Question about the Traditional/Progressive Split

[tinkerbell]

Okay, I am a little confused about all of this. What constitutes traditional, and what constitutes progressive? Why is there the split? Isn't an Adventist and Adventist? I have picked up from a few of the posts that this is a hot topic in the forums. I'm not trying to start a debate, so please don't argue here. I am just trying to understand what all of it means, where I should post, if I can post in both subforums, and what some of the issues are that caused this separation.

Also, mods - this seems to be a question that many people have when coming to this forum. I was wondering if maybe there could be a sticky thread that addresses this issue.

Thanks guys

*tink*

 

[Sunrunner]

Traditionals recognize the Church's 28 Fundamental Beliefs as valid and the Progressives think the Fundamental Beliefs are open to debate and interpretation.

That's basically the gist of it.

 

[TrustAndObey]

There are a couple of Progressives that post on this board that do not believe the bible is reliable.

There are also some Progressives that seem to believe that EVERYONE will be saved in the end.

The Progressives, as far as I can tell, don't really have a set of fundamental beliefs, and there a lot of differences in viewpoints among them....but they definitely disagree with Traditional Adventists about a lot of things.

The major things like Sabbath we agree on.

I really couldn't tell you all the differences because it varies from Progressive to Progressive, know what I mean?

For instance, I've only seen one Progressive that believes in theistic evolution, etc.

 

[NightEternal]

Here is a link that might help you Tinkerbell:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37217833&postcount=4

We are all Adventists, yes, but there are many subgroups under the Adventist umbrella.

Personally, I fall in to the Evangelical Adventist category.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Also--I have noted that some Progressives do not believe that baptism is part of the salvation plan of God.
Traditionals believe that it is an essential part and then that by immersion.

And to further answer your question, IMHO--NO--All Adventist's are NOT the same. There are some who are considered to be offshoots of the Traditional church.

 

[NightEternal]

Tinkerbell, you may mistakenly think that the split forum went through. It did not. A poll was taken and it was voted down by the majority.

 

[reddogs]

Okay, I am a little confused about all of this. What constitutes traditional, and what constitutes progressive? Why is there the split? Isn't an Adventist and Adventist? I have picked up from a few of the posts that this is a hot topic in the forums. I'm not trying to start a debate, so please don't argue here. I am just trying to understand what all of it means, where I should post, if I can post in both subforums, and what some of the issues are that caused this separation.

Also, mods - this seems to be a question that many people have when coming to this forum. I was wondering if maybe there could be a sticky thread that addresses this issue.

Thanks guys

*tink*

They are basically the same before God, sinners..........

As soon as they figure that out and stop letting Satan divide them, the sooner we can get back to Gods purpose.........

 

[TrustAndObey]

Red, I know you want unity here, but you have to admit that it is very difficult to fellowship when you have to spend a great deal of time not just trying to explain a position, but trying to defend scripture.

There are so many different denominations, but most of them have members that agree that scripture is reliable.

When you can't even stand on that common ground, is it really any wonder that fellowship is so difficult here sometimes?

 

[reddogs]

Red, I know you want unity here, but you have to admit that it is very difficult to fellowship when you have to spend a great deal of time not just trying to explain a position, but trying to defend scripture.

There are so many different denominations, but most of them have members that agree that scripture is reliable.

When you can't even stand on that common ground, is it really any wonder that fellowship is so difficult here sometimes?

Do not worry, as long as they continue with God, He will send the Holy Spirit to give understanding. I feel that at the end we will all have to make a choice to follow Gods truth or what man puts out as truth and it will be made a clear cut choice as we see the events unfold.......

 

[TrustAndObey]

Do not worry, as long as they continue with God, He will send the Holy Spirit to give understanding. I feel that at the end we will all have to make a choice to follow Gods truth or what man puts out as truth and it will be made a clear cut choice as we see the events unfold.......

In the meantime we cannot quit defending scripture...and unfortunately that does cause division. I cannot fellowship with an Adventist that thinks scripture is full of errors any better than I can fellowship with a Baptist that thinks it's not but has a totally different interpretation.

You can't have a fellowship unless all the fellows are on the same ship.

You can love them though and pray for them. That, I always do.

 

[NightEternal]

It really chafes me that I spent almost half an hour putting that list of different Adventists together and people just wave it away in a matter of seconds with the claim that there isn't and should not be different segments of SDA's.

There most certainly is and there most certainly should be. It is not a bad thing. Indeed, it is necessary. No one says fellowship does not happen between the groups, but you will never get the whole corporate Adventist world to agree and unite under one style of Adventism. It is never, ever going to happen, so why not just work within the existing groups? Red, you really need to give up this futile struggle to unite.

I have been in the church for over 20 years, and I am telling you, that list is dead-on accurate. In fact, there are even more sub-groups I did not list.

Red, please stop attributing these divisions to the work of Satan. It is not a bad thing to have different schools of thought in Adventism. It happens in many denomnations, the Jews included.

If you were honest with me, you would admit that you also find yourself pre-dominately in one of those groups I listed.

There are so many different denominations, but most of them have members that agree that scripture is reliable.

When you can't even stand on that common ground, is it really any wonder that fellowship is so difficult here sometimes?

Trust, this is like the third time I have heard you say this. It's obviously something that is really sticking in your craw.

Actually, make that four. You asked me if Evangelicals believed in the Word of God for some reason.

Where did this exchange transpire and who were the ones who denied Scripture? Can you post the link? I would like to read the context of what they said and make my own determination.

As for the off-shoot comment.....

Oh forget it. Never mind. It's obvious some people will continually show disrespect to those who are still in the mainline church but think differently than they do no matter what.

 

[NightEternal]

I cannot fellowship with an Adventist that thinks scripture is full of errors any better than I can fellowship with a Baptist that thinks it's not but has a totally different interpretation.

Trust, how can you get after Ice for saying he did not consider OnTheDL a brother, and then make a statement like this?

I do not believe the Bible is inerrant. Infallible in matters of faith and salvation, yes. God's revealed intentions, concepts filtered through mortal human beings, yes. But not inerrant.

Thought inspiration does not work like that. Adventists have never held to the verbal inspiration of the Bible. And just recently they have rejected that concept for EGW as well.

Does this mean you now cannot fellowship with me either?

 

[reddogs]

In the meantime we cannot quit defending scripture...and unfortunately that does cause division. I cannot fellowship with an Adventist that thinks scripture is full of errors any better than I can fellowship with a Baptist that thinks it's not but has a totally different interpretation.

You can't have a fellowship unless all the fellows are on the same ship.

You can love them though and pray for them. That, I always do.

TrustandObey,

Have faith, God defends His truth and uses those that He choses to do it. Study and pray that you may be a instrument of God, given the gift of teaching, preaching and telling His truth so clearly that others can gain understanding as the Spirit reaches their hearts. Follow what Christ said and that is to love one another and wait for the Holy Spirit to give you the right words to witness. Remember in the lesson when Rachel tried to "help" God and trick Issac into giving Jacob the blessing of the birthright, it caused a great division in the family and turned brother against brother, and Jacob still got the 'real blessing' from Issac of Gods blessing of a great nation...

Just study Gods truths and pray that the Spirit will give you the words that are needed at the time they are needed and God will bless your faith.....

I know its hard, as I am a very 'hot tempered' Latin that God is teaching patience, using kindness and loving others...
Red

 

[reddogs]

It really chafes me that I spent almost half an hour putting that list of different Adventists together and people just wave it away in a matter of seconds with the claim that there isn't and should not be different segments of SDA's.

There most certainly is and there most certainly should be. It is not a bad thing. Indeed, it is necessary. No one says fellowship does not happen between the groups, but you will never get the whole corporate Adventist world to agree and unite under one style of Adventism. It is never, ever going to happen, so why not just work within the existing groups? Red, you really need to give up this futile struggle to unite.

I have been in the church for over 20 years, and I am telling you, that list is dead-on accurate. In fact, there are even more sub-groups I did not list.

Red, please stop attributing these divisions to the work of Satan. It is not a bad thing to have different schools of thought in Adventism. It happens in many denomnations, the Jews included.

If you were honest with me, you would admit that you also find yourself pre-dominately in one of those groups I listed.



Trust, this is like the third time I have heard you say this. It's obviously something that is really sticking in your craw.

Actually, make that four. You asked me if Evangelicals believed in the Word of God for some reason.

Where did this exchange transpire and who were the ones who denied Scripture? Can you post the link? I would like to read the context of what they said and make my own determination.

As for the off-shoot comment.....

Oh forget it. Never mind. It's obvious some people will continually show disrespect to those who are still in the mainline church but think differently than they do no matter what.

Night,

Every Adventist thinks differently than every other Adventist, yet somehow God still accepts us according to our understanding......I am not the same as any other Adventist, yet I am Adventist....... dont let Satan divide, let God unite us in truth as I believe He will do in the end......

 

[TrustAndObey]

It really chafes me that I spent almost half an hour putting that list of different Adventists together and people just wave it away in a matter of seconds with the claim that there isn't and should not be different segments of SDA's.

Depending on where the chafe is, I could suggest an ointment. The most potent being Get Over It™ creme by Johnson and Johnson....sold in most retail stores.



You know I'm kidding, but I did read your list, and it doesn't even begin to cover all the differences in beliefs I see on this board.

I have been in the church for over 20 years, and I am telling you, that list is dead-on accurate. In fact, there are even more sub-groups I did not list.

EXACTLY!

Trust, this is like the third time I have heard you say this. It's obviously something that is really sticking in your craw.

Actually, make that four. You asked me if Evangelicals believed in the Word of God for some reason.

Where did this exchange transpire and who were the ones who denied Scripture? Can you post the link? I would like to read the context of what they said and make my own determination.

I'm starting to wonder if you and I frequent the same forum Night. You haven't seen the comments about "I don't put my faith in well-meaning men that erred when writing down God's inspired words?"

From now on I'll give a subtle signal like "<whoop whoop>" to point them out. That'll be our little secret.

As for the off-shoot comment.....

Oh forget it. Never mind. It's obvious some people will continually show disrespect to those who are still in the mainline church but think differently than they do no matter what.

Come on Night, it's a true statement. You don't think there'd be actual "Progressive" Adventist church BUILDINGS if people could organize them? You bet there would be, but there isn't enough of them to do that yet....so they attend the mainline churches.

It's not a statement made for attack, it's just a true observation that there are offshoots to the original Adventist message...and some of them do break away and form their own churches. Just because some haven't yet doesn't mean they're any less of an offshoot and/or that they teach a different message.

It's not an insult, it's just the truth. If you hadn't found an Evangelical Adventist church you'd be in the same boat, right?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Trust, how can you get after Ice for saying he did not consider OnTheDL a brother, and then make a statement like this?

I do not believe the Bible is inerrant. Infallible in matters of faith and salvation, yes. God's revealed intentions, concepts filtered through mortal human beings, yes. But not inerrant.

Thought inspiration does not work like that. Adventists have never held to the verbal inspiration of the Bible. And just recently they have rejected that concept for EGW as well.

Does this mean you now cannot fellowship with me either?

I can fellowship with you just fine, but from some of the things I've seen you say, I do not consider you a teacher. I wouldn't let you teach me anything.

I never rely on anything other people say anyway. I always study it out for myself.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

What?

Come on Night, it's a true statement. You don't think there'd be actual "Progressive" Adventist church BUILDINGS if people could organize them? You bet there would be, but there isn't enough of them to do that yet....so they attend the mainline churches.

It's not an insult, it's just the truth. If you hadn't found an Evangelical Adventist church you'd be in the same boat, right?

So there aren't any progressive Adventist Church Buildings yet Night had found one

I can fellowship with you just fine, but from some of the things I've seen you say, I do not consider you a teacher. I wouldn't let you teach me anything.

This is a horrible attitude which denies that there are actually people we can learn something from no matter who they are.

There is actually an excellent article in the Adventist World for August 2007 (That is the Adventist Review that gets sent to every SDA Member, it does not appear to have any web presence however)

The Article "With All Your Mind Challenges for the Adventist Intellectual" the author Reiner Bruinsma says:

How do we serve God with our entire mind? First, we should underscore the need for humility. When you first start down the academic path you may experience a sense of elation, maybe even superiority. You think you know so much more than other people do. This early stage in the process of acquiring knowledge is full of danger. But eventually you begin to realize you do know everything. In fact, you are soon overwhelmed by the realization of how much more you need to learn and how little, in fact, you do know--even in your own discipline. So every reason exists to remain humble and avoid any arrogance.

You should also keep on learning after you have earned a degree or diploma. And not only from books but also from experiences, from life, from all kinds of people--colleagues, peers, and also "common" folk. Appreciate their wisdom and insights. An Adventist intellectual can learn a lot from many of the people in the church who have not had the privilege of attending a university. .. page 22

 

[djconklin]

So there aren't any progressive Adventist Church Buildings yet Night had found one

Hmmm, there aren't any but he found one. Does anyone else see the problem here?

but there isn't enough of them to do that yet....

Given that some feel they are the only real and true progressive that means he could meet in a closet!

 

[moicherie]

From the little I've read Traditionals see Progressive as the enemy, Progressives see Traditionals as Adventists with a different point of view in some aspects of Adventism. The latter view is more civilised to take.

 

[djconklin]

From the little I've read Traditionals see Progressive as the enemy,

Well, what would you call someone who believes that we evolved, takes a low view of Scripture and distorts what you say? And that's just for starters.

Progressives don't see traditionals as simply having a different view--they see us was warped and in need of serious psychiactric care (they are practicing medicine without a license!).