imagine I will find out one day. I do not believe our ultimate goal is heaven. I believe that our ultimate goal is to be a part of the New Jerusalem which will be us and God dwelling together for eternity.

 

[woobadooba]

I do not think that our human spirit is a separate entity that lives outside our body. I think it is the deepest part of our being, and the part where we contact God and contain God's life. We see that in John 4:24 and Romans 1:9.

I agree. But I refer to this as the seat of our emotions, or will.

However, we need to be careful to discern the usage of the term spirit in the Bible. For, sometimes it refers to the seat of our emotions, or will, but at other times it refers to the breath which animates our being, or that element which gives us life.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who fail to make this distinction, and assume the spirit to be a living entity that can survive outside of the body. Thus they read something into the Bible that really isn't there.

Of course, you don't believe this, and that is good. This tells me that you are obviously open minded enough to see the truth. Hence, you have a love for the truth.

But then why in Hebrews 4:12 does it say "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart."?

Good question!

Paul is using hyperbole here to emphasize the point that nothing can be hidden from God, and that His word is powerful enough to penetrate the heart, so much so that He can read it as an opened book.

Nevertheless, in spite of the fact that Paul is using hyperbole here, we can still conclude that when he speaks of the spirit and soul in this context, he is referring to both the body, and the seat of our emotions, or will.

In other words, some people seem to think that God can't see beyond the surface of the physical aspects/works of their being. These are the people that Jesus referred to when He said:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt. 7:21-23

You see, such people make a public display of their so-called faith, but deep down inside, at the seat of their emotions, they aren't allowing God to take the throne of their hearts.

In other words, they are hypocrites who think that they can hide from God; but one day they will discover that God knew everything about them.

What I was referring to is that the Holy Spirit of God lives within our human spirit when we are regenerated. His Life in His Holy Spirit comes into our human spirit and dwells there - He wants to spread from our spirit to our soul so that He can make His home in our heart.

If you are going to speak of the spirit in this context, then yes, it is referring to the heart/seat of the emotions, or will. But again, the soul, according to the Bible is just quite simply the body. In other words, if you want to see a soul, look in the mirror.

I took a look at that and I think I agree with most of it, but I still think body, soul and spirit are 3 different things.

You are partly correct.

The spirit and soul are different things. But the body and soul are not. They are one and the same. In other words, body = soul

But soul + spirit (breath of life in this context) = "living soul", or animated body.

This is why I drew your attention to Gen. 2:7, which makes this idea very clear.

I don't think dead people go to heaven and play harps and that we can talk to dead people. I agree that people who are psychics and think they are talking to dead people are talking to deamons. I also agree that Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise, not heaven. I am not sure exactly what happens when we die, but I imagine I will find out one day. I do not believe our ultimate goal is heaven. I believe that our ultimate goal is to be a part of the New Jerusalem which will be us and God dwelling together for eternity.

Amen! Very good!

I would just add that our ultimate goal ought to be to enjoy the presence of God; and this can only be accomplished when our lives are alligned with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[christianmomof3]

I would just add that our ultimate goal ought to be to enjoy the presence of God; and this can only be accomplished when our lives are alligned with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and I am glad that we can enjoy the presence of God right now! He is so enjoyable! We don't have to wait until we die to enjoy the presence of God. He is dwelling within us in our human spirit and we can contact Him anytime we wish to and enjoy His life.
It is not a matter of just aligning our lives with the teachings of Christ. That is an outward thing just like the Jewish religion is outward. Living Christ is an intrinsic thing.
We can and should enjoy and experience Christ and deny our self, our soul life, the pleasures of the world, and enjoy the much more pleasurable Christ Himself as our life, so that our living can be one of Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me...
So the question is not to ask "what would Jesus do?" and try to figure out how Jesus might have behaved if He were in a situation and then try to act like that. That is an outward thing. Instead, we can speak to the Lord Himself and say something like "Lord, I am in this situation, but I don't want to act on my own here. Lord, I take you as my life so that You may be the One speaking and acting in this situation. Lord, I can't do this but You can. Lord, thank you that you live in me. Lord, be my wisdom, guidance and patience in this situation. Lord, I don't want to do anything in this situation unless it is your will." Then, you follow the Lord's leading in your spirit as you act within that situation.

I am glad that we can enjoy the Lord not only in the future in the New Jerusalem, but we can enjoy Him and His life now as well!

 

[woobadooba]

Yes, and I am glad that we can enjoy the presence of God right now! He is so enjoyable! We don't have to wait until we die to enjoy the presence of God. He is dwelling within us in our human spirit and we can contact Him anytime we wish to and enjoy His life.
It is not a matter of just aligning our lives with the teachings of Christ. That is an outward thing just like the Jewish religion is outward. Living Christ is an intrinsic thing.
We can and should enjoy and experience Christ and deny our self, our soul life, the pleasures of the world, and enjoy the much more pleasurable Christ Himself as our life, so that our living can be one of Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me...
So the question is not to ask "what would Jesus do?" and try to figure out how Jesus might have behaved if He were in a situation and then try to act like that. That is an outward thing. Instead, we can speak to the Lord Himself and say something like "Lord, I am in this situation, but I don't want to act on my own here. Lord, I take you as my life so that You may be the One speaking and acting in this situation. Lord, I can't do this but You can. Lord, thank you that you live in me. Lord, be my wisdom, guidance and patience in this situation. Lord, I don't want to do anything in this situation unless it is your will." Then, you follow the Lord's leading in your spirit as you act within that situation.

I am glad that we can enjoy the Lord not only in the future in the New Jerusalem, but we can enjoy Him and His life now as well!

Well, actually what I meant by align our lives to the teachings of Jesus Christ is what you have described here.

It appears that we pretty much agree on the doctrine of the state of the dead. Perhaps now we can move on to the law.

What is it about the law of God that you want to know?

Out of curiosity, what denomination are you affiliated with?

 

[christianmomof3]

What is it about the law of God that you want to know?

On the first post it mentioned the Law of God being eternal. I am not sure what that refers to - is it a law about the eternal existence of God or about God's law existing eternally?

Out of curiosity, what denomination are you affiliated with?

I meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery.

 

[woobadooba]

On the first post it mentioned the Law of God being eternal. I am not sure what that refers to - is it a law about the eternal existence of God or about God's law existing eternally?

I would like to show you something that I find to be very interesting!

Look at this comparison of God and the Law.

God Is:

Good, Lk. 18:19

Holy, Isa. 5:16

Just, Deut. 32:4

Perfect, Matt. 5:48

Love, 1Jn.4:8

Righteous, Ex. 9:27

Truth, Deut. 32:4

Pure, 1Jn. 3:3

Spiritual, Jn. 4:24

Unchangeable, Mal. 3:6

Eternal, Gen. 21:33


The Law Is:

Good, Rom. 7:12

Holy, Rom. 7:12

Just, Rom. 7:12

Perfect, Ps. 19:7

Love, Rom. 13:10

Righteous, Ps. 19:9

Truth, Ps. 119:142, 151

Pure, Ps. 19:8

Spiritual, Rom. 7:14

Unchangeable, Matt. 5:18

Eternal, Ps. 11:7,8


But wasn't the law done away with? If so, then that would mean all of these characteristics would have been done away with.

So what law is this comparison referring to?

Here's the distinction:

John said, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1Jn. 3:4

But Paul said, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." Gal. 3:19

Did you catch that?

One law was transgressed, and because this law was transgressed, another law was added.

So then, the law that was transgressed is obviously the moral law, which is summed up in the ten commandments.

But the law that was added because this law was transgressed was the ceremonial law, which had to do with the sacrifice of bulls and goats--"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Rom. 9:22

One law (the moral law) is eternal, and is therefore still binding--Rom. 3:31. The other law (ceremonial) was temporary, and was done away with at the cross when Jesus gave His life for us all-- "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb. 10:10

So the comparison that I gave you above is referring to what the moral law is, as compared to what God is intrinsically.

What do you think about this?

 

[Sophia7]

I do not think that our human spirit is a separate entity that lives outside our body. I think it is the deepest part of our being, and the part where we contact God and contain God's life. We see that in John 4:24 and Romans 1:9.

But then why in Hebrews 4:12 does it say "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart."? Why would the Bible speak of dividing soul and spirit if they are not two different things?
Our soul is our self and we are told to deny our self to follow the Lord. (Matthew 16:24,25 and Luke 9:24, 25).
Our heart is not separate from our soul and spirit, but is composed of our soul plus the conscience, which is part of the spirit.
So, through the heart, the soul and spirit are joined. They are very close just as joints and marrow are very close to one another, but they are still separate parts.

I understand that death is temprorary, but I guess I thought that when the Lord returns we would get new glorified bodies since the one we have now rots in the grave.

What I was referring to is that the Holy Spirit of God lives within our human spirit when we are regenerated. His Life in His Holy Spirit comes into our human spirit and dwells there - He wants to spread from our spirit to our soul so that He can make His home in our heart. Before we are born again, God is outside of us separate from us. He does not live within us. When we are born again, His life is put inside of us inside our human spirit, the deepest part of our being and He is always there and we can contact Him there.

I took a look at that and I think I agree with most of it, but I still think body, soul and spirit are 3 different things. I don't think dead people go to heaven and play harps and that we can talk to dead people. I agree that people who are psychics and think they are talking to dead people are talking to deamons. I also agree that Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise, not heaven. I am not sure exactly what happens when we die, but I imagine I will find out one day. I do not believe our ultimate goal is heaven. I believe that our ultimate goal is to be a part of the New Jerusalem which will be us and God dwelling together for eternity.

Yes, I agree that the Bible uses the terms body, soul, spirit, mind, heart, etc., to refer to different aspects of us, such as our intellect, our emotions, our spiritual inclinations, and our physical bodies. My point was that these parts all work together, and the spiritual parts are not immortal, living on after death, while the physical parts perish. Also, I agree that our bodies will be glorified when we are resurrected. My question is why would there be any need for a resurrection at all if people's souls went to heaven immediately? God could then simply make new bodies for us, and there would be no need to get our old bodies out of the grave. I believe that our bodies, along with our thoughts/feelings/everything that makes us who we are will be resurrected and recreated. We will be transformed into perfect, immortal, sinless creatures, restored in the image of God at that time.

You're right; ultimately, we will find out when we die. If what Adventists say is true, our next conscious moment after death will be seeing Jesus when He resurrects us. If what others say is true, our next moment will be seeing Jesus as spirits in heaven. Either way, what is most important is trusting in Christ for our salvation. My concern is that in the meantime, many people could be deceived if, for example, they are contacted by spiritual beings with the appearance of their dead relatives (whom I believe are really demons) or if they think that they are able to pray to their dead loved ones in heaven.

 

[christianmomof3]

Thank you all for the time you are taking to answer my questions so well and so kindly. Wooba, I am confused by your answer a little bit again - I am sorry. I understand there are two types of law - I guess I always thought of it as the 10 commandments and the commandments in ordinances. Or, as you put it the moral law and ceremonial law - I think. The law shows us the Lord's character and it also shows us what sin is.
However, that still hasn't showed me what was refered to as eternal.
Sophia, I think I probably agree with most of your points. I am not really certain that anyone knows for sure what happens after we die, but I have not seen anywhere in the Bible where it says we go to heaven, only Paradise as in the case of Lazarus, and I don't think dead people talk to us or should be prayed to.

 

[woobadooba]

Thank you all for the time you are taking to answer my questions so well and so kindly. Wooba, I am confused by your answer a little bit again - I am sorry. I understand there are two types of law - I guess I always thought of it as the 10 commandments and the commandments in ordinances. Or, as you put it the moral law and ceremonial law - I think. The law shows us the Lord's character and it also shows us what sin is.
However, that still hasn't showed me what was refered to as eternal.

Well, here is what the Bible says concerning the commandments of God,

"The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.

They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness." Ps. 111:7-8 (KJV)

In speaking of commandments, the context suggests that the psalmist is referring to none other but the 10 commandments, which are otherwise known as the moral law.

In this passage he makes it very clear that they stand fast forever. Thus they are eternal.

So it is the moral law that is eternal, because it is, as you say, that which shows us the Lord's character, thus being an emanation of the very essence of His being, which is also eternal.

In other words, the moral law must be eternal since it reflects the character of God who is eternal. For, if the moral law were to be abolished where would that leave God?

Hence, it is not possible to abolish the moral law because it reflects the eternal character of God.

Does this make sense?

 

[alienDNA]

On the first post it mentioned the Law of God being eternal. I am not sure what that refers to - is it a law about the eternal existence of God or about God's law existing eternally?


I meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery.

Lord Recovery? Could you elaborate on what that is? I would like to know.

 

[christianmomof3]

So it is the moral law that is eternal, because it is, as you say, that which shows us the Lord's character, thus being an emanation of the very essence of His being, which is also eternal.

In other words, the moral law must be eternal since it reflects the character of God who is eternal. For, if the moral law were to be abolished where would that leave God?

Hence, it is not possible to abolish the moral law because it reflects the eternal character of God.

Does this make sense?

As far as the moral law is concerned, we now have the reality of the law living within us when we are born again with the Lord Jesus as our life. As far as the 10 commandments, they show us God's attributes, that He is jealous, holy, loving, righteous, truthful, and pure. As the word of God and the testimony and expression of God, the law is a type of Christ as God's Word, testimony and expression. The reality of keeping the law is to live God and express God. This is denying the self and being crucified to live Christ. The sabbath signifies that God has done everything and completed everything and that man must stop all of his work. For us to keep the sabbath is to stop our work and take God and all that He has accomplished for us as our enjoyment, rest and satisfaction.

 

[woobadooba]

As far as the moral law is concerned, we now have the reality of the law living within us when we are born again with the Lord Jesus as our life.

Correct, but the moral law itself hasn't changed. We are still required by God to keep the same ten commandments that were given on tablets of stone. This is why the Bible says, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12

As far as the 10 commandments, they show us God's attributes, that He is jealous, holy, loving, righteous, truthful, and pure.

It appears that you are separating the moral law from the 10 commandments. This dichotomy is not correct, because the ten commandments are the moral law.

As the word of God and the testimony and expression of God, the law is a type of Christ as God's Word, testimony and expression.

I would have to disagree with the semantics of this because the moral law isn't what saves us. Therefore, it can't be a type of Christ. Instead, it discloses our true condition, which is sinful.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom. 3:20

The reality of keeping the law is to live God and express God. This is denying the self and being crucified to live Christ.

This idea reminds me of this passage:

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." 1Jn. 3:24

The sabbath signifies that God has done everything and completed everything and that man must stop all of his work. For us to keep the sabbath is to stop our work and take God and all that He has accomplished for us as our enjoyment, rest and satisfaction.

Do you agree that the 7th day Sabbath is still binding to the Christian?

 

[christianmomof3]

Do you agree that the 7th day Sabbath is still binding to the Christian?

No, I am sorry, I assume ya'll do, thus the name Seventh Day Adventists.
By the way, what does adventist mean? I thought advent was a Catholic celebration of the days before Christmas.
I think that according to Hebrews chapter 4, Christ Himself is the Sabbath rest. And in Hebrews chapters 8-10 we see that the old covenant of following the law outwardly has been replaced by a new and better covenant in which He imparts His laws of His life into our hearts and mind, and no one will have to teach others how to know the Lord because we know Him intimately because He is living within us.
In Hebrews 10, it tells us the law has a shadow of the good things to come, but the animal sacrifices have been replaced by Christ as our ultimate sacrifice so that He will remember our sins and lawlessnesses no more. The book of Galatians also shows us that the spirit of sonship replaces the law and that the law has been completely fulfilled in Christ.
I don't think that we need to keep the law, because Christ has fulfilled the law and we now need to live by His life and He will automatically fulfill the law within us.
I don't know a lot about the SDA and I don't wish to offend you. I think that from what I have seen, your group seems to be very dear Christians who love the Lord and see a lot of truth.

 

[christianmomof3]

Do you agree that the 7th day Sabbath is still binding to the Christian?

I have looked at the other thread in here and though a bit more about the Sabbath and wanted to share a few more things about it. I was born and raised Jewish. I was in the Reform Jewish religion. In Judaism, there are Orthodox, who try to follow all the rules, Conservative, who are middle of the road and Reform, who are the most liberal, don't keep Kosher and pick and choose what rules they want to follow. (That is my view of it , probably not an official definition.) Anyway, I was in a Jewish Youth Group when I was in High School and we had a lock-in sleepover activity where we tried to do everything that was necessary to not work on the Sabbath. Some lightswitches were taped on and some were taped off because turning on or off the light is "work" and you're not supposed to work on the Sabbath. I remember being told that if we really wanted to get technical about things, we would have to tear off toilet paper and put it in piles ahead of time before the Sabbath, because tearing off toilet paper could be "work" and that to observe the Sabbath strictly you would not be able to cook, clean, open doors or anything. I am not sure what the intent of that exercise was meant to be for us, but it showed me how impossible it would be to try to keep the Sabbath completely.
On the other thread about Sabbath keeping I saw quite a few differences of opinion about how to keep the Sabbath and why to do it.
One example was given there that Jesus broke the Sabbath deliberately in more than one instance.
In addition,Jesus also said that while Moses said not to commit adultery, that to look at a woman with lust is committing adultery in the heart. Jesus showed, with the rich man who he told to give up everything and follow Him (and the rich man could not do it) and the story about the rich man and the camel going through the eye of the needle, that in and of ourselves, it is impossible to fulfill the law.
But, for the law to be written in our hearts, is that Jesus Christ Himself as the Law of Life is living within us and when we live by His life, we are living by the law of life.

 

[SnowBird77]

Still fighting over how to worship the Creator, are we?

 

[StormyOne]

Still fighting over how to worship the Creator, are we?

Never ending it seems... "my way is right!" "No my way is..."

 

[woobadooba]

I know this post is kind of long, but please bear with it.

No, I am sorry, I assume ya'll do, thus the name Seventh Day Adventists.
By the way, what does adventist mean? I thought advent was a Catholic celebration of the days before Christmas.

An Adventist, from my understanding, is just simply one who is looking forward to the second coming of Christ.

I think that according to Hebrews chapter 4, Christ Himself is the Sabbath rest.

First of all, Hebrews 4 speaks of the Sabbath both literally and eschatologically (end time).

In other words, it speaks of the 7th day Sabbath--Heb. 4:4; yet it also speaks of the promised rest--Heb. 4:1, which will manifest itself in the form of our complete salvation, at which point we will not merely be saved from the guilt of sin, but the power and nature of it as well. For, sin will be no more. Nah. 1:9

Secondly, you had said that Jesus is the Sabbath rest, and used this chapter (Heb. 4) as a reference point to support this idea. However, it is important to note that nowhere in this chapter, or the whole book of Hebrews for that matter, does it identify Jesus as the Sabbath rest. So we need to be careful that we don't read something into it that really isn't there.

Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful thought, but if the idea that we are conveying isn't sanctioned by the word of God, it very well could cause us to falter in our faith, and in some cases depending on the severity of the theological error, it could even beckon the eternal destruction of the soul.

And after closely examining the chapter, and the whole book of Hebrews for that matter, it is evident to me that the idea that Jesus is the Sabbath rest is not one that was inculcated by the writer of the book of Hebrews. For, if it were, surely he would have stated it thus.

Nevertheless, what he does say in the chapter, which is really the thrust of it, or underlying theme, is that if we want to be partakers of the promised rest, we must manifest our faith in God through our obedience to His word. This is why He said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Heb. 4:7

And he further clarified this thought in Heb. 5:9 wherein he said, “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him..." Heb. 5:9

So the idea that the writer is inculcating is that obedience to God is imperative for the believer.

And this is why he specifically pointed out that there were some who did not obey God in this way, and thus encourages us not to follow after their example of disobedience, lest we too forfeit that eternal rest from sin that God so wills to give to those of us who do not merely hear His voice, but live by it. "Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." Heb. 4:11

Thirdly, at this point I feel that it is appropriate to disclose something that I feel is critical to our understanding of the 7th day Sabbath, and how it relates to what is being said in this chapter.

According to the passage above (Heb. 4:11) we are being warned not to follow the example of those who were disobedient, lest we fall from the faith, and forfeit the promise of God's eternal rest. So we know that we are being told not to follow their example.

Nevertheless, the question that remains is: on what point did they disobey God?

The answer to this question can be deduced by reading the following verses:

So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the
desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.

That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'

So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' " Heb. 3:7-11

Notice how I put "Their hearts are always going astray", in bold letters. In essence, this was their problem. They sought to worship God with their works, while failing to love Him with their hearts, which were always going astray.

In other words, they worshipped Him for the wrong reasons, and this is why they rebelled against Him so frequently. For, they worshipped Him not because they loved Him, but because they wanted something from Him. And when they didn’t get what they wanted they rebelled, thus demonstrating that they really didn’t love God.

So what does this have to do with the 7th day Sabbath?

Well, let's take a look at something else:

"Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, 'So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'

And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words:

And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.

Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Heb. 4:3-7


It has a lot to do with the 7th day Sabbath because they didn’t keep it holy. Thus this was one of their disobedient acts. In fact if you look at Psalm 95 you will see that the writer from Hebrews quoted from it. And interestingly, that psalm is about worship. And what is the Sabbath all about? It's about worshipping God. And this is where they failed God. They didn’t worship Him aright.

But what is the right way to worship God?

Well, to answer that question we need to look at a few verses:

Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Jn. 14:15

But what commandments is Jesus referring to? The OT should shed some light on this.

Notice how the wording in this verse shares close ties with what Jesus said, “And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” Ex. 20:6

What commandments are being referred to here?

The Ten Commandments of course.

In fact, if you look at the following passage you will see the same idea: “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” 1Jn. 5:3

So we show forth our love to God by keeping His commandments, or as Hebrews 4 implies, by obeying His voice. Hence, this is what it means to worship Him.

But notice how the verse says “and His commandments are not grievous”. If we really love God we will honor Him by keeping His commandments, but we won’t make a god out of them. For, if we do that, what else will we be left with but grief, since His commandments can’t love us in return? Instead they condemn us by showing us who we really are—sinners. Rom. 3:20

Unfortunately, the people whom the writer of Hebrews is referring to, who rebelled against God, didn’t realize this. Instead, they made a god out of His commandments, and thus failed to remember the God who gave them life and liberty. Thus they were filled with grief, which explains why they complained so much. Hence, they made the commandments of God out to be “grievous”.

In fact, one of the main issues that the people faltered on which kept them from really remembering God was their inability to see the 7th day Sabbath for what it really is. That is, a time to rest from our works for the purpose of remembering the God who created us, and gave us the ability to work, not for pain, but to His glory. Hence, they refused to remember Him, because they allowed the cares of the world to swallow them up.

Does their example of grief not make it obvious why God gave man the Sabbath rest? But we must be careful not to worship the day itself, but the God who gave it to us, thus remembering Him in it.

You see, there are people, which you described in another post, who go through all of the motions of what they believe it means to keep the 7th day Sabbath holy, while failing to remember the Lord of the Sabbath.

In other words, they make Sabbath observance out to be burdensome with all of their rules and restrictions, thus not finding any real rest at all because they are spending more time making idols out of their rules than they are with actually worshipping God. Thus they observe the Sabbath, but they fail to remember the Lord of it. Hence, they really aren't keeping it holy.

And this, in essence, is the example of disobedience that the writer is admonishing us to avoid. That is, works without faith. For, "the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it." Heb. 4:2

And "without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Heb. 11:6

Therefore, if we hear His voice, we must not harden our hearts as did those who walked in disobedience, but we must walk by faith, which works by love, and thus purifies the soul.

In other words, we must be careful not to make idols out of man-made traditions, or even out of the commandments of God for that matter. Instead, we must accept God for whom He is, and has revealed Himself to be, taking His word to heart while walking in faith which discloses itself in obedience to His commandments.

Finally, I conclude that if we refuse to enter into God's literal Sabbath rest while knowing that we ought to, we will not enter into the promised rest, because by doing this we will be subjecting ourselves to the same example of disobedience as those whom God swore in His wrath would not enter into His rest. Heb. 4:3 Hence, the point of the chapter isn't that Jesus is the Sabbath rest, but that we ought to obey the voice of God who commands us to enter into the Sabbath rest.

I don't think that we need to keep the law, because Christ has fulfilled the law and we now need to live by His life and He will automatically fulfill the law within us.

But we can't do this without being lawful. Jesus isn't going to make us obey Him. He will tell us what we ought to do, but He will not make us do it, or do it for us. It is up to us to decide whether we are going to obey Him or not. But no matter what choice we make, God "will render to each one according to his deeds. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom. 2:6-8

Incidentally, the passage that I just quoted ties in very well with the thought of Hebrew 4.

I look forward to your response.

By the way, thank you for the kind comment that you made about SDAs.

 

[christianmomof3]

Thank you for your well thought out response.
I like the way you worded this:

In other words, we must be careful not to make idols out of man-made traditions, or even out of the commandments of God for that matter.

That is what I would call legalism and I agree that it is wrong. I was afraid that SDA in following the Sabbath might be into some legalism, but from what you have written, it does not sound that way. It sounds like you all are loving and enjoying the Lord on the Sabbath. That is good.
I also like this:

Instead, we must accept God for whom He is, and has revealed Himself to be, taking His word to heart while walking in faith which discloses itself in obedience to His commandments.

To take His word to heart is to take Christ Himself into our heart because He is the Word.
I still believe that what Christ wants us to do is to live out His life by allowing Him to guide us and live through us.
Although you said this:

But we can't do this without being lawful. Jesus isn't going to make us obey Him. He will tell us what we ought to do, but He will not make us do it, or do it for us. It is up to us to decide whether we are going to obey Him or not.

We can do this without being lawful. Because Christ Himself lives in us. We just have to deny our self and live by Him. He won't make us obey Him . It must be our choice. And honestly, it is in many ways easier to live by outward rules and regulations because you can just do the right thing by following the rules. But, then you are not allowing Christ to do it for you, and you can easily lose your love for the Lord and become legalistic. The only way to live Christ (Gal. 2:20) is to deny your soul life - to deny your self - your old man - your mind, emotion and will, and let God guide and lead you and live His life through and out of you. And for a control freak like me, that can be really hard sometimes. I have found that when something is too difficult for me to handle and I know that I have no control over the situation, I give it easily and gratefully over to God. But, all the little daily things that I CAN do, I forget to give to God. I get so busy doing them myself that I ignore God and what He can and will do for me. Then I get all stressed out and I realize it is my fault because I am doing all the work instead of resting in the Lord and allowing Him to do the work through me.

I like this definition of the Sabbath:

the 7th day Sabbath for what it really is. That is, a time to rest from our works for the purpose of remembering the God who created us, and gave us the ability to work, not for pain, but to His glory

I would say we need to do this all the time, not just on the seventh day. We should not do any works outside of Christ and we should stop and remember Him as often as possible. The Bible tells us to "Always rejoice, unceasingly pray, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." (I Thes. 5:16-18)

 

[woobadooba]

We can do this without being lawful. Because Christ Himself lives in us. We just have to deny our self and live by Him. He won't make us obey Him . It must be our choice

.

What I mean by saying that we can't do this without being lawful is that we can't just say we believe in Christ while continuing to live the way we've always lived even before we made a choice to believe in Him, and expect Him to save us in our sins.

Rather, we need to allow His word to transform our lives, to thus save us from our sins. And the only way that this is going to happen is if we render complete obedience to Him, thus fulfilling His purpose for us, which is to walk by faith which works by love, and purifies the soul.

This means we must choose to be lawful rather than lawless. In other words, we need to refuse to yield to sin, and seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness in all matters of life. For, as the song goes, "there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey."