Question about Hell from another thread.

[Timothew]

You have the message, even though you will not acknowledge it. Either way you are now responsible for what you have been "given."

As have you:
Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.

According to the Psalm, the LORD is good. If you believe He is not, you are mistaken.

 

[drich0150]

As have you:
Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.

According to the Psalm, the LORD is good. If you believe He is not, you are mistaken.

The Lord is Good according to His standard. There are many who do not think what He does is Good. My question asks, What if you find that God does things that YOU Personally do not believe that are Good. Can you still take Refuge in Him even if you personally judge Him using your own standards as not being "good?"

Without a doubt God is Good. The problem is that pride and self righteousness clouds our eyes to the true nature of God's goodness. The problem being, you believe you know what God's complete Goodness looks like. Again i ask, What if you are wrong or do not have the complete picture yet? Can you still love God if He does things outside of your comprehension of the term "Good?"

 

[Timothew]

There is a standard of what is good. It is not subjective.
I may be mistaken on some things, but torture is not good by anyone's standards.

It is not prideful to say "torture is bad, not torturing is good." That is common sense.
It is prideful to say "your eyes are clouded to God's nature if you don't believe God tortures people, like I believe."

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

The Lord is Good according to His standard. There are many who do not think what He does is Good. My question asks, What if you find that God does things that YOU Personally do not believe that are Good.

There's plenty of things in the Bible that lead me to believe God is not good. What real evidence to we have of God's goodness? Salvation? God was the one who made hell in the first place. And even if hell doesn't exist in the Dantean sense, judgement still awaits those who don't sycophantically worship God.

Also, look at God's laws and measure God's actions by his own laws. He fails miserably. Jealously, anger, hatred and murder are all condemned by God and yet God freely acknowledges that he is a jealous God. He admitted to hating Esau, and is prone to angry outbursts leading to the death of hundreds of thousands of people in the OT, possibly millions. At one point in the OT, Moses has to reason with God and persuade him not to wipe out the Israelites.

So really, why should I worship a God who doesn't walk his own talk?

Of course, I don't actually believe much of the OT happened as recorded. These were merely the writings of people who were struggling to define God in difficult times, so they presented God as having distinctly human emotions so people could relate to him easier. But the case still remains that the Yahweh presented in much of the OT is really not a God any upright person would want to associate with; and that's simply by measuring Yahweh against his own laws, not my own sense of morality.

Jesus, on the other hand, was totally different. He actually did obey the law properly. This is why I find it hard to believe that Jesus is a true representation of the angry, jealous Yahweh of the OT. They're entirely different. Jesus valued human life whereas Yahweh did not care about it; women, children, old people, babies - he would quite happily kill them all without a second thought. But Jesus was a true humanitarian - with the exception of his doctrine of eternal punishment of course.

 

[salida]

One either believes the bible or they don't. Read a book called 23 Minutes in Hell.

Is Hell Eternal? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
The Truth About Hell
The Place of Hell
The Good Test

God is a righteous Judge and His justice needs to be satisfied by having a penalty paid for our sins or "lawless deeds".

The only way that debt could be paid is 2 ways; if we pay it ourselves by suffering eternal separation from God or if God provided a substitute who had no sin debt of His own to take our penalty on the cross.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

God is a righteous Judge and His justice needs to be satisfied by having a penalty paid for our sins or "lawless deeds".

As I've said above, in the Bible God frequently broke his own laws; this means he is not a righteous judge. Why should I believe God is righteous and good if he cannot abide by his own moral code? For proof that God commits murder (a breach of the 6th Commandment) read this from Ezekiel;

Ezekiel 24:15-18

English Standard Version (ESV)

Ezekiel's Wife Dies

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke; yet you shall not mourn or weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died. And on the next morning I did as I was commanded.

God tells Ezekiel he is going to kill Ezekiel's wife, then does so. It's murder (with a full confession that would stand in any court of law). How does this make God good?

 

[razeontherock]

judgement still awaits those who don't sycophantically worship God.

You demonstrate you have no CLUE what worship means. (It can't be done by a sycophant)

He admitted to hating Esau, and is prone to angry outbursts At one point in the OT, Moses has to reason with God

So really, why should I worship a God who doesn't walk his own talk?

This is not only absurd, but foolish. All of it. Are you trying to seal your fate as a reprobate?

 

[razeontherock]

As I've said above, in the Bible God frequently broke his own laws; this means he is not a righteous judge. Why should I believe God is righteous and good if he cannot abide by his own moral code? For proof that God commits murder (a breach of the 6th Commandment) read this from Ezekiel;

God tells Ezekiel he is going to kill Ezekiel's wife, then does so. It's murder (with a full confession that would stand in any court of law). How does this make God good?

You go ahead and accuse God. Just realize that come Judgment day, no place will be found for the Sun. What makes you think YOU will be able to stand?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

You go ahead and accuse God. Just realize that come Judgment day, no place will be found for the Sun. What makes you think YOU will be able to stand?

Was the killing of Ezekiel's wife murder or not? If not, how was it justified? She posed no threat, and it isn't known whether she was a sinner or not. In all likelihood, being the wife of a prophet, she was probably a very pious women herself. Give me a good reason why I should not believe God broke his own 6th Commandment.

 

[drich0150]

There's plenty of things in the Bible that lead me to believe God is not good.

Which is the point I am trying to make with Tim. Our understanding of the term is subjective standard often times set by the culture and the generation we happen to be born in. You like Tim can only make this determination by judging God by your own standard of what Good is.

What real evidence to we have of God's goodness? Salvation?

No. God is "good" by default, and for no other reason. Being "Good" for God is not something He must strive for. Because He is infact the standard. Meaning Anything He does is Good by definition or default. Even if "we" like in your Opening Statement find reason to judge His actions as being bad.

God was the one who made hell in the first place.

On what Day did that happen? Hell is the absents of Creation. Hell is the void in which Creation was called out of. Being sent to Hell is being removed from God and what He has created. It is the only escape from the Omni present God.

And even if hell doesn't exist in the Dantean sense, judgment still awaits those who don't sycophantically worship God.

Agreed. But ask yourself what is being judged? Answer: Those who wish to be with God and those who do not. Granted those who do not generally would want all of what God has created, but just not God Himself.

To me that is like a gold digging wife. I am not saying their could not be good times to be shared with someone who only wants you for what you can provide, but at the same time there isn't enough to generally sustain a relationship like that for a life time let alone an eternity. So then the question becomes, What happens in an eternal relationship when the Gold digger has had enough and wants a divorce? Where can he/she go in all of creation to escape an omni-present God? Where is the mercy and love that forces a person to be made to stand in the presents and forced to serve someone in whom he hates?

Also, look at God's laws and measure God's actions by his own laws. He fails miserably. Jealously, anger, hatred and murder are all condemned by God and yet God freely acknowledges that he is a jealous God.

And you know what? Him being a Jealous God is good! Why? Because it is to His standards that all goodness is measured. Anything God wants or does is Good.

He admitted to hating Esau, and is prone to angry outbursts leading to the death of hundreds of thousands of people in the OT, possibly millions. At one point in the OT, Moses has to reason with God and persuade him not to wipe out the Israelites.

Amen, Preach it!

So really, why should I worship a God who doesn't walk his own talk?

Isn't it obvious? It is because the acts in of themselves are not intrinsically evil as you believe them to be. It is our usage of these hard emotions to suit our purposes or self righteousness, that makes them Evil. I will grant you that in our society it is always wrong to think badly of someone, but understand God does not yield to our societal laws/standards. Remember He is the standard to which all righteousness is built. Morality is the "goodieness" that we derive from a collective societal sense of righteousness. God is a God of Righteousness, not the God of popular morality (which btw seems to change from generation to generation.)

So in short you are judging God by what you think or what society has told you is right and not by God's actual "walk or Talk."

Of course, I don't actually believe much of the OT happened as recorded. These were merely the writings of people who were struggling to define God in difficult times, so they presented God as having distinctly human emotions so people could relate to him easier.

-Or- As the bible states We were indeed built in His own image, and share the same emotions He has Himself. Which makes sense if you look big picture.

But the case still remains that the Yahweh presented in much of the OT is really not a God any upright person would want to associate with; and that's simply by measuring Yahweh against his own laws, not my own sense of morality.

Which laws exactly?

Jesus, on the other hand, was totally different. He actually did obey the law properly. This is why I find it hard to believe that Jesus is a true representation of the angry, jealous Yahweh of the OT. They're entirely different. Jesus valued human life whereas Yahweh did not care about it; women, children, old people, babies - he would quite happily kill them all without a second thought. But Jesus was a true humanitarian - with the exception of his doctrine of eternal punishment of course.

John 1:1 places Jesus at the scene at the beginning of the OT. Christ's role in physical His life time was to spare us from that same vengeful wrath He dealt out in the OT. For in the OT The role of the Father was to dictate terms, and the Role of the Son was to carry out the will of the Father. So it would have been Christ Himself that carried out the wrath you speak of. Just like it was the Son who carried out the will of the Father on the Cross.

 

[razeontherock]

Was the killing of Ezekiel's wife murder or not? If not, how was it justified? She posed no threat, and it isn't known whether she was a sinner or not. In all likelihood, being the wife of a prophet, she was probably a very pious women herself. Give me a good reason why I should not believe God broke his own 6th Commandment.

Have you considered his servant, Job?

 

[drich0150]

There is a standard of what is good.

Agreed.

It is not subjective.

Disagree. Anyone who honestly looks at our societal practices or even at the OT can find scripture that does not agree with what we think to be "good."

I may be mistaken on some things, but torture is not good by anyone's standards.

straw man

It is not prideful to say "torture is bad, not torturing is good." That is common sense.

straw man

It is prideful to say "your eyes are clouded to God's nature if you don't believe God tortures people, like I believe."

Again you have created yet another straw man to argue. I have repeatedly said I do not know what God will do with those in Hell. (Why must you try and vilify my words to respond to them?) Why won't you answer my questions?

I have asked you over and over what will you do with God if He commits a sin by your standard? If you can not openly admit your heart felt response then know you do not have the relationship with God that is required of you.

I do not want my Father to burn in Hell forever, but at the same time I can yield my ideas of righteousness to the God of the bible. Meaning, no matter what God decides to do with those in Hell it will be accepted by me. He will still be my God even if I can not understand or see the value of eternal Damnation. I trust in Him no matter what He decides, even if it means He decides that I myself am not worthy of Heaven.

That is what It means to Love God with all of your;
Heart (That no one or nothing including the eternal state of your loved ones comes first)

All of your Mind( that you love God above the understanding you have built through study and earnest seeking)

Spirit (Beyond the need to preserve one's self)

Strength (With every physical aspect of your being)

If you can not love God beyond your understanding of Him for the sake of some ill fated loved ones then know you have Failed our Greatest Commandment.

Ask God to make it well with you, or make you into the person you need to be no matter what the cost, and your faithfulness will be rewarded. Otherwise know you may hear personally what Christ says in Mt.7 And know there are no other words that can be uttered that will bring so much pain and sadness.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Have you considered his servant, Job?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt Raze; I don't actually believe this story in Ezekiel happened literally. It's just a story. However, the author(s) did a poor job of describing Yahweh. Whoever wrote the book decided to include an absurd story in which God, for no ethical reason, decides to kill the wife of the prophet Ezekiel. This is a clear violation of God's own law.

Or I suppose you could go along with John Piper and say that God kills people simply because he can, because he's God, and he doesn't really need a good reason. I don't agree with Piper's position but at least he's honest about who he believes his God to be.

 

[drich0150]

Whoever wrote the book decided to include an absurd story in which God, for no ethical reason, decides to kill the wife of the prophet Ezekiel. This is a clear violation of God's own law.

A voilation of which law? Book chaper and verse please.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

A voilation of which law? Book chaper and verse please.

Exodus 20:13

English Standard Version (ESV)

13 “You shall not murder.


Now compare this to;


Ezekiel 24:15-18

English Standard Version (ESV)

Ezekiel's Wife Dies

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke; yet you shall not mourn or weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died. And on the next morning I did as I was commanded.


As I've said to Raze, I do not take this story literally, nor do I believe it happened in a historical sense. However, in the story the author of Ezekiel makes it quite clear that God first told Ezekiel that he was going to kill Ezekiel's wife and then the author tells us when Ezekiel's wife actually died. How is not a violation of Exodus 20:13? Or is God exempt from his own moral law (which cannot be the case because Jesus came to fulfil the law)?

 

[ChristianT]

Exodus 20:13

English Standard Version (ESV)

13 “You shall not murder.


Now compare this to;


Ezekiel 24:15-18

English Standard Version (ESV)

Ezekiel's Wife Dies

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke; yet you shall not mourn or weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died. And on the next morning I did as I was commanded.


As I've said to Raze, I do not take this story literally, nor do I believe it happened in a historical sense. However, the author of Ezekiel makes it quite clear that God first told Ezekiel that he was going to kill Ezekiel's wife and then the author tells us when Ezekiel's wife actually died. How is not a violation of Exodus 20:13? Or is God exempt from his own moral law (which cannot be the case because Jesus came to fulfil the law)?

That sounds a lot like she had an aneurism or something similar (of course for God's message of redemption and judgement on Israel).

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

That sounds a lot like she had an aneurism or something similar (of course for God's message of redemption and judgement on Israel).

So you completely deny that God said he would kill her? Seriously, how many times to have to link this before it sinks in.

Ezekiel 24:15-18

English Standard Version (ESV)

Ezekiel's Wife Dies

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke; yet you shall not mourn or weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died. And on the next morning I did as I was commanded.


The author of Ezekiel says God was going to kill the wife. It's there in the text. Why are you dodging this?

EDIT: According to Blue Letter Bible, the word "stroke" in verse 16 means;

1) blow, slaughter, plague, pestilence, strike, smite
a) blow (fatal stroke)
b) slaughter (of battle)
c) plague, pestilence (divine judgment)


She was struck down with something that must have killed he quite quickly. And God was the cause, according the story in Ezekiel.

 

[ChristianT]

So you completely deny that God said he would kill her?

I never said that.

Seriously, how many times to have to link this before it sinks in.

Ezekiel 24:15-18

English Standard Version (ESV)

Ezekiel's Wife Dies

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke; yet you shall not mourn or weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died. And on the next morning I did as I was commanded.


The author of Ezekiel says God was going to kill the wife. It's there in the text. Why are you dodging this?

Would not an aneurism kill a woman? Nonetheless, it doesn't demean Ezekiel if the physical actions didn't literally happen, as it is figurative of what is going to, what has, or what is happening to Israel and anyone else God saves through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I never said that.

Would not an aneurism kill a woman? Nonetheless, it doesn't demean Ezekiel if the physical actions didn't literally happen, as it is figurative of what is going to, what has, or what is happening to Israel and anyone else God saves through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

It doesn't matter what killed her? It was who killed her. God states quite clearly in Ezekiel 24:16 that he was going to kill Ezekiel's wife. He later struck her down with whatever and killed her. You're dodging the question of how this story violates the 6th Commandment - you shall not murder.

As I've said, I don't believe this story happened literally or historically. However, it is clear that the author didn't quite think this through; he makes God out to be a murderer. There is no indication in the text that Ezekiel's wife was in any way deserving of death. In fact, it's clear from the text that Ezekiel loved her very much ("I am about to take the delight of your eyes away" - v16).

 

[ChristianT]

murder |ˈmərdər|
noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

Also, if that doesn't clear it up, who is it, do you think, that makes really old people "go to sleep" by "natural causes?" Who is the natural cause? Why, then, is it any different if God made Ezekiel's wife "go to sleep"?