Question about the Virgin being sinless

[narnia59]

St John the Forerunnner is one.

Is that Orthodox dogma?

 

[narnia59]

well, yes He chose her for a reason, but He didn't offer her anything that He doesn't offer the rest of us. the reason she is the Mother of God is because she totally said yes to God's will, which was done freely. her uniqueness was her total submission to God.

and yes, every aborted baby is sinless

I agree they are, let me rephrase the question. Are there other people who have lived a normal life to adulthood who have remained sinless?

 

[prodromos]

Is that Orthodox dogma?

Doctrine.

 

[narnia59]

Doctrine.

Are there others?

 

[prodromos]

Are there others?

Enoch, perhaps Abel.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I agree they are, let me rephrase the question. Are there other people who have lived a normal life to adulthood who have remained sinless?

to my knowledge, no. at least, not like her.

 

[narnia59]

to my knowledge, no. at least, not like her.

Prodomos indicated it was Orthodox doctrine that John the Baptist remained sinless.

If it is possible for any person to do this, why only one of billions ever has?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Prodomos indicated it was Orthodox doctrine that John the Baptist remained sinless.

If it is possible for any person to do this, why only one of billions ever has?

there are plenty of people who can be argued as sinless (even Job in the OT).

to your question, because God knew only one would. of the billions, only one ever betrayed Him for 30 pieces of silver.

 

[narnia59]

there are plenty of people who can be argued as sinless (even Job in the OT).

to your question, because God knew only one would. of the billions, only one ever betrayed Him for 30 pieces of silver.

All of us have betrayed him in some fashion by our sin.

It makes no sense to me that if it's possible to have a fallen nature and not sin, why more have not been able to achieve this.

Regardless, can you explain to me why the Orthodox seem to think that if Mary was freed from her fallen nature so in essense created as Adam and Eve were, that means she lost her free will when they obviously had not?

 

[ArmyMatt]

All of us have betrayed him in some fashion by our sin.

It makes no sense to me that if it's possible to have a fallen nature and not sin, why more have not been able to achieve this.

Regardless, can you explain to me why the Orthodox seem to think that if Mary was freed from her fallen nature so in essense created as Adam and Eve were, that means she lost her free will when they obviously had not?

none of us did for 30 pieces of silver. there's lots of people who were the only ones in history who did something specific.

well, no offense, but Orthodoxy doesn't care what makes sense to you.

I never said she lost her free will. I absolutely agree that with the IC her freedom remained intact. that's not our issue with the IC. and that's not relevant to the discussion.

 

[narnia59]

none of us did for 30 pieces of silver. there's lots of people who were the only ones in history who did something specific.

well, no offense, but Orthodoxy doesn't care what makes sense to you.

I never said she lost her free will. I absolutely agree that with the IC her freedom remained intact. that's not our issue with the IC. and that's not relevant to the discussion.

No offense taken.

I think remaining sinless is a different animal than your example, but that would be my opinion.

Earlier in the thread it was stated by an Orthodox that the Immaculate Conception is a schismatic idea that God made Mary incapable of sin at her birth. It's not the first time I've seen that expressed. You're saying you don't agree?

 

[ArmyMatt]

No offense taken.

I think remaining sinless is a different animal than your example, but that would be my opinion.

Earlier in the thread it was stated by an Orthodox that the Immaculate Conception is a schismatic idea that God made Mary incapable of sin at her birth. It's not the first time I've seen that expressed. You're saying you don't agree?

sure it's different, just saying that other people have done things uniquely to them, so saying that she alone of the billions isn't a strong point to make.

that's not the case I have been making against the IC, aside from it being a heretical idea.

 

[narnia59]

sure it's different, just saying that other people have done things uniquely to them, so saying that she alone of the billions isn't a strong point to make.

that's not the case I have been making against the IC, aside from it being a heretical idea.

No, but others often do make that case and I am asking if you disagree with it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

No, but others often do make that case and I am asking if you disagree with it?

no, I don't. but again, that's not what I have been arguing.

 

[narnia59]

no, I don't. but again, that's not what I have been arguing.

I believe that you are an Orthodox priest which is why I thought you may be the best person to answer my question.

We know that Adam and Eve were created with a human nature that was not fallen. We also know from history that did not mean they no longer had free will, nor did it mean that they were made by God where they could not sin.

I'm trying to understand the Orthodox view (which you said you do not disagree with) that if Mary was likewise created with an unfallen human nature that means that she did not have free will and that she was made by God where she could not sin. I guess at this point I am looking for anyone who can explain that reasoning to me.

 

[prodromos]

Pope John Paul II said that Mary was preserved from all actual sin and that this was a special privilege granted to her.

Even the Christian transformed and renewed by grace is not spared the possibility of sinning. Grace does not preserve him from all sin throughout his whole fife, unless, as the Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.
​

We reject this because instead of Mary being the great example, it simply makes her the great exception. As St John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated, it denies all her virtues.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe that you are an Orthodox priest which is why I thought you may be the best person to answer my question.

We know that Adam and Eve were created with a human nature that was not fallen. We also know from history that did not mean they no longer had free will, nor did it mean that they were made by God where they could not sin.

I'm trying to understand the Orthodox view (which you said you do not disagree with) that if Mary was likewise created with an unfallen human nature that means that she did not have free will and that she was made by God where she could not sin. I guess at this point I am looking for anyone who can explain that reasoning to me.

while it has nothing to do with her being free, she wasn't created with an unfallen human nature. she was fallen because she was conceived by the fallen mode of reproduction, unlike the pre-fallen Adam and Eve.

plus, if she was created unfallen and she didn't sin, she wouldn't have died.

 

[narnia59]

Pope John Paul II said that Mary was preserved from all actual sin and that this was a special privilege granted to her.

Even the Christian transformed and renewed by grace is not spared the possibility of sinning. Grace does not preserve him from all sin throughout his whole fife, unless, as the Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.
​

We reject this because instead of Mary being the great example, it simply makes her the great exception. As St John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated, it denies all her virtues.

I had to research that quote by JPII to identify it's source. It's from a daily audience. He most likely said millions of words during his papacy. Those do not constitute part of his office of teaching authority, are usually not vetted to a great degree nor is the translation scrutinized. So when something is said that could be interpreted in a way that differs from known Church teaching, charity requires us to determine if it could be interpreted in a way that does align with Church teaching. In this case, I would ask if by "immunity" from sin he means she was enabled by the gift of grace to remain sinless, or if she was compelled to. The former would align with Church teaching that she freely cooperated with the grace she was given.

JPII's primary work from his office of teaching authority is REDEMPTORIS MATER, in which he makes clear many times she freely cooperated by a choice of obedience with the grace God gave her.

I know this doesn't make sense to Orthodox sensibilities, but the idea that Mary received a fallen nature, lived in a fallen world, received no special gift of supernatural assistance and lived a sinless life -- this to me actually makes her more 'super human' and unreachable than the Catholic view. That would mean she's done something that billions of us have failed to do, which would indeed make her the great exception.

 

[narnia59]

while it has nothing to do with her being free, she wasn't created with an unfallen human nature. she was fallen because she was conceived by the fallen mode of reproduction, unlike the pre-fallen Adam and Eve.

plus, if she was created unfallen and she didn't sin, she wouldn't have died.

Please let me know if this becomes more of a debate than is allowed. That is not my intent, but the line can easily become blurred.

I am confused as to whether or not you believe that if Mary were immaculately conceived (which is certainly possible for God even via the fallen mode of reproduction) if you belive that means Mary lost her free will.

Can I assume that your same reasoning about death applies to Christ -- the reason he died was because he was created with a fallen nature?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Please let me know if this becomes more of a debate than is allowed. That is not my intent, but the line can easily become blurred.

I am confused as to whether or not you believe that if Mary were immaculately conceived (which is certainly possible for God even via the fallen mode of reproduction) if you belive that means Mary lost her free will.

Can I assume that your same reasoning about death applies to Christ -- the reason he died was because he was created with a fallen nature?

I already said no. if the IC is true, I don't see her losing her free will.

and no, Christ was unfallen because He was born according to the unfallen mode of reproduction. He died because He willed Himself to die.