Question about the Virgin being sinless

[ArmyMatt]

But you do agree that art from the 16th century picturing Mary as dead kind of provides some legitimacy to my claims?
They were accepted through an inquisition and believe me they refused art too...

As for the IC I believe it serves as an excellent example of forcing human logic upon the mysteries of God.
If one follows along that path one will find that human wisdom is nonsense to God.

But then again we have the spirit of God to accompany us so we cant know if its self deception or truely from God. We can try it in the church and vote over it as we do, but even then.
We hardly find it in scripture. Mary is mentioned only a few times.

I'm sceptical towards the western idea of doctrinal development and I'd rather see more room left for mysteries. This is both a weakness and a straight as I see it. Because of our ecclesiastical structure we can actually unite against something, like for example abortion.

The head can make a decision and speak on the behalf of the entire church, but then again you'll have the goods and evils of scholasticism too.

If you ask me personally, I'd rather see that we didnt forced the IC as dogma, but rather kept it as one of many opinions. I have a great deal of problems with the papacy as its put fourth by Pastor Aeternus.

I tend to favor Counciliarism in the Orthodox sense of it.

to your first point unfortunately no. Rome has a history of changing their dogmas.

to your point about the IC, we reject it in those very grounds. and it makes no sense theologically to have the IC.

 

[prodromos]

But you do agree that art from the 16th century picturing Mary as dead kind of provides some legitimacy to my claims?
They were accepted through an inquisition and believe me they refused art too...

If you are claiming that Rome used to have Orthodox belief, no one disagrees with that.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I believe that any disagreement that exists between us (TAW and I) is about semantics. In the end of the day I fancy Orthodoxy over novelties too.

 

[narnia59]

as to your first point, how do I know that you aren't incorrect and those who say she didn't die are?

to your second, that implies that fulfilling God's will can be done with or without the removal of the stain of original sin, so again, why didn't He remove everyone's stain?

You can know she is correct because if you read Munificentissimus Deus (The most bountiful God) written by Pope Pius XII that elevated this long held belief to dogma he references her death multiple times.

In the same light of there being confusion, I have heard from different Orthodox over the years that Mary did sin, that she never sinned, and that she was cleansed from sin at the time of the Annunciation. So it happens.

As to why not everyone, not everyone was chosen to be the mother of God.

From the Catholic perspective, every Marian dogma is a reflection of the Incarnation of Christ and directly speaks to either his human or divine nature, sometimes both. In this case, both. We see in the Old Testament what great care was given to prepare the dwelling place of God, perfectly sanctifying it before God dwelt among the people. The preparation of Mary to be a proper dwelling speaks to his divine nature.

In relationship to his human nature, she is his mother, and he is commanded to honor her. That sets her apart from 'everyone'. We are all uniquely and perfectly beloved by God, but that does not mean 'equality' in some kind of democratic sense. The Orthodox believe that Mary's body was assumed into heaven, correct? We could ask the same question about that -- why not everyone?

The creator of the world watched Satan infect his beloved creation with the parasite of sin. He is God, he is to honor his mother, and He does not have to allow her to likewise be infected. He stands between her and Satan with all the vengeance of a devoted son and says "not her". This is a statement about his human nature, the love of a son for his mother.

 

[narnia59]

Immaculate Conception, the Roman Catholic schismatic idea that God made Mary incapable of sin at her birth.

Of all the reasons against this dogma, this is the one that always makes me most scratch my head.

Eve was immaculately conceived and had no ancestral sin. It became clear very quickly that didn't mean that she was incapable of sin.

From the Catholic perspective the dogma of the Immaculate Conception has a direct relationship to Mary as the New Eve.

 

[prodromos]

You can know she is correct because if you read Munificentissimus Deus (The most bountiful God) written by Pope Pius XII that elevated this long held belief to dogma he references her death multiple times.

We know this because we have argued this with Catholics many times. They simply respond that only the last statement of Munificentissimus Deus fits the criteria of an infallible declaration, so they can dismiss the rest of the document as prone to error.

 

[narnia59]

We know this because we have argued this with Catholics many times. They simply respond that only the last statement of Munificentissimus Deus fits the criteria of an infallible declaration, so they can dismiss the rest of the document as prone to error.

Individual Catholics have no teaching authority in the Church and can often be quite wrong. I would assume that would be true of individual Orthodox as well?

 

[prodromos]

Individual Catholics have no teaching authority in the Church and can often be quite wrong. I would assume that would be true of individual Orthodox as well?

These Catholics are wrong because that is what they have been currently taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[Rusviking876]

Of all the reasons against this dogma, this is the one that always makes me most scratch my head.

Eve was immaculately conceived and had no ancestral sin. It became clear very quickly that didn't mean that she was incapable of sin.

From the Catholic perspective the dogma of the Immaculate Conception has a direct relationship to Mary as the New Eve.

Even that doesn’t make sense out of it, as Eve died. Death was introduced into the world after the fall.

To say God made Mary as a pre-fall Eve takes away from her Saintliness. No, Christ was born to a fully human mother who eventually did die physically. Christ is the personal union of man and God. And He was the only one who can ascend as He did.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You can know she is correct because if you read Munificentissimus Deus (The most bountiful God) written by Pope Pius XII that elevated this long held belief to dogma he references her death multiple times.

In the same light of there being confusion, I have heard from different Orthodox over the years that Mary did sin, that she never sinned, and that she was cleansed from sin at the time of the Annunciation. So it happens.

As to why not everyone, not everyone was chosen to be the mother of God.

From the Catholic perspective, every Marian dogma is a reflection of the Incarnation of Christ and directly speaks to either his human or divine nature, sometimes both. In this case, both. We see in the Old Testament what great care was given to prepare the dwelling place of God, perfectly sanctifying it before God dwelt among the people. The preparation of Mary to be a proper dwelling speaks to his divine nature.

In relationship to his human nature, she is his mother, and he is commanded to honor her. That sets her apart from 'everyone'. We are all uniquely and perfectly beloved by God, but that does not mean 'equality' in some kind of democratic sense. The Orthodox believe that Mary's body was assumed into heaven, correct? We could ask the same question about that -- why not everyone?

The creator of the world watched Satan infect his beloved creation with the parasite of sin. He is God, he is to honor his mother, and He does not have to allow her to likewise be infected. He stands between her and Satan with all the vengeance of a devoted son and says "not her". This is a statement about his human nature, the love of a son for his mother.

to your first point, my earlier point that Rome has changed her teaching would still apply, since Pope Pius XII was a more recent Pope.

and Orthodoxy doesn't declare dogma the same way that Rome does, so you do see occasional Fathers with errors.

to your second point, the Temple was still from the fallen nature, and while it (and Mary) were both sanctified by God, there was nothing in the Temple where some aspect of its fallenness was uniquely removed that wasn't removed in the Tabernacle or an earlier Temple. it's a weak analogy.

yes, we do believe she was assumed, but assumed in the same way we all will be. the IC is unique to her alone.

to your final paragraph, to say God says "not her" concerning His mother basically quantifies His love. because He could stand between Satan and us and say, "not any of them."

 

[narnia59]

to your first point, my earlier point that Rome has changed her teaching would still apply, since Pope Pius XII was a more recent Pope.

and Orthodoxy doesn't declare dogma the same way that Rome does, so you do see occasional Fathers with errors.

to your second point, the Temple was still from the fallen nature, and while it (and Mary) were both sanctified by God, there was nothing in the Temple where some aspect of its fallenness was uniquely removed that wasn't removed in the Tabernacle or an earlier Temple. it's a weak analogy.

yes, we do believe she was assumed, but assumed in the same way we all will be. the IC is unique to her alone.

to your final paragraph, to say God says "not her" concerning His mother basically quantifies His love. because He could stand between Satan and us and say, "not any of them."

Does Christ love in his human nature, or only his divine one?

There are many things unique to Mary alone, are there not?

 

[narnia59]

Even that doesn’t make sense out of it, as Eve died. Death was introduced into the world after the fall.

To say God made Mary as a pre-fall Eve takes away from her Saintliness. No, Christ was born to a fully human mother who eventually did die physically. Christ is the personal union of man and God. And He was the only one who can ascend as He did.

And Mary also died.

So if Eve had never sinned she could not have been a saint? I'm trying to wrap my head around that because that doesn't make sense at all to me.

Sin is not an aspect of being fully human. It's a parasite on human nature. Fallen human nature is not the humanity that God created. It's what we became, which made us less than fully human.

And agreed that Christ is the only one who could ascend as he did -- under his own power.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does Christ love in his human nature, or only his divine one?

There are many things unique to Mary alone, are there not?

He loves in both. Persons love, not natures.

not as far as her human nature goes, no. God did nothing to her that isn't open to all of us.

 

[narnia59]

He loves in both. Persons love, not natures.

not as far as her human nature goes, no. God did nothing to her that isn't open to all of us.

It seems to me that God did many things for her that were not open to all of us.

Do you hold the belief that she was sinless?

 

[narnia59]

He loves in both. Persons love, not natures.

not as far as her human nature goes, no. God did nothing to her that isn't open to all of us.

Was there anything at all unique between the relationship of Jesus and Mary?

 

[ArmyMatt]

It seems to me that God did many things for her that were not open to all of us.

Do you hold the belief that she was sinless?

no, He didn't.

and of course we believe she is sinless. but that was because she worked with God's grace more than anyone else. not because God did something to her that isn't open to us all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Was there anything at all unique between the relationship of Jesus and Mary?

yes, but it was how much she loves Him, not how much He loves her since His love is infinite.

 

[narnia59]

no, He didn't.

and of course we believe she is sinless. but that was because she worked with God's grace more than anyone else. not because God did something to her that isn't open to us all.

Choosing her to be the Mother of God is not something unique He didn't do for anyone else?

So are there other people who have existed and remained sinless as well?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Choosing her to be the Mother of God is not something unique He didn't do for anyone else?

So are there other people who have existed and remained sinless as well?

well, yes He chose her for a reason, but He didn't offer her anything that He doesn't offer the rest of us. the reason she is the Mother of God is because she totally said yes to God's will, which was done freely. her uniqueness was her total submission to God.

and yes, every aborted baby is sinless

 

[prodromos]

So are there other people who have existed and remained sinless as well?

St John the Forerunnner is one.