Question about the flood.

[AV1611VET]

Could you please post the scripture stating that there were other people alive on Earth when Cain killed Abel? I'd love to see that.

CoderHead, Adam was 130 years old when Seth, Cain's replacement, was born.

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

That means 6 generations were on the earth when Cain killed Abel.

 

[marktheblake]

The statement, "you're making things up" actually gave me a good laugh.

You are deliberately misinterpreting what i have said. Genesis does not tell us everything, therefore when you think you see a contradiction, you then examine the possibilities that explains them. Then, check these possibilities for contradictions, if yes, cross them out, if no, then they remain possibilities to harmonise the supposed contradiction.

The fact that you rely on the Bible for your facts but then ignore or reinterpret it when a glaring contradiction is pointed out is humorous,

However what you are doing is inventing a possibility and then claiming it is a contradiction, that doesnt work, regardless of whether you are looking at Genesis, Hamlet, or Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy.

There it is again. The scripture tells us all humanity descended from Adam and Eve. So when Cain killed Abel, there were only Adam, Eve, Cain, and (possibly) a few other siblings not mentioned for reasons unknown.

They were not mentioned because they were not important.

Adam and Eve were 130 years old when Seth was born. How many kids do you think its potentially possible they had in that time, a few, tens, and how many generations?

So when Cain says he's afraid of the people who will kill him because of his curse, about whom would he be talking?

You just mentioned them, so why ask?

...or a much, much worse life according to your doctrine.

not for those poor innocent babies you people cry about so much.

 

[marktheblake]

CoderHead, Adam was 130 years old when Seth, Cain's replacement, was born.That means 6 generations were on the earth when Cain killed Abel.

I dont know if we can claim that as an absolute? its possible though.

We do not know when they were booted out of the Garden, nor do we know when Cain/Abel were born except that they are likely adults at the time of the murder, and seems apparent that Seth was the next son to be born after that. So safe to say that Cain killed Abel with Adam in his 120's

Are you any good at maths? I cant get my head around this sort of math.

Potentially if there was no death, what would the population be if A&E had 10 kids, which is 5 couples, and each couple had 10 kids and so on, for 6 generations?

 

[AV1611VET]

I dont know if we can claim that as an absolute? its possible though.

We do not know when they were booted out of the Garden, nor do we know when Cain/Abel were born except that they are likely adults at the time of the murder, and seems apparent that Seth was the next son to be born after that. So safe to say that Cain killed Abel with Adam in his 120's

Are you any good at maths? I cant get my head around this sort of math.

Potentially if there was no death, what would the population be if A&E had 10 kids, which is 5 couples, and each couple had 10 kids and so on, for 6 generations?

I use the Scofield Reference Bible as my source for dating things when I discuss theology.

Scofield has the Fall occurring one year after the Creation --- so that's what I use.

I believe the answer to your math is 5[sup]6[/sup] or a population of 15,625!

More than enough for Cain to choose a wife, eh?

 

[CoderHead]

CoderHead, Adam was 130 years old when Seth, Cain's replacement, was born.That means 6 generations were on the earth when Cain killed Abel.

Adam and Eve were 130 years old when Seth was born. How many kids do you think its potentially possible they had in that time, a few, tens, and how many generations?

But it doesn't say how old Adam was when Cain and Abel were born. He could have been 100 by the time that happened. You don't even know how long they walked around in the Garden before they were cast out.

Genesis 4:1-8 says Cain and Abel were born and then Cain killed Abel. They were obviously at least young men when this happened, so at best we can assume there was one generation of other offspring present since it was not said that either Cain or Abel had taken a wife or borne any children. That's a very small number of people (relatives) from which to fear death.

Finally, in Genesis 4:25 Adam and Eve have another child, Seth. And Adam, at this point, is 130 years old. This says absolutely nothing about how many generations of people were on the Earth at the time of Abel's death. You're inferring a lot from a little. I'm trying not to inject personal opinion disguised as knowledge into this discussion.

You are deliberately misinterpreting what i have said. Genesis does not tell us everything, therefore when you think you see a contradiction, you then examine the possibilities that explains them. Then, check these possibilities for contradictions, if yes, cross them out, if no, then they remain possibilities to harmonise the supposed contradiction.

Oh, I see. God's perfect, holy Word only gives us sketchy details with which we are to derive our own conclusions, however contradictory they may be. Now I see how Christianity has so many Bible versions, denominations, and disparate doctrines. Thanks for clearing that up.

They were not mentioned because they were not important.

Yet, later on when it talks about people marrying people and having children, it seems of vital importance to the author to name hundreds of names. They're not important? They're the very first people inhabiting this planet and propagating the species!

 

[AV1611VET]

But it doesn't say how old Adam was when Cain and Abel were born.

My figure (15,625) is based on the maximum number of children that could have been produced from six generations producing five couples --- (if I'm using the right formula).

God told Adam and Eve to 'be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth' --- I find it hard to believe they waited 100 years to begin.

 

[CoderHead]

My figure (15,625) is based on the maximum number of children that could have been produced from six generations producing five couples --- (if I'm using the right formula).

God told Adam and Eve to 'be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth' --- I find it hard to believe they waited 100 years to begin.

Now I'm pretty sure that you're intentionally being obtuse.

1. How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden prior to being expelled?
2. How old were Adam and Eve when Cain and Abel were born?
3. How old were Cain and Abel when Abel was killed?

Answer those questions, including your justification for the answers, and I'll consider your off-the-cuff number of offspring. Like I said, for all any of you know, Adam and Eve could have walked with God in the Garden for 100 years before they were expelled and only afterward does the Bible say they had offspring.

Furthermore, if you're assuming that they had offspring while still in the Garden, how horrible would it have been of God to have expelled all of them from the Garden when only Adam and Eve disobeyed Him? Or are you pretty certain their original, sinless children are still living in the Garden somewhere? Again, the claim that Adam and Eve's original offspring who began the population of the planet aren't important is ludicrous. It would at least make the story more intelligible.

 

[Alunyel]

My figure (15,625) is based on the maximum number of children that could have been produced from six generations producing five couples --- (if I'm using the right formula).

God told Adam and Eve to 'be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth' --- I find it hard to believe they waited 100 years to begin.

That's an awful lot of people for such a limited gene pool...

 

[HSC]

That's an awful lot of people for such a limited gene pool...

God thought it better that people did not have genes then as it would only serve to confuse things.

 

[Alunyel]

God thought it better that people did not have genes then as it would only serve to confuse things.

Are you serious?

Do you even know what genes are?

That's like saying "In 1940, cars didn't have wheels, as they would only serve to confuse things.".

 

[pgp_protector]

God thought it better that people did not have genes then as it would only serve to confuse things.

This has to be a joke

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

God thought it better that people did not have jeans* then as it would only serve to confuse things.

*fixed

 

[HSC]

Are you serious?

Do you even know what genes are?

That's like saying "In 1940, cars didn't have wheels, as they would only serve to confuse things.".

No im not serious, but the creationists think that god knew what he was doing when he created mankind, well the gene pool proves that either god created man but forgot about the small gene pool or god did not create man, they cant have it both ways, they will but it wont make it right, but when did religion ever care about right?
The worlds population from Noah and his offsprings is the craziest thing ever, it makes the Mormon teachings sound almost believable.

 

[marktheblake]

Scofield has the Fall occurring one year after the Creation --- so that's what I use.

Interesting, I haven't heard of Schofield bible before, so I had a look, I couldn't find this reference though. I would like to know his underlying reasons for declaring this.

Though it doesn't make sense to me that they might have been in the Garden for a long time, my gut feeling is that Adam and Eve didn't take long to screw up at all.

I believe the answer to your math is 5[sup]6[/sup] or a population of 15,625!

Sounds plausable as the potential maximum, the truth is the answer is somewhere between 4 and 15625

More than enough for Cain to choose a wife, eh?

and a heap of people to be afraid of!

 

[marktheblake]

But it doesn't say how old Adam was when Cain and Abel were born. He could have been 100 by the time that happened. You don't even know how long they walked around in the Garden before they were cast out.

I said exactly this two posts before yours. So you repeat what I say and then appear to claim it as your own argument.

Obviously I understand that point, I wouldnt have said it otherwise

I'm trying not to inject personal opinion disguised as knowledge into this discussion.

Yes you are, you are injecting your personal opinion to claim that there were other people alive on earth at the time unrelated to Adam and Eve that would want to kill Cain and therefore attributing a major discrepancy to the Creation account, yet there is no textual support for this personal opinion of yours. (If that is not your claim, please ignore all of this post and restate it succintly and we start again!)

Cain was afraid that 'anyone' would kill him. The inference from that is that he thought that everyone would want to kill him. It was his own family that he is thinking of whether that be Adam himself, or any existing and future generations.

Oh, I see. God's perfect, holy Word only gives us sketchy details with which we are to derive our own conclusions, however contradictory they may be.

Hermeneutics is not deriving our own conclusions, and there are no contradictions here. Only you are enforcing a contradiction on the text in this case.

Yet, later on when it talks about people marrying people and having children, it seems of vital importance to the author to name hundreds of names. They're not important? They're the very first people inhabiting this planet and propagating the species!

Sorry for the bad wording, I shall restate for clarity. What is recorded in the scripture is important for us to know. What is not recorded is not important for us to know. Honestly, I would have loved to know more about Adam, and his family, what they did, how the lived, what they invented. As fascinating as these things may be, they do not have any relevance to us in understanding the Gods purpose for our life. There is only 3 chapters devoted to the "beginning" the rest is dedicated to redemption, and it is the latter that is the important part.

Furthermore, if you're assuming that they had offspring while still in the Garden, how horrible would it have been of God to have expelled all of them from the Garden when only Adam and Eve disobeyed Him?

I do not see that he is saying Adam and Eve had children in the garden, though, childbirth was not a new concept to them, see Gen 3:16. In any case if you are right, then regardless, all of mankind are responsible for the consequences of their actions. Our children reap the benefits of our good works and suffer from the impact of our bad. If that was never the case, then nobody would have to be responsible for their actions, and they could do whatever they liked.

 

[Soul Searcher]

CoderHead, Adam was 130 years old when Seth, Cain's replacement, was born.That means 6 generations were on the earth when Cain killed Abel.

How do you get that? I thought you were a "literalist" According to the bible Seth was the 3rd son with as of yet no sisters. There were a total of 2 generations and a total of 4 people on earth if you understand it "literally". Seems like your views are only literal when it suits your arguement.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Also wondering how you get 6 generations in 130 years seeing as how the youngest man mentioned there was 65 years old when he had his son most are closer to 100, If Adam was 65 when Cain was born and Cain was 65 when Enoch was born that is 130 years already. Not to mention that it tells us Enoch was born after Cain killed Able so the 6 generators is just pulled out of thin air with no bible support. Think about it.

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you get that?

130 years / 1 generation every 20 years = 6.5 generations.

I thought you were a "literalist"

Correct.

According to the bible Seth was the 3rd son with as of yet no sisters.

Show me, please.

Remember: this is the line of Christ --- or what some call: "The Scarlet Thread."

Other sons would not have to be mentioned if they were not in the Royal Line.

There were a total of 2 generations and a total of 4 people on earth if you understand it "literally".

I disagree.

Like I said, they were told to be fruitful and multiply --- and I can't imaging they planning children every 130 years or so apart.

 

[AV1611VET]

Also wondering how you get 6 generations in 130 years seeing as how the youngest man mentioned there was 65 years old when he had his son most are closer to 100, If Adam was 65 when Cain was born and Cain was 65 when Enoch was born that is 130 years already. Not to mention that it tells us Enoch was born after Cain killed Able so the 6 generators is just pulled out of thin air with no bible support. Think about it.

Again --- not if we are dealing with one specific line.

I am my mother and father's first son --- I am also my mother's seventh son.

Cain and Abel may even have been twins.

Notice also the first words in Genesis 4:3 ---

And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

That 'process of time' was about 130 years, and in that time, Adam and Eve, I'm sure, had many, many other children.

Look at Genesis 5.

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Is Seth Adam's first son, as this passage seems to imply?

Of course not --- Adam had other sons before Seth --- two mentioned by name.

...so the 6 generators is just pulled out of thin air with no bible support. Think about it.

Seems like your views are only literal when it suits your arguement.

Could we please dispense with the premature assumptions?