Question about the Virgin being sinless

[ArmyMatt]

Do we have her tomb. I've learnt something here.

yes, it's in Gethsemane

 

[Light of the East]

taint
[tānt]
VERB
tainted (past tense) · tainted (past participle)

1. contaminate or pollute (something).
   "the air was tainted by fumes from the cars"
   synonyms:
   contaminate · pollute · adulterate · infect · blight · befoul · spoil · soil · ruin · destroy
   • affect with a bad or undesirable quality.
     "his administration was tainted by scandal"
     synonyms:
     tarnish · sully · blacken · stain · besmirch · smear · blot · blemish · stigmatize · mar · corrupt · defile · soil · muddy · foul · dirty · damage · injure · harm · hurt · debase · infect · poison · vitiate · drag through the mud · blot one's copybook · brand
   • archaic
     (of food or water) become contaminated or polluted.
     "the rennet should be soaked in water containing sufficient salt to keep it from tainting"
     synonyms:
     go/become sour · go off · sour · curdle · become rancid · go bad · spoil

Tainted is simply the wrong word to use here - period! She was in no way tainted by sin because She did not sin! End of that discussion.

Now...what is the right word (or phrase) to use? As Fr. Matt has said, they should have sought an answer to why did She die? And the reason is very simple - She is part and parcel of the human race, and the consequence for all human beings is that until Christ defeated it, death reigned over mankind as the consequence of Adam's Fall. Being fully human, and not some alien hibred created by some "Immaculate Conception," She was also subject to that consequence, as we all are.

You should also turn that question around on them and ask them why they think She had to be conceived in an immaculate fashion, then remind them that their own saints violently opposed this idea (Bernard of Clairvaux and St. Thomas Aquinas). Then ask them if they realize the soteriological consequence of the idea of an Immaculate Conception: i.e., it means that Mary was not like us in every way and therefore, Her flesh, the flesh which gave flesh to Christ, was not completely human as we are. And if Christ is not like us in every manner, then we have no salvation.

St. John Maximovitch. An Orthodox Christian Understanding of the Immaculate Conception

 

[Rusviking876]

Some Catholic friends from my college were asking about the Orthodox opinion of the Immaculate Conception and one said:
"It just seems unfitting to me that Jesus could be in a womb of a woman tainted by sin. Do y’all see her as a fulfillment of the ark of the covenant?"

What should I say?

Mary was sinless throughout her life, she was not tainted by sin (unless you mean original sin) but she chose to not sin. This is the important distinction. We believe that she was born as any other woman is born, free to chose good or evil. Yes, she was the culmination of the virtue of the Old Testament. The Roman Catholic view, however, is that God removed her free will so that she had no capacity for sin. Their view is heresy, diminishing the glory of the Mother of God and defaming God, as if He goes around removing free will from people. RCC heretics are up to their usual trickery strawmanning the true Church.

 

[Not David]

Mary was sinless throughout her life, she was not tainted by sin (unless you mean original sin) but she chose to not sin. This is the important distinction. We believe that she was born as any other woman is born, free to chose good or evil. Yes, she was the culmination of the virtue of the Old Testament. The Roman Catholic view, however, is that God removed her free will so that she had no capacity for sin. Their view is heresy, diminishing the glory of the Mother of God and defaming God, as if He goes around removing free will from people. RCC heretics are up to their usual trickery strawmanning the true Church.

Nice to have another Orthodox Zoomer around.

 

[JohnTh]

Do we have her tomb. I've learnt something here.

Here is a full photo journal from her tomb.

Besides that, IC would teach us that there is salvation outside Christ which is impossible.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Likewise (tangent?) permit: I have heard/ read/ that according to all that is known , in the Bible,

Joseph, with the coat of many colors, did not sin. Is that true or not ?

We say certain things in the prayers frequently ...

"For You alone (Christ) are without sin"

"For there is no one who lives and does not sin"

And so on.

I'm not sure what your point is. It couldn't be debated here if you disagree (but you can open a thread in St. Justin's to debate). But yes, Joseph sinned. He fell short of Christ's perfection.

Many people are said to live "blameless" lives. Many have degrees of holiness. Be careful because the nuances are easy to misunderstand.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I admit that it saddens me to see that our celebration of the Dormition of the Theotokos has been replaced by the "Assumption" in Catholicism and is slowly leading to the belief that she never died, because the emphasis is changed.

I can't understand how it's possible to move to that understanding and not realize it represents a change in the doctrine if you look back over the centuries.

 

[Not David]

I admit that it saddens me to see that our celebration of the Dormition of the Theotokos has been replaced by the "Assumption" in Catholicism and is slowly leading to the belief that she never died, because the emphasis is changed.

I can't understand how it's possible to move to that understanding and not realize it represents a change in the doctrine if you look back over the centuries.

Some people just don't want to believe. That has happened to me before.

 

[Tolworth John]

hat, IC would teach

'IC' ? What is 'IC'

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Oh boy... much rubbish in this thread "sigh"...
First of all we (catholics) believe that she fell asleep (died) and that she shortly after was assumed into heaven. This is what the church teaches in mariology regarding the death and the assumption of our Lady.

Where do you people get the part where we supposedly denies this fact? It's a major part of Legenda Aurea and has never been doubted or at least in hundreds of years.

We dogmatized her assumption in the 1850 or something, but that clarified just a detail and wasnt brand new. It was believed that she was taken to heavens (again when she was already fallen asleep) only with her soul. The 1850 dogma defined it as a bodily assumption aswell. It's a distinction, but not something entirely different from the predating belief.

Then to the Imaculata doctrine...
We believe as have already been stated in this very thread that she was conceived without the stain of ancestral sin or original sin. She was redeemed of this before the world was made. She had this purpose (of bearing Christ in her womb) before God even created the world. We have biblical references for this one, but I dont have a bible in front of me now.

She was redeemed just as the rest of us. She was as someone said in this thread saved from her sins as are we, but she was redeemed prior to her birth whereby we're redeemed later on.
She didnt bear the stain of sin, but we do and get healed through theosis and after our death.

She received special graces, that most people never do, but that makes sense. I've yet to hear about another Theotokos.

This is the based upon the idea that nothing dirty and sinful could ever inhabit the Lord who is pure light. This is the same reason why a sinner cant stand to face the light of God at judgement day unless he's sanctified and healed by the wounds of Christ.

Mary, if she had been a sinner would've died when being pregnant with Christ. A temple must be a sacred and holy place and Mary was the human tabernacle of our Lord, the eternal Logos.

How this comes of as odd to Christian's is indeed weird. So to sum up:

*we believe she was born without sin as an act of the Holy Spirit during the conception of Mary in St. Anna
* Mary was a redeemed sinner - protected from sin and stain from before she was conceived.
* Mary died as we all do
* Mary was assumed into heavens when she was dead.
* Mary was assumed into heaven with body and soul.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have heard many Roman Catholics say she never died, to include clergy.

as far as the IC goes, if God could redeem her before her conception, why not everyone?

 

[Rusviking876]

'IC' ? What is 'IC'

Immaculate Conception, the Roman Catholic schismatic idea that God made Mary incapable of sin at her birth.

 

[Rusviking876]

Oh boy... much rubbish in this thread "sigh"...
First of all we (catholics) believe that she fell asleep (died) and that she shortly after was assumed into heaven. This is what the church teaches in mariology regarding the death and the assumption of our Lady.

Where do you people get the part where we supposedly denies this fact? It's a major part of Legenda Aurea and has never been doubted or at least in hundreds of years.

We dogmatized her assumption in the 1850 or something, but that clarified just a detail and wasnt brand new. It was believed that she was taken to heavens (again when she was already fallen asleep) only with her soul. The 1850 dogma defined it as a bodily assumption aswell. It's a distinction, but not something entirely different from the predating belief.

Then to the Imaculata doctrine...
We believe as have already been stated in this very thread that she was conceived without the stain of ancestral sin or original sin. She was redeemed of this before the world was made. She had this purpose (of bearing Christ in her womb) before God even created the world. We have biblical references for this one, but I dont have a bible in front of me now.

She was redeemed just as the rest of us. She was as someone said in this thread saved from her sins as are we, but she was redeemed prior to her birth whereby we're redeemed later on.
She didnt bear the stain of sin, but we do and get healed through theosis and after our death.

She received special graces, that most people never do, but that makes sense. I've yet to hear about another Theotokos.

This is the based upon the idea that nothing dirty and sinful could ever inhabit the Lord who is pure light. This is the same reason why a sinner cant stand to face the light of God at judgement day unless he's sanctified and healed by the wounds of Christ.

Mary, if she had been a sinner would've died when being pregnant with Christ. A temple must be a sacred and holy place and Mary was the human tabernacle of our Lord, the eternal Logos.

How this comes of as odd to Christian's is indeed weird. So to sum up:

*we believe she was born without sin as an act of the Holy Spirit during the conception of Mary in St. Anna
* Mary was a redeemed sinner - protected from sin and stain from before she was conceived.
* Mary died as we all do
* Mary was assumed into heavens when she was dead.
* Mary was assumed into heaven with body and soul.

“Mary was a protected sinner”.
So what makes the Mother of God a Saint then if she was made incapable of sin? You’ve taken the greatest of the Saints and said she played the game with a handicap. Also if God could reverse the fall for one person, why didn’t He reverse it for the entire world? None of this makes sense.

 

[Not David]

I have heard many Roman Catholics say she never died, to include clergy.

as far as the IC goes, if God could redeem her before her conception, why not everyone?

Yes, even in the original discussion, some were saying she didn't die.

 

[Not David]

What I don't understand. If the Virgin did not have personal sins. Why do we?

 

[Rusviking876]

What I don't understand. If the Virgin did not have personal sins. Why do we?

She was the greatest of the Saints and we simply don’t match that holiness. Remember we all are born with the stain of original sin collectively, including all the Saints. Anyone subject to death has the stain of original sin. That’s not counting Our Lord though who destroyed death and was not subject to it. Personal sin on the other hand is from what we choose to do or not do, the stuff you confess to a priest.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I have heard many Roman Catholics say she never died, to include clergy.

as far as the IC goes, if God could redeem her before her conception, why not everyone?

Well I'd highly recommend you not to ask around about Catholicism, but instead to directly to the source CCC.
We have a catechism that treats pretty much every topic there is to have an opinion about.

Laymen and clergy err all of the time and adhere to their own perceptions rather to that of the church.

As for your second question, I'll answer it with a question on my own. Why did Judas betray Christ? He's spoken of as a traitor even before he betrayed the Son of Man. How about pharaohs hardened heart?

This touches upon one of the greatest mysteries of God. The free will and predestination. This topic would deserve a thread of it's own. It's as I'm sure you know a HUGE theological issue.

So why did he do this with Mary and not with you and I? Well, we'll never know, but each one of us serves a purpose and hers are just different and greater than ours.

 

[prodromos]

First of all we (catholics) believe that she fell asleep (died) and that she shortly after was assumed into heaven. This is what the church teaches in mariology regarding the death and the assumption of our Lady.

I'm guessing you've never been involved in discussions on Catholic Answers forum regarding the I.C.
If her death is taught by the Catholic Church, it is taught very badly. I suspect the vast majority of Catholics haven't heard of, let alone read Legenda Aurea.
What do the prayers and hymns for the feast day of the Assumption say regarding her passing? Do they mention her death at all?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I'm guessing you've never been involved in discussions on Catholic Answers forum regarding the I.C.
If her death is taught by the Catholic Church, it is taught very badly. I suspect the vast majority of Catholics haven't heard of, let alone read Legenda Aurea.

Unfortunately I have. Yes, they have without knowing what it is. Its the main source of our sacred tradition.

 

[prodromos]

Unfortunately I have. Yes, they have without knowing what it is. Its the main source of our sacred tradition.

I added this to my post after you had replied and would appreciate if you could answer this:
What do the prayers and hymns for the feast day of the Assumption say regarding her passing? Do they mention her death at all?