Question about Islamic Belief

[The Midge]

we already bow down our heads down to the ground in submission to the lord of Jesus(pbuh), your lord, and our lord, Allah, or God, or YHWH, whatever name you call him, 64 times per day in humility and sincerity.

When Jesus(pbuh) returns he will be the imam of all the believers, and he will lead us in prayer and submission to the One Creator, Allah.

Yet you place Muhammads teaching above those of the King of Kings? Don't you see something wrong in this?

 

[mujahid263]

Yet you place Muhammads teaching above those of the King of Kings? Don't you see something wrong in this?

The king of kings in the eyes of Muslims is Allah(swt), and Muhammad(saw), being Allah's messenger gave Allah's (swt) teaching. So no,we don't

 

[Islam_mulia]

Yes, I am intrigued by the Bible statement of 'looking from afar'. Except for John's narration (which was written much later), none of the synoptic Gospel writers mentioned Mary was beside him at the cross. In fact, 'looking from afar' and being 'beside him' are mutually exclusive. It is even more amazing that people looking from afar could hear the conversations of Jesus with the other crucified convicts at Golgotha.If you saw the Passion of Christ, you would have seen that 'Jesus' was whipped so badly you could hardly recognised him.

After saying all this, I am not saying there was no crucifixion. Someone or more than one persons were crucified, but according to the Quran it was not Jesus.

Now, Monica would use the Bible and say that all the Bible writers say that Jesus was crucified. But Monica was basically using only the 'canonical' gospels. There were also many other 'hidden' gospels or apocryphals and these books may say something different. I am not saying the apocryphals are all true, but it is worthwhile to see what early chrsitians think of the crucifixion.

I find it rather strange that the body has 'disappeared'. There are many arguments among Christians as to whether the 'resurrection' was 'physical' or 'spiritual'. Monica said "Jesus died and was resurrected with a new imperishable body". This 'imperishable body' should be spiritual as Monica also quoted:

"The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." 1 Cor. 15:42-44

A 'spiritual body' does not "have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
eat and drink, or dressed like a gardener (he is supposed to be raised in glory, the Prince of Peace?).

salam

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Yes, I am intrigued by the Bible statement of 'looking from afar'. Except for John's narration (which was written much later), none of the synoptic Gospel writers mentioned Mary was beside him at the cross. In fact, 'looking from afar' and being 'beside him' are mutually exclusive.

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. There were about 3 hours between the nailing to the cross and the giving up of His spirit. During that time the women could be both at a distance and beside him at different times.

It is even more amazing that people looking from afar could hear the conversations of Jesus with the other crucified convicts at Golgotha.

It seems that you are asuming that the women were the only witnesses whose testimony is included in the account. While Jesus was on the cross, we know that people came to believe in Him: the thief, the centurion and those with him. We know that the thief went into paradise but the soldiers were left to testify to what they had seen and heard

When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!” Matt 27:42

The soldiers who guarded Jesus would have seen and heard everything.

If you saw the Passion of Christ, you would have seen that 'Jesus' was whipped so badly you could hardly recognised him.

I did not see Mel Gibson's The Passion because it seemed to dwell on aspects of the account that the gospels themselves describe with a light touch, such as the beating. I am not saying that the movie was wrong or bad; just that it is an interpretation of the events.

There were also many other 'hidden' gospels or apocryphals and these books may say something different. I am not saying the apocryphals are all true, but it is worthwhile to see what early chrsitians think of the crucifixion.

Yes, I am aware that there are other 'gospels.' In fact it is mentioned in the canonical NT itself

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us...Luke 1:1

But the canonization of the NT is part of the work of the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth. We trust that God has answered Jesus' request that He send the Holy Spirit to remind the witnesses of everything. And we further believe that the Holy Spirit guided the Church in deciding which Gospel accounts should be included and which should be left out.

I find it rather strange that the body has 'disappeared'.

Not simply 'disappeared' but ascended into heaven. And it is our faith that once we are resurrected from the dead we will ascend to heaven as well.

A 'spiritual body' does not "have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” eat and drink, or dressed like a gardener (he is supposed to be raised in glory, the Prince of Peace?).

The phrase 'spiritual body' is a clue in itself. In our limited human perspective it seems like an oxymoron: spiritual body? But this body is in fact a new creation that we cannot imagine. A body without death and disease, a body with out the limitations of being earthbound

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another... The first man [Adam]was of the dust of the earth, the second man [Christ; the new Adam] from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. --1 Cor 15

This new body that Christ has (and that we will have) can eat and drink. In fact the Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a feast several time in the NT

Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ ” Revelation 19:9

with wine to drink

“I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.” --Mark 14:25

and fruit to eat

"On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. --Revelation 22:2"

Blessings!
Monica

PS: One last point--the passage does not say He was dressed like a gardner but that Mary mistook Him for a gardener.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Jesus prayed to God to help him from death. God heard his prayers and he was saved.

Now, where do I get this story?

From the Bible, of course:

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. (Hebrews 5:7)

salam

 

[The Midge]

Jesus prayed to God to help him from death. God heard his prayers and he was saved.

Now, where do I get this story?

From the Bible, of course:

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. (Hebrews 5:7)

salam

If you read the pasages from the gethsemeny texts you would also know that Jesus asked that the cup be taken away from him but also Not my will but Thy will be done. (see John) Of course prayer is not just about getting what we want but listening to God as well, discouvering His will and what He would have us do in difficult cirumstances. Jesus' prayer was answered and he answered His Fathers call by doing His will.

You need to read all the Bible.

 

[Islam_mulia]

In Islamic context, Jesus used the words, "Insya Allah" (If God Wills).

Hence, in the context of Hebrews 5:7, Jesus prayed earnestly for God to help him and saved him from his enemies if God so wills it. Well, God heard his prayers and Wills it that he be saved. (he was heard for his godly fear).

Why 'godly fear' if he was really God?

salam

 

[Monica child of God 1]

In order to use that sliver of a verse to establish your postion, you would have to negate the rest of the book of Hebrews which establishes Jesus' as God the Son and one with the Father

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." Hebrews 1:3

His sacrifice that shed His blood

"[Christ] entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" Hebrews 9:12-15

And His ascension into heaven

"After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:3

But to address your observations...

Hence, in the context of Hebrews 5:7, Jesus prayed earnestly for God to help him and saved him from his enemies if God so wills it. Well, God heard his prayers and Wills it that he be saved. (he was heard for his godly fear).

Yes, God heard His prayers but that does not mean that God "saved" him in the way that you conclude. Jesus prays that God's will be done and we know what God's will was from Isaiah's prophecy:

"Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer...After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied;...my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." --Isaiah 53:10-11

It was was God's will for Jesus to suffer, bearing the iniquities of man, so that we could be reconciled. It is also amazing to see the resurrection prophesied in this verse.

Who was Jesus' real enemy? Certainly not the people who He willingly put His life in the hands of

'Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”' Matthew 26:50-54

but the one whose head He was about to crush

"And I will put enmity between you [satan] and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." --Genesis 3:15

Remember after Jesus fasted in the desert: "When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time. Luke 4:13

And so God saved Jesus from his dread of his approaching death, most likely exacerbated by the devil's tempting by sending an angel to strengthen Him in his humanity

"An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. Luke 22:43

Why 'godly fear' if he was really God?

Because He was also fully human.

"[Christ]Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death–even death on a cross!" --Philipians 2:6-8

This is the mystery of the Incarnation: Jesus is both fully God and fully man. No man looks forward to mocking, scourging and death on a cross. But because His humanity was perfect, not tainted by sin, He submitted to God's will (yes Christian's believe in submission to God's will!). "Godly fear" when mature is not being 'afraid of God' but having a reverence for God above all else. That is what Jesus displayed in the garden of Gethsemane.

Blessings!
Monica

 

[Buccaneer]

Some say that He was switched with judas which enabled him to be seen walking around after his alleged Crucifixion. But why is it also reported they examined the holes in his hands, feet, and side?

 

[Green Man]

I beleive someone was crucified in Jesus' place.

And I'm sure with regard to logic and science a scientist would agree with me that the man who met so many people after being crucified had never been crucified.

Please read this nice lil book by respected scholar Sheikh Ahmad Deedat, its called Crucifixtion or cruci-fiction. As soons I get 15 post count, I'll post it inshaAllah. Unless someone beats me to it of course.

Then please explain the holes in his hands and feet,and the gash in his side.Explain how his own mother was deceived into this little charade.Explain how the roman soldiers watching him die were fooled.Explain how his disciples were fooled after the resurrection alon g with all the other eyewitnesses and people that knew him.

 

[Green Man]

According to Islam, another person was crucified in Jesus' place. If this is the case then the person must've looked like Jesus at that time, also what Quran agrees with. So if I saw a man identical to Jesus being crucified in front of me, I would obviously think it is Jesus.

Also, there is many historians who disagree with the stories attributed to Jesus, and I recall after the Passion of Christ came that a Jewish Rabbi near the are where I was at the time made a certain theory. He claimed Jesus wasn't crucified, instead he was thrown down stairs (or some other form of murder). He even explained how it matched with historical evidence of tradition.

If Jesus wasn't crucified on that day and it was someone else, "eloi eloi lama sabatchamti"* and the fact that Jesus later appeared would make sense. BTW, for those who don't know, "Eloi Eloi lama Sabatchamti"* was what the man on the cross was said to have uttered. It means "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

*I'm recalling this Arhamaic from memory so I'm not sure its correct




This would lead me to beleive Jesus was stoned not crucified?

How could anyone look enough like Jesus to fool his own mother?

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Explain how his own mother was deceived into this little charade.

Exactly!

"Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne?" Isaiah 49:15

 

[peaceful soul]

Furthermore, if the centurions did not make sure that the person was dead, they would also face death. They had an incentive to make sure that Jesus was actually dead.

Note: You (plural) have done an excellent job of using comon logic and scripture to illustrate your points. I hope that the Muslims will apply critical thinking to what you have presented and consider that Jesus may have actually did what He said that He would do as per Bible.

 

[The Midge]

How could anyone look enough like Jesus to fool his own mother?

A miraculous face lift no less.

 

[mujahid263]

Then please explain the holes in his hands and feet,and the gash in his side.Explain how his own mother was deceived into this little charade.Explain how the roman soldiers watching him die were fooled.Explain how his disciples were fooled after the resurrection alon g with all the other eyewitnesses and people that knew him.

The holes in his hands and feet? I sure as Hell don't see them. As for a Biblical account of anything, why should a beleive something riddled with holes and contradictions as God's word?

As for his mother, if God can give her a child without any man having sex with her then why can't God make a man look just exactly like her son?

His mother seems to have also been a decent author by the way, see.

Roman soldiers saw a man just looking just like Jesus die, if I'd seen that I would've thought the same thing based on observation and interpretation of observation.

Once again, a man who looks just like another man, literally just like him, can fool plenty of people.


Now please read this

" How could anyone look enough like Jesus to fool his own mother?"

See this X, now look at this one: X.

Are they the same? Do they look the same?

 

[markie4u2001]

As far as I have known, there is no credible historical account of Jesus crucifixion. Many 'modern' scholars in fact deny the existence of Jesus. Tell me how I can be wrong here.

There are some Islamic scholars who think Mohammed wrote the Koran too, it just depends on which scholars you're talking about.

 

[peaceful soul]

The holes in his hands and feet? I sure as Hell don't see them. As for a Biblical account of anything, why should a beleive something riddled with holes and contradictions as God's word?

As for his mother, if God can give her a child without any man having sex with her then why can't God make a man look just exactly like her son?

His mother seems to have also been a decent author by the way, see.

Roman soldiers saw a man just looking just like Jesus die, if I'd seen that I would've thought the same thing based on observation and interpretation of observation.

Once again, a man who looks just like another man, literally just like him, can fool plenty of people.


Now please read this

" How could anyone look enough like Jesus to fool his own mother?"

See this X, now look at this one: X.

Are they the same? Do they look the same?

You are trying to manufacture something to avoid realizing that what you have been presented with is very plausible. The replacement theory is something that Hollywood would come up with - not God. God has integrity - unlike man often does not. As I have stated previously, God would be eternally accountable for allowing such a hoax. He would have to let all Christians into heaven just because they were lead to believe in something that He allowed to go uncorrected for over 500 years. You are not realizing that if God is the same one for both Islam and Christianity, His sovereignity and integrity has gone down the drain.

In your example of using x, they are both x but they are distinct and that makes them different. Even if Jesus was substituted, someone still died as a sacrafice. Are you willing to look at the implications of that as well?

I'm sure that you know that your 1st source is an heretical document and your second one is even worse. It is from a person who knows very little about true Christianity. Deedat's popularity arises from appealing to emotions, feelings, and psychology to arouse one to agreement rather than with solid facts. To put it mildly, he is very ignorant of Christianity.

I'm testing your logic here: You said that if God can use a virign birth to bring about Jesus, why can't He likewise make a body double of Him in the crucifixion? Let's turn this around now. If God can deceive Christians and Jews in that way, what certainity would you have that God gave the Qu'ran to Mohammad and that it is the literal word of God? Realize that you are incriminating yourself by not being consistent with your idea of God' integrity.

 

[Eternal_Believer]

The muslims are presenting quite seemingly strong arguments but really they dont have ears to hear.

Tell you what.

I dont have time now to type everything out but i will present some FACTS from the INFALLIBLE Bible to CAST DOWN your arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

If you want to say the Bible is corrupt PROVE IT!

Firstly i want to address some things you muslims said.

You took a verse from the Book of Hebrews 5:7.

Look at Hebrews 5:8 then.
Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

WHAT DID HE SUFFER?
THE CRUCIFIXION!!!!!!
And earlier on one of you quoted that he said Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani.
YOU KNOW WHY GOD FORSOOKED HIM?(not shouting btw making a point loudly)
BECAUSE HE BECAME SIN!!!!! He who knew no Sin BECAME SIN for us. Yes even U muslims.
AND not for the FACT OF THE SINS WE COMMITTED BUT THAT OUR NATURES WERE INCLINED TO SIN.
David says in Psalm 51:5 Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Its more of the SIN NATURE IN US that required more than the Blood of bulls to cleanse!
It required the Blood of God himself to CLEANSE our SIN NATURE that will lead to all sorts of Sin.
It doesnt mean that if you havent committed adultery means you are clean of that. But IN YOU is the potential to COMMIT ADULTERY. Thats the uncleaness that David asks to BLOT OUT in Pslams 51:1.

It isnt some simple matter of God looking at the book and say ok you made a slight error, your forgiven.
NO BUT JUDGEMENT IS TO BE MET OUT ON ALL SINNERS. Thus the reason why everyone who believes in jesus Christ can be redeemed is because His Righteous Blood Cleanses us. Any Human who accepts His Gift will receive it.

But you muslims dont.


Now i ask you on the credibility on the Quran and muhammad.
Muhammad had a series of revelation which he claimed to be from God.
And he preaches the head of the matter thing.
Something about pillar and jihad etc.

But lets look at the rewards for Jihad.

SEVENTY WIVES?????? THATS ADULTERY CONTRARY TO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WHICH i hear quran agrees with first 5 book from the OT?

Ok i continue this another time GTG now

 

[Monica child of God 1]

As for his mother, if God can give her a child without any man having sex with her then why can't God make a man look just exactly like her son?

"God is not a man, that he should lie" --Numbers 23:19

Blessings,
Monica

 

[Muslim]

The muslims are presenting quite seemingly strong arguments but really they dont have ears to hear.

Tell you what.

I dont have time now to type everything out but i will present some FACTS from the INFALLIBLE Bible to CAST DOWN your arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

If you want to say the Bible is corrupt PROVE IT!

Firstly i want to address some things you muslims said.

You took a verse from the Book of Hebrews 5:7.

Look at Hebrews 5:8 then.
Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

WHAT DID HE SUFFER?
THE CRUCIFIXION!!!!!!
And earlier on one of you quoted that he said Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani.
YOU KNOW WHY GOD FORSOOKED HIM?(not shouting btw making a point loudly)
BECAUSE HE BECAME SIN!!!!! He who knew no Sin BECAME SIN for us. Yes even U muslims.
AND not for the FACT OF THE SINS WE COMMITTED BUT THAT OUR NATURES WERE INCLINED TO SIN.
David says in Psalm 51:5 Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Its more of the SIN NATURE IN US that required more than the Blood of bulls to cleanse!
It required the Blood of God himself to CLEANSE our SIN NATURE that will lead to all sorts of Sin.
It doesnt mean that if you havent committed adultery means you are clean of that. But IN YOU is the potential to COMMIT ADULTERY. Thats the uncleaness that David asks to BLOT OUT in Pslams 51:1.

It isnt some simple matter of God looking at the book and say ok you made a slight error, your forgiven.
NO BUT JUDGEMENT IS TO BE MET OUT ON ALL SINNERS. Thus the reason why everyone who believes in jesus Christ can be redeemed is because His Righteous Blood Cleanses us. Any Human who accepts His Gift will receive it.

But you muslims dont.

Why would God need to die in order to make up for the nature of our sins. Why couldn't God just have created us without an inclination to sin in the first place. So your saying that God had to go through life on earth and the crucifiction just so that he can fix a mistake?

Now i ask you on the credibility on the Quran and muhammad.
Muhammad had a series of revelation which he claimed to be from God.
And he preaches the head of the matter thing.
Something about pillar and jihad etc.

But lets look at the rewards for Jihad.

SEVENTY WIVES?????? THATS ADULTERY CONTRARY TO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WHICH i hear quran agrees with first 5 book from the OT?

Ok i continue this another time GTG now

Adultery in the OT is defined as sex with a married woman whom your not married to. So, a few Muslims having more than one wife in heaven does not consitute adultery because all of those women are their wives. They are not having sex with anyone but their wives whom God himself has/will marry them to. Also, I'd like to state that if you are disputing polygamy in general and trying to say that a polygamous relationship is forbidden in the OT then you are wrong once again. Many ancient Israelites had multiple wives and concubines. Jacob was married to two women at the same time and he is the father of the Israelites.