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Still not an answer to my question. We can't have a discussion when you avoid answering questions.
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Your response at #56 to my #55 post was a red herring logical fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you continue to use this kind of illogical strategy with a logical fallacy.
The question remains unanswered because of your logical fallacy. You are not addressing the content of what I posted at #55.
When will you quit using red herring logical fallacies in your responses to me? You have done this too many times to mention over the years.
Oz
I submit to God's omniscience of what happened with the Fall into sin by Adam and Eve and God's omniscience of how Genesis 2:16-17 was implemented in God's plan for the universe, including God's giving Adam and Eve the ability to say yea or nay to good and evil.
Oz
Even your NLT says this in the way it is written in the KJV, but you do not list it that way. Why do you repeatedly misquote this passage? Really want to know your reasoning...OzSpen said:...Gen 2:16-17 states,16 But the Lord God warned him, You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die (NLT).
- Freely eat from every tree
- If he ate from the tree of the knowledge of evil, he would 'die'.
- What did he do?
- The outcome was: He ate from the evil tree and death entered the human race...
These statements are severely incorrect. For an accurate discussion of what inductive Bible study is, please see the following,
Bauer, David R., and Robert A. Traina. Inductive Bible Study: A Comprehensive Guide to the Practice of Hermeneutics. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2011.
First I would point out that there is no such thing as lay and clergy. We are all the same. Some are just called to a different work than others.You seem to be exposed to the wrong kind of understanding of discovery (inductive) Bible study. At the lay level, I recommend Oletta Wald, The Joy of Discovery in Bible Study and the book that PrincetonGuy has recommended (for a more advanced level) by Bauer & Traina. Details for the Oletta Wald publications are:[FONT="]Oletta Wald 1975[FONT="].[/FONT] The Joy of Discovery in Bible Study (rev. ed.). Minneapolis, Minnesota: Augsburg Publishing House,; Oletta Wald[FONT="] 1976.[/FONT] The Joy of Teaching Discovery Bible Study. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Augsburg Publishing House.[/FONT]Last night I completed an inductive Bible study of Col 4:2-6 that I'm leading this morning and the three areas we pursue in this kind of study are:
The focus is NOT on application alone. The focus is on ALL three areas. In fact, in my preparation for this study I have made sure that I have gone to cross referenced verses that assist in interpretation.
- Observation
- Interpretation
- Application
It seems that you want to impose your understanding on the text with statements such as, 'While the literal is true an (sic) cannot be ignored the spiritual messages is the meaning'. This is not true. The exegesis of the text is where one finds the 'meaning' of the text. From where do you get your 'spiritual messages' of the meaning? Is that your application?
In inductive Bible study, application is only one of three aspects and it comes AFTER the other two aspects, observation and interpretation, have taken place. I agree that some may place more emphasis on application, but I've seen that more often in a 'Life Application' Bible study and NOT in discovery, inductive Bible study.
Oz
They are not incorrect. I too was taught the inductive method of Bibles study in my hermeneutics class.
The fact that you disagree with me in no way makes my statements incorrect.
Still not an answer to my question. We can't have a discussion when you avoid answering questions.
You refuse to answer the content of my post, so you are giving me another red herring logical fallacy. When will you quit being illogical in your response?
Then we have come to an agreement here. The only thing we lack is that what you call "real choice" I call simply "a perception of choice." It's not real choice if it's foreordained imo.
My question directly reflected the content of your post whether you recognized it or not. Calling it a fallacy does not make it so. So we could have been discussing your post, but you'd rather play these games. We cannot have a discussion when you do this.
I read from the KJV mostly. But here's another interesting demonstration of the Creator-Son not being omniscient. Gen 6:7 He was about to destroy all man and every living thing off the earth until He "found" Noah and his generations.The word in Gen. 6:6 is relent, not repent in my Bible at least. Are you saying that the Son did the creating days 1-6 in Gen. 1?
The concept of irresistible grace is supported by Scripture via election. I guess the disciples were "yes-men"...see John 15.
First I would point out that there is no such thing as lay and clergy. We are all the same. Some are just called to a different work than others.
Second I am familiar with what inductive Bible study is as I was taught it in school. As I told PrincetonGuy the fact that you disagree with me in no way makes my statements incorrect or wrong. We have a different perspective to be sure. You may disagree with my hermeneutic method but I seek to interpret the Scriptures the way that Christ and the Apostles did.
Here's another understanding you might slip into your Bible — foreordain. What God foreknows, He takes into account in His overall plan for creation. It does not mean that God necessarily meant for that to happen the way He foresaw that it would. In fact, the only events and people that God can predestine to actively carry out His plan are believers (Ro 8:29). They are the ones who will obey Him, right?Then we have come to an agreement here. The only thing we lack is that what you call "real choice" I call simply "a perception of choice." It's not real choice if it's foreordained imo.
Even your NLT says this in the way it is written in the KJV, but you do not list it that way. Why do you repeatedly misquote this passage? Really want to know your reasoning...
Where do you get that it was an evil tree? The passage says it is a tree of a specific knowledge...
.
Your response at #56 did not answer the content of my post at #55. So your #56 post was a red herring fallacy, thus making logical discussion impossible. Don't you understand that when you use a logical fallacy, you are practising illogic?
Still avoiding the question, I see. I can't say it was unexpected.
You are still using a red herring logical fallacy in your response to me. Therefore, reasonable, logical discussion is impossible because of your actions.
Until you improve your behaviour through logical actions towards me, I will not respond any further on this thread to you.
Oz
Here's another understanding you might slip into your Bible foreordain. What God foreknows, He takes into account in His overall plan for creation. It does not mean that God necessarily meant for that to happen the way He foresaw that it would. In fact, the only events and people that God can predestine to actively carry out His plan are believers (Ro 8:29). They are the ones who will obey Him, right?
You're leaving out that God created everyone. If He foreknew, and decided to create anyway, then it must be part of His plan or He wouldn't have created them...right?
IOW, Why does God create people He knows will never believe and will just send them to Hell? Gotta be a reason for that...what's your answer?
If God never created them, they would make no decisions. There would be nothing to foreknow.
If a man never chooses Jesus, this is what God foreknew before the foundation of the world.
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