Question....for Adventists

[2cents]

2cents,

The Lutheran Church that I attended taught that the soul is immortal, that the Ten Commandments have been nailed to the cross and we no longer need them. (This is exactly what my minister told me, "We no longer need the Ten Commandments.") They taught the pre-trib. rapture, the Sabbath day is not important--is has been replaced by Sunday worship. Also, the Lutheran Church that I attended recently voted on whether or not to ordain gay ministers. This should not even be an issue, as far as I am concerned.

So, I decided to seek a new church home. I prayed about it alot and studied the Bible for myself. I ended up at a SDA Church, which I am convinced is closer to scripture than the Lutheran Church.

In Christ,
midnightcry

Funny, I went from SDA to LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod). They are/were very conservative at the time.

Some of the scriptures I came across shortly after I was baptized SDA :

2 Cor. 3:2-11

"You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of hearts of flesh. And such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remanins is in glory."

Galatians 3:1-3:

" You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 4:9&10:

" But now that you have come to know God, or rather be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

Colossians 2:16&17:

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Acts 15:5, 15:19&20:

" But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

The Apostle James replies:

" Therefore it is my judgement that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood."

Romans 14:1&2:

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for passing judgment on his opinions. One man has the faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

The above Scriptures, given to us by the Apostles, seemed to me to clearly contradict SDA teachings on the Old Covenant Sabbath Laws and food laws. I wrote them without commentary for they speak for themselves.

When I was an SDA I felt condemned as I tried to obey all the rules. When I read that the Law engraved on stones was a ministry of condemnation and death, (meant as a teacher to lead us to Christ) I was liberated to seek Christ and his righteousness instead of trying in futility to obey Him in my own righteousness.

 

[Cliff2]

When I was an SDA I felt condemned as I tried to obey all the rules. When I read that the Law engraved on stones was a ministry of condemnation and death, (meant as a teacher to lead us to Christ) I was liberated to seek Christ and his righteousness instead of trying in futility to obey Him in my own righteousness. (2cents)

Surely the Lutherans also have rules.

How do you get on with their rules?

 

[OntheDL]

Funny, I went from SDA to LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod). They are/were very conservative at the time.

Some of the scriptures I came across shortly after I was baptized SDA :

2 Cor. 3:2-11

"You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of hearts of flesh. And such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remanins is in glory."

Galatians 3:1-3:

" You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 4:9&10:

" But now that you have come to know God, or rather be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

Colossians 2:16&17:

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Acts 15:5, 15:19&20:

" But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

The Apostle James replies:

" Therefore it is my judgement that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood."

Romans 14:1&2:

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for passing judgment on his opinions. One man has the faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

The above Scriptures, given to us by the Apostles, seemed to me to clearly contradict SDA teachings on the Old Covenant Sabbath Laws and food laws. I wrote them without commentary for they speak for themselves.

When I was an SDA I felt condemned as I tried to obey all the rules. When I read that the Law engraved on stones was a ministry of condemnation and death, (meant as a teacher to lead us to Christ) I was liberated to seek Christ and his righteousness instead of trying in futility to obey Him in my own righteousness.

If it's true that we no longer need to observe the commandments of God, then can we go rob a few banks and kill a few bystandards?

 

[MidnightCry]

Hey midnightcry, first of all, i'm also excited for you that you are excited..LOL. It's usually when one starts to see new light that one gets excited. The challenge or the sad thing is that many do not continue to receive new light. They either stop studying the bible or stop attending church and this is sad. I'm glad you're part of a church who is caring to you and more importantly, one whose people have balanced ideas. It's to strive for balance that is the key to scriptural understanding and christian lifestyle. I'm sure you'll understand what i mean better as you go along..

As for the question about why ppl are not attracted to the adventist faith. I don't know because i'm not them. I was born in an Adventist family and chose Adventism as i grew up. You were a lutheran and i'm sure you have more valid reasons than me to the answer of why ppl do not become Adventists.

Keep your mind open to new truth, be like the Bereans(Acts 17:11) who received hte word with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so.

BTW, i just had a mini study on Moses and his experience with the water from the rock. Look at Exo 17:5,6 and Numbers 20:8 and try to reconcile the two..hehhe..and yes, it can be reconciled..

Greetings seangoh,

Yes, I am so excited to be learning more of God's Word. I guess I want everyone to feel the same way. I feel blessed to have found the church I attend and feel that God led me there.

OK. I have compared the scripture you suggested above, Exodus 17:5,6 and Numbers 20:8. I think I could use a little help on this.

Moses was told to strike the rock so it would yield its water. Moses was told in Numbers 20:8 to speak to the rock. He was to rely on God to speak through him, he was to overcome his fear of speaking (not rely on Aaron to speak for him, as in the past.) He was to speak to the people first to glorify God in their presence. Instead, he relied on the rod; a human instrument.

Also, I think he was supposed to strike the rock once, he was angry and struck the rock twice. God did not tell him to strike the rock twice.

So this is really an example of how important obedience is to what God says to do.

I am not sure if this is correct; I will look into this more while I wait for your reply.

In Christ,
midnightcry

 

[OntheDL]

Greetings seangoh,

Yes, I am so excited to be learning more of God's Word. I guess I want everyone to feel the same way. I feel blessed to have found the church I attend and feel that God led me there.

OK. I have compared the scripture you suggested above, Exodus 17:5,6 and Numbers 20:8. I think I could use a little help on this.

Moses was told to strike the rock so it would yield its water. Moses was told in Numbers 20:8 to speak to the rock. He was to rely on God to speak through him, he was to overcome his fear of speaking (not rely on Aaron to speak for him, as in the past.) He was to speak to the people first to glorify God in their presence. Instead, he relied on the rod; a human instrument.

Also, I think he was supposed to strike the rock once, he was angry and struck the rock twice. God did not tell him to strike the rock twice.

So this is really an example of how important obedience is to what God says to do.

I am not sure if this is correct; I will look into this more while I wait for your reply.

In Christ,
midnightcry

Let me jump in this if you don't mind...

Without looking at the actual text, I think Moses said 'what must we do?' as if he had any part to do with it. Sustaining the israelites was the Lord's doing. The rock was Jesus Christ. Paul later confirmed this. Jesus is only smitten once, not twice.

 

[2cents]

If it's true that we no longer need to observe the commandments of God, then can we go rob a few banks and kill a few bystandards?

You misunderstand how we observe the commandments of God. The Spirit gives life and the letter kills, I didn't make that up, Paul did. Are you saved by grace, only to maintain that salvation by your own obedience to Law? This is a very important question, think about it.

 

[2cents]

Surely the Lutherans also have rules.

How do you get on with their rules?

Re-read my post! It's not about me trying to obey a set of rules, for that is futility. That is what the law teaches us, that we need a Savior.

Galatians 3:24&25 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

We live a new life in Christ and out from this union we live and grow and want to please Him. Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest 24,7, if we enter into that rest. Seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness.

We can try to please Him by trying to be righteous, but as the prophet said, " All our righteous deeds are like filthy rags." When you give up on your own righteousness and realize that you can only derive righteousness from Him then you can enter into His Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10 " For the one who has entered into His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His."

This may be a foreign concept to some, but instead of seeking to please Him by trying your best to obey a set of rules, how about worshiping Him just for who He is and see yourself start to transform into His image?

Really it's true, He stands at the door and knocks, if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into you and dine with you and you with Him.

 

[Cliff2]

Re-read my post! It's not about me trying to obey a set of rules, for that is futility. That is what the law teaches us, that we need a Savior.

Galatians 3:24&25 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

We live a new life in Christ and out from this union we live and grow and want to please Him. Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest 24,7, if we enter into that rest. Seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness.

We can try to please Him by trying to be righteous, but as the prophet said, " All our righteous deeds are like filthy rags." When you give up on your own righteousness and realize that you can only derive righteousness from Him then you can enter into His Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10 " For the one who has entered into His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His."

This may be a foreign concept to some, but instead of seeking to please Him by trying your best to obey a set of rules, how about worshiping Him just for who He is and see yourself start to transform into His image?

Really it's true, He stands at the door and knocks, if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into you and dine with you and you with Him.

I am yet to hear anyone in the SDA Church say that we are saved by our works.

I don't know where it comes from.

Not from the Church I attend.

 

[moicherie]

I am yet to hear anyone in the SDA Church say that we are saved by our works.

I don't know where it comes from.

Not from the Church I attend.

Those who know church history would say that Adventism went through a phase when we stressed works more than we should have. There are some Adventist still like that and doing their damage.

 

[seangoh]

Those who know church history would say that Adventism went through a phase when we stressed works more than we should have. There are some Adventist still like that and doing their damage.

In a way, i also can understand the reason if they were so. The Sabbath was one of the truths that they discovered and keeping the Sabbath meant demonstrating it. If i realise a truth, i would probably do the same and emphasize it. But that doesn't mean they stop believing in righteousness by faith. They just emphasized it on the basis that christians already had the belief that salvation is by faith. And since the Sabbath required an outward expression, it is seen by christians today as "works" which i find a misunderstanding of the Sabbath.
Now if we as Adventists want to evangelise to non-christians, it's a different matter as we introduce Christ who is our salvation first. Then teaching them how to live life would be secondary.

 

[seangoh]

Greetings seangoh,

Yes, I am so excited to be learning more of God's Word. I guess I want everyone to feel the same way. I feel blessed to have found the church I attend and feel that God led me there.

OK. I have compared the scripture you suggested above, Exodus 17:5,6 and Numbers 20:8. I think I could use a little help on this.

Moses was told to strike the rock so it would yield its water. Moses was told in Numbers 20:8 to speak to the rock. He was to rely on God to speak through him, he was to overcome his fear of speaking (not rely on Aaron to speak for him, as in the past.) He was to speak to the people first to glorify God in their presence. Instead, he relied on the rod; a human instrument.

Also, I think he was supposed to strike the rock once, he was angry and struck the rock twice. God did not tell him to strike the rock twice.

So this is really an example of how important obedience is to what God says to do.

I am not sure if this is correct; I will look into this more while I wait for your reply.

In Christ,
midnightcry

Hi midnightcry, good thoughts there. Christ was "smitten" because of our transgressions and His sacrifice was once for all. It wasn't necessary for Him to be smitten twice. In the same way Moses was told in Exodus to strike the rock once, which he did and water gushed out. In another incident in Numbers, Moses was told to speak to the rock (which can symbolise that there wasn't a need to strike it again since it was struck before), but he struck it twice because of frustration and impatience towards the people.

So far that's my understanding. It's basically two incidents at different locations. So that would mean different rocks too. If you've additional findings do add.

 

[2cents]

I am yet to hear anyone in the SDA Church say that we are saved by our works.

I don't know where it comes from.

Not from the Church I attend.[/quote

So if I eat pork and lobster and worship on Sunday I could still be a member in good standing?

 

[MidnightCry]

Hi midnightcry, good thoughts there. Christ was "smitten" because of our transgressions and His sacrifice was once for all. It wasn't necessary for Him to be smitten twice. In the same way Moses was told in Exodus to strike the rock once, which he did and water gushed out. In another incident in Numbers, Moses was told to speak to the rock (which can symbolise that there wasn't a need to strike it again since it was struck before), but he struck it twice because of frustration and impatience towards the people.

So far that's my understanding. It's basically two incidents at different locations. So that would mean different rocks too. If you've additional findings do add.

seangoh,

Very good. I didn't realize the rock represents Christ, I should have seen that. It's amazing how we can always learn something new in scripture that we haven't seen before.

Oh, I feel like I have so much catching up to do to be a SDA......oh, well...back to studying!

midnightcry

 

[OntheDL]

You misunderstand how we observe the commandments of God. The Spirit gives life and the letter kills, I didn't make that up, Paul did. Are you saved by grace, only to maintain that salvation by your own obedience to Law? This is a very important question, think about it.

No, I don't think you understand the law. The law is a reflection of God's characters. It points our sins and our need for Jesus. The law doesnot save us. However if you are truly born-again, you keep all the 10 commandments of God.

 

[2cents]

No, I don't think you understand the law. The law is a reflection of God's characters. It points our sins and our need for Jesus. The law doesnot save us. However if you are truly born-again, you keep all the 10 commandments of God.

1. So do you say that you perfectly keep the Law of God?

2. How exactly does the seventh day sabbath reflect Gods character?

3. Is Christ or is He not our Sabbath rest( Heb.4)?

4. Does enforcing Jewish food laws, and (lets be honest we all know that a good SDA is a vegetarian), line up with any New Covenant scriptures, and could you please reference them?

5. Do you believe in the investigative judgment as taught by your church, and can you prove it by New Covenant scripture?

6. Can you specifically critique some of the Scriptural references in my previous posts? So far no one has done that.

 

[Cliff2]

Those who know church history would say that Adventism went through a phase when we stressed works more than we should have. There are some Adventist still like that and doing their damage.

I am sure that in the world wide Church there will be some who think that works will save them.

Our preaching at times in the early years would seem to indicate that works was preached to a great extent.

Although I would have to say that mentality is not as prominant as it was.

 

[OntheDL]

1. So do you say that you perfectly keep the Law of God?

That's not the point. Does your salvation depend on what other people do or may not do?

2. How exactly does the seventh day sabbath reflect Gods character?

Commandments 1-4 reflect our duty to God. 5-6 reflect our duty to men.

Jesus said 'If you love me, keep my commandments as I have kept my Father's commandments'.

3. Is Christ or is He not our Sabbath rest( Heb.4)?

So? Where is the scripture that says we don't have to keep the sabbath because Jesus is our rest? The scripture says quite the contrary:

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

4. Does enforcing Jewish food laws, and (lets be honest we all know that a good SDA is a vegetarian), line up with any New Covenant scriptures, and could you please reference them?

The dietary laws are for our health.

1 Cor 6
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

The original diet was the vegetarian diet. And it shall be our diet in the new heaven and new earth.

5. Do you believe in the investigative judgment as taught by your church, and can you prove it by New Covenant scripture?

We have a thread on this topic. http://www.christianforums.com/t2564293-the-biblical-support-for-the-investigative-judgement.html

Why only new testament? The bible is not made up of both the new and old testaments? Out of 7900+ NT verses, there are 2500 citations of the OT verses. 1/3 of Revelation verses are quotes of the OT.

6. Can you specifically critique some of the Scriptural references in my previous posts? So far no one has done that.

I think most of what you quoted have been addressed many times on this forum. Give me one scriptural reference that struck the most.

 

[OntheDL]

I am sure that in the world wide Church there will be some who think that works will save them.

Our preaching at times in the early years would seem to indicate that works was preached to a great extent.

Although I would have to say that mentality is not as prominant as it was.

Anyone can call himself a SDA and believe in different things. However the fact is no offical documents show that the church officially endorses righteousness by works.

I think what Moicherie referred to was the 1888 issue. Prior to 1888, some SDA leaders advocated righteousness by works. This issue was hotly debated in 1888's Minneapolis conference. Two men, A.T. Jones and E.J.Waggoner opposed it (by works). Ellen White supported these two men. Many leadership positions accepted Ellen White's view of righteousness by faith. But many still questioned and opposed her overruling the offical church leaders. As a result, she left for Australia for 9 years. Most of them eventually accepted her view. Maybe because the common people accept her and that's where the financial support comes from.

 

[MidnightCry]

At the church I attend, which is traditional SDA, I have not learned that we are saved by works.

I have learned that religious activity is quite useless if we are not doing the will of God. Obedience is a theme that is found throughout scripture, starting in the Garden of Eden. We need to love God enough to keep all of His commandments....

"If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

"Now by this we know wthat we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1John 2:3,4

It is exciting to be part of a church that follows Christ all the way. For me, it is like my eyes have been opened after a long time of not seeing.

midnightcry

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Funny, I went from SDA to LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod). They are/were very conservative at the time.

Some of the scriptures I came across shortly after I was baptized SDA :

2 Cor. 3:2-11

"You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of hearts of flesh. And such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remanins is in glory."

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses,which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Yeshua My Salvation > Paul is not discussing the [TORAH] in these verses he is discussing the ministration... Back then the ministration pronounced immediate death for violations of [TORAH]. The differences lays not with {TORAH] but rather with the ministrations of the [TORAH], notice how Paul contrasts the ministration of death and the ministration of the Spirit.

The minstration of condemnation is followed by the ministration of the Spirit, there is a big difference between the [TORAH] and it's administration.

Here is what Paul meant when he spoke of the ministration of the law.

Exodus 31:15 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Lev.20:9 9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Lev.24:16-17 16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. 17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.

What was wipedout was the ministration of death, not [TORAH].

Galatians 3:1-3:

" You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Yeshua My Salvation > Unlike some Adventist, i do not believe works save, no one is saved by the works of the Law. Yet this is not something new that came into existance in the New Testament as some teach.. The gospel of grace is taught all throughout the O.T. Take a look at the following: David asked God to save him and he shall keep his testimonies? Psalms 119:146 146 I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies.

Yeshua My Salvation > David did not say i will keep thy testimonies in order to gain Eternal life.

How about Jeremiah.13:23 23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Yeshua My Salvation > If G-d had put Jeremiah through a system that consisted of works to obtain eternal life, this would not be recorded in his word.. But the truth is that G-d did not put his people through a system of works to obtain righteousness... Salvation has never been by any works, nor by how well one observes any law codes... The laws cannot justifie nor can they save, Salvation has always been by grace through.

Isa.64:6 6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Yeshua My Salvation > I have a question, on what basis do you hold the N.T if you believe the Old is obselete? How can you hold the N.T when you don't have the Old to sustain it? On What basis?